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How important is a matching # engine?

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  • How important is a matching # engine?

    How important is it to have a number matching engine? I know this is a very vague. So lets say you are looking at two Avanti both in the same condition. One matching engine and the other a nonmatching engine. How much different in price? Then say they are both being judged, what then? Thanks

  • #2
    This question has a whole LOT to do with the particular Car involved, with a Lark 4 Door Sedan, I don't see how it would matter.
    On the other hand an Avanti is all about it's special High Performance ENGINE and it's a slightly pricey Sports Car, so in this case I think it matters quite a bit. To some buyers it may not, and how much it is worth has everything to do with that.

    It would be hard to place a value on it, but it definitely needs to be a Real "R" numbered Engine with the all right parts on it.
    Maybe a rough guess would be minus $1000.00 probably depending on the total price as well.

    As far as being judged, we do not normally look for a Production Order to tell if it is the ORIGINAL Engine or not.
    Of course a Lark/Hawk or RS vs R numbered Engine might and SHOULD be noticed and deducted a few points for.

    Also it is VERY hard to find 2 cars with EXACTLY the same condition, there HAS to be some details that add more value to one over the other besides the Engine.
    Like the condition of the frame or hog troughs, Interior, Paint, Power Train, Options etc.
    Last edited by StudeRich; 04-18-2013, 04:00 PM.
    StudeRich
    Second Generation Stude Driver,
    Proud '54 Starliner Owner

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    • #3
      It might make more of a difference in value if the Lark originally came with an "R" engine.
      Originally posted by StudeRich View Post
      This question has a whole LOT to do with the particular Car involved, with a Lark 4 Door Sedan, I don't see how it would matter.
      On the other hand an Avanti is all about it's special High Performance ENGINE and it's a slightly pricey Sports Car, so in this case I think it matters quite a bit. To some buyers it may not, and how much it is worth has everything to do with that.

      It would be hard to place a value on it, but it definitely needs to be a Real "R" numbered Engine with the all right parts on it.
      Maybe a rough guess would be minus $1000.00 probably depending on the total price as well.

      As far as being judged, we do not normally look for a Production Order to tell if it is the ORIGINAL Engine or not.
      Of course a Lark/Hawk or RS vs R numbered Engine might and SHOULD be noticed and deducted a few points for.

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      • #4
        I think it is more important that it be the PROPER engine for the car. Other make engines transplanted in Studebakers is a definate turn off for a person looking for an original or slightly modified classic car. I have had more than several inquiries at car shows from people wanting to buy my Hawk but none have asked if it had matching numbers. Most were more interested in the price and overall condition.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by qsanford View Post
          It might make more of a difference in value if the Lark originally came with an "R" engine.
          Not exactly, because they were numbered as Jet Thrust Engines, JT, and JTS, that would be why I included ALL Lark Hawk Engines in my post, all are obviously WRONG, Std. 289 or JT. No matter if they LOOK like an Avanti Engine or not.
          StudeRich
          Second Generation Stude Driver,
          Proud '54 Starliner Owner

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          • #6
            E. Davis has hit the nail on the head; a Buick engine in a Speedster is not inspiring. I will say that on My Corvette a matching numbers car makes a really silly difference. Thats due to what I think is the very illogical decision by Chevy to number / date almost every part and serial number. The key word in Mr. Davis's answer is PROPER imho.


            Originally posted by E. Davis View Post
            I think it is more important that it be the PROPER engine for the car. Other make engines transplanted in Studebakers is a definate turn off for a person looking for an original or slightly modified classic car. I have had more than several inquiries at car shows from people wanting to buy my Hawk but none have asked if it had matching numbers. Most were more interested in the price and overall condition.
            Life isn't about how to survive the storm, but how to dance in the rain !

            http://sites.google.com/site/intrigu...tivehistories/

            (/url) https://goo.gl/photos/ABBDQLgZk9DyJGgr5

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            • #7
              TMAN0950 has the 63 R1 Skytop Lark 1 of 2 made for 63 on e-bay.. So I'd say the value of him finding the original motor to his car was monumental!

              Actually the way he put it He found the R1 engine for his Hawk and then he found the car. So for TMAN, initially it was not important that his Hawk have a numbers matching car, but like me, wants the more powerful motor.

              Here is the problem with collectors. I think he has a cool car. I like Larks. I like most years of Larks, but like many collectors, just are not to fond of 4 doors.
              If that were 2 door, or even had more factory 'R' goodies on the car like a 160 mph speedo, Bucket seat, 4 speed I'd get the Kids college fund out to get it.
              There is another 63 2dr 'R' Lark up Northwest that has this same issue, lack of R goodies.
              So to have a matching number pedigree R car 4 door Skytop Lark is the balancing act of the particular buyer.

              People must be drooling over the R1 motor and asking to separate, but I agree, he should keep the two together.

              I truly sold an airplane engine that included an airplane.

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              • #8
                There are some who will agree with me, and there are others who wont, but here it goes...

                Are there some cars/trucks that loose value without their original engine? Well, of course!!!
                Are there some cars/trucks that have no value without their orginal engine? Maybe.

                I believe that if you are lucky enough to still have the orginal engine in your car- no matter what it is- every effort should be made to keep the two together. It doesn't have to live under the hood, but don't toss it just 'cuz. Preserve it and stash it under the bench for the day you sell, should that day ever come. Why? Well- one day it might be worth that much more to the next owner or the one after them. These days StudeFolks don't tend to care unless it's one of those 'high end' rides as have already been mentioned, but one day the rest will catch up to where other makes are now.
                And when that happens- the numbers will matter.







                StudeDave '57
                StudeDave '57
                US Navy (retired)

                3rd Generation Stude owner/driver
                SDC Member since 1985

                past President
                Whatcom County Chapter SDC
                San Diego Chapter SDC

                past Vice President
                San Diego Chapter SDC
                North Florida Chapter SDC

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                • #9
                  Stude Dave57:

                  I could not agree more, there was a day matching numbers did not matter...... today and in the future it will matter, matter will be $$$$.
                  It is an addiction!

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                  • #10
                    My 64 full package R-2 super hawk yes my 63 lark standard with clone R-l no and so on and so on.
                    Candbstudebakers
                    Castro Valley,
                    California


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                    • #11
                      If factory production orders were not available for Studebakers, then original engine numbers would have little significance. But since the PO's ARE readily available.....in My opinion it DOES carry some weight to be able to say and verify that the engine in ANY Studebaker model was installed in that car/truck when it was 'born'. (Monetary value?....maybe...Historical value?.....definitely!)
                      Last edited by SN-60; 04-18-2013, 06:51 PM.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by StudeDave57 View Post
                        There are some who will agree with me, and there are others who wont, but here it goes...

                        Are there some cars/trucks that loose value without their original engine? Well, of course!!!
                        Are there some cars/trucks that have no value without their orginal engine? Maybe.

                        I believe that if you are lucky enough to still have the orginal engine in your car- no matter what it is- every effort should be made to keep the two together. It doesn't have to live under the hood, but don't toss it just 'cuz. Preserve it and stash it under the bench for the day you sell, should that day ever come. Why? Well- one day it might be worth that much more to the next owner or the one after them. These days StudeFolks don't tend to care unless it's one of those 'high end' rides as have already been mentioned, but one day the rest will catch up to where other makes are now.
                        And when that happens- the numbers will matter.
                        Dave, VERY well said. My next door neighbor restored a '67 Mustang which originally had a 289, and he replaced it with a modern Ford V6 of some sort. I tried to convince him to keep the original 289 for that very reason, but I think he did end up selling it off.

                        Craig

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                        • #13
                          It matters to me. I've been looking for Avanti engine RS-1581 for 4 years now...
                          edp/NC
                          \'63 Avanti
                          \'66 Commander

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                          • #14
                            Pretty much agree all around. If you were to find the one '51 Commander business coupe and the engine it had matched the build sheet, that's significant. If you have a '63 Cruiser with a 289 that doesn't match there is no significant difference. Install a 259 in the Cruiser and you've created a bastard. Install a 289 in a '53 Coupe and keep the original 232 under wraps=value added.
                            "All attempts to 'rise above the issue' are simply an excuse to avoid it profitably." --Dick Gregory

                            Brad Johnson, SDC since 1975, ASC since 1990
                            Pine Grove Mills, Pa.
                            '33 Rockne 10,
                            '51 Commander Starlight,
                            '53 Commander Starlight "Désirée",
                            '56 Sky Hawk

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                            • #15
                              Any one looking for R-1238, it is located here:
                              http://www.ebay.com/itm/STUDEBAKER-R...-/281095302764

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