Any SKYTOP GTs out there? UPDATE

[studegary]

The factory offered the Skytop on all cars - never seen one on a GT Hawk (or any Hawk) - WOW! That makes a BIG hole!

Would have to say, I am jealous!

Drew

What do you base your statement:"The factory offered the Skytop on all cars..." on? Do you have Studebaker factory literature that supports your position?

I remember the Skytop as only being available on Lark hardtops, two door sedans and four door sedans (no wagons, Hawks, Avantis, trucks) for 1961-1963 model years. The factory literature that I took a quick look at supports this.

I have owned two Skytops, but do not consider myself to be an "expert" on them. Perhaps the guy that has the Skytop registry will chime in.

[r1lark]

Here is a picture of a clover leaf stamp on a Studebaker block. It is my understanding a clover leaf block means that it is a replacement block. Also pictured is a block with a keystone which denotes the block was heavy duty. My 1963 R1 Wagonaire has a keystone on the block and it is the original engine with the correct engine number.

The clover leaf designates a 'heavy duty' engine. The heavy duty (aluminum cam gear, heavy duty main/rod bearings, chrome top rings, HD valves, HD springs, valve rotators, etc depending on the year and engine style) replacement shortblocks had the cloverleaf stamp. I am not sure, however, if the production (ie, installed on the assembly line) heavy duty truck engines had the cloverleaf stamp or not; the HD truck engines did have a different digit in the first position of the engine number to differentiate the 'standard' duty engine from the heavy duty engine.

The keystone mark is an inspectors mark, and have been found on both replacement and production engines.

Would like to see a picture of the R1 with the cloverleaf stamp if you have one handy.

[DEEPNHOCK]

Skytops (to me) are like body piercings.....

Like I told my daughters...
It's hard enough to get the oem holes to work right.
So why add more holes? It's just more trouble.
Jeff

[jclary]

Hey jimmijim, I have to agree about the roof. I've got my Sawzall ready to cut that old hole in the roof off of there and start fresh.

OH MY! How 'bout a little Studebaker forensics before you start chopping away. I have always thought the stainless steel bows in the headliner of the Hawks was a very classy touch and know that with the Skytop the bows had to go. However, if this car got the treatment as a factory order...I would think that would "trump" trashing it. Anything that makes one of these elegant birds "special" is a plus.

In addition, I am thinking about all the other bad things that could happen if the saw slipped, the welding jig moved, or somebody measured twice and still cut wrong...just saying...

[sals54]

Hey guys, jimmijim is a kidder, as am I. No cutting or torching is going on for this roof. We were just yankin each other's chains.
I will be requesting a purchase order for this car from the Museum. Then we'll see if its factory or dealer.

[sals54]

As far as the factory "not offering" Skytops on GTs, I believe its been noted here on several occasions that Studebaker did all sorts of things out of the ordinary, especially in its last years of production. I'm hoping someone called in a favor for a customer and had this car factory made special for them. That would be waaaay coooool.

[8E45E]

As far as the factory "not offering" Skytops on GTs, I believe its been noted here on several occasions that Studebaker did all sorts of things out of the ordinary, especially in its last years of production. I'm hoping someone called in a favor for a customer and had this car factory made special for them. That would be waaaay coooool.

Yes, they certainly did! That's why a copy of the build sheet is in order.

Craig

[kurtruk]

"I'm hoping someone called in a favor for a customer and had this car factory made special for them. That would be waaaay coooool."

Yes it would.

[StudeRich]

Randy, a clover-leaf block is one that denotes an engine built to heavy-duty specifications.
It simply has a little clover leaf stamped into the machined pad where the engine's serial number is normally stamped. I'm sorry I don't have a photo to attach, but the clover leaf is about the same size as the numbers and letters you commonly see stamped on that pad.
There may or may not be other digits stamped there as well, depending on whether the engine was built for the production line or for service stock to be shipped out and used as a replacement engine. BP

This is a very interesting scenario, I had thought that these H.D. Engines that have the clover leaf stamp would all be replacement Block and Piston Assy's. and maybe some short blocks which I have seen many of in the Zone Warehouses and Dealers. They of course had no Serial Numbers.
I did however realize there are (2) other very rare options however

An Engine with BOTH is very rare. It would seem the only way you would have a H.D. Car engine in this car with a Serial Number, would be:
(1) If it was removed from another car that was a H.D. Sedan or Wagon for Commercial use or Police, Taxi. Unless it was a very, very special factory order on this or some car.

We already know from the Receipt history that it is NOT the original Engine for this car, which the build slip will prove. UNLESS, option #2 happened.
That would be IF a Dealer did the replacement the correct way that rarely happened, which is to use the proper correct size stamp dies available to them from the factory to stamp the new engine with the original Serial Number.

Unlike the Truck Engines, Car Engines had no other way to I.D. the H.D. ones except the cloverleaf.

The Keystone stamp on any Engine block simply means it was one of the Engines that got a full inspection in the Foundry and could not mean a H.D. Engine, an example is in the case of the R1 that StudeMichael has in post #43, it already IS the equivalent of a H.D. Engine and more, being a Jet Thrust Engine, a special H.D. mark is unnecessary.

[sals54]

I decided to repeat this post from above to illustrate that this car did indeed have the block replaced. It was through a FIAT Dealer that had been a former Studebaker Dealer. "Ben A Begier Co." in San Leandro CA. The receipt is dated 1972 and still carries the Studebaker name on the top of the paperwork.

"Another interesting update on the GT. While going through the receipts, I found the reason for the Clover Leaf Block.
At 48,000 miles, in 1972, a new short block was installed as part of a major overhaul which included generator, carb, clutch, valve job etc etc. In 1972 dollars, he spent $900 on the rebuild.

New update: At 96,000 miles, in 1980, another engine rebuild was done. Bored .10, new clutch and pressure plate, carb overhauled again, and starter rebuilt. 1980 dollars, he spent $1,700 on the rebuild.

New new update: At unknown mileage, in 1994, another engine rebuild was done. Full master kit of pistons, crank, cam, timing etc etc. 1994 dollars, he spent $2600 on the rebuild.

There's a pile of receipts from the decades of ownership that amount to many thousands of dollars, starting in the 60s.

Now, he is either quite meticulous about his engines, or he drives the bejeebers out of his car and destroys an engine in far fewer miles than I ever have. All I know is that the car right now runs very well and I'm hoping to keep it that way."

[laughinlark]

Sal, The last time I saw the Hawk it wasn't with the original owner. But I do remember talking with the original owner as a teen. It was in the early 80's when I pulled up in my 61 Lark and talked with the gentleman. He was talking about a new engine and how he like driving the Hawk to the bay area frequently. I think he worked down there a lot and had another residence or something like that. Its a 600 mile round trip so mileage adds up quick. At that time I was putting 1000 mile a week on my Lark commuting.

Gordon S

[drew72mgb]

What do you base your statement:"The factory offered the Skytop on all cars..." on? Do you have Studebaker factory literature that supports your position?

I remember the Skytop as only being available on Lark hardtops, two door sedans and four door sedans (no wagons, Hawks, Avantis, trucks) for 1961-1963 model years. The factory literature that I took a quick look at supports this.

I have owned two Skytops, but do not consider myself to be an "expert" on them. Perhaps the guy that has the Skytop registry will chime in.

I typed that comment from memory - I do own several 1963 Studebaker literature pieces - but, I will need to review them to see if I mis-spoke. If I did, I am soory to have mislead persons - definately NOT my intention.

With the size of the skytop - I doubt it would fit on a pick-up. With a roll-over bar inside the top of an Avanti - a Skytop probably would not fit. Same with a 1963 Wagonaire.

Having grown-up with a Studebaker Lark Daytona - 1963 - with a Skytop installed - I have fond memories of this car. The Skytop option is a waaay cool option on ANY CAR. My parents also owned a 1963 VW Sunroof Sedan, which was equipped with a Golde top, as well.

And, the 1963 Lark Daytona we owned was sold just as I got my driver's license. This Lark was Avanti R-1 equipped - Ermine White, White top, Red interior - researched and restored by Bill Pressler.

I will do some searching - to correct the above - if need be.

Drew

[studegary]

This is a very interesting scenario, I had thought that these H.D. Engines that have the clover leaf stamp would all be replacement Block and Piston Assy's. and maybe some short blocks which I have seen many of in the Zone Warehouses and Dealers. They of course had no Serial Numbers.
I did however realize there are (2) other very rare options however

An Engine with BOTH is very rare. It would seem the only way you would have a H.D. Car engine in this car with a Serial Number, would be:
(1) If it was removed from another car that was a H.D. Sedan or Wagon for Commercial use or Police, Taxi. Unless it was a very, very special factory order on this or some car.

We already know from the Receipt history that it is NOT the original Engine for this car, which the build slip will prove. UNLESS, option #2 happened.
That would be IF a Dealer did the replacement the correct way that rarely happened, which is to use the proper correct size stamp dies available to them from the factory to stamp the new engine with the original Serial Number.

Unlike the Truck Engines, Car Engines had no other way to I.D. the H.D. ones except the cloverleaf.

The Keystone stamp on any Engine block simply means it was one of the Engines that got a full inspection in the Foundry and could not mean a H.D. Engine, an example is in the case of the R1 that StudeMichael has in post #43, it already IS the equivalent of a H.D. Engine and more, being a Jet Thrust Engine, a special H.D. mark is unnecessary.

From the 1960s, I remember a wagon that was ordered to be a rural mail delivery vehicle. It had the heavy duty V8 and water cooled AT from the factory. I remember seeing it at Knight's Garage in Wappingers Falls, NY, but I do not know if they delivered it new or just serviced it. It was used for mail delivery in this area for many years/miles. It used to be that mail carriers used their own vehicles. Some, like Bob A., still do, but in this area they now use Government mail vans.

[sals54]

Production Order is on its way... I'm on pins and needles. I'll be a stark raving lunatic waiting several weeks for this thing to come. Is the Museum still using IBM punch cards and teletype machines to find this stuff? Or do they send a guy through an Indiana Jones type warehouse, with a flashlight, looking for it?

[StudeRich]

I think they send a one legged Guy riding in a Studebaker Goat Wagon to go up and down the isles looking with a candle!!