Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Could a Studebaker have won a championship

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Could a Studebaker have won a championship

    I was watching the NASCAR review show today. And the question of Dodge leaving NASCAR,
    even if they won the championship. And the remaining effort to do so. And Larry Mac said
    it wouldn't matter if it was a Studebaker a team in the chase would try, no matter what.
    (i probably don't have that quote completely right, as it's from memory)

    So my question is, under NASCAR rules during the period of manufacturer. With the body, weight, running gear and wheelbase, being what it was at that time. And the naturally aspirated engines available. Could Studebaker realistically have been competitive? And possibly have won a championship.

  • #2
    What years are we talking here? During the '50s I would say yes, in fact a few Studebaker's even ran in Nascar and I know at least one ran in the Daytona 500. I wish Studebaker would have ran a race team in the '60s because I think something like an R3 Challenger (like the PBR but set up for circle track racing) could have gave Richard Petty a run for his money.
    Chris Dresbach

    Comment


    • #3
      To: bridgegaurd,----- It would have been neat to see Studebaker compete back then (for sure!) but the only engines they had that would have had a chance against the 400 plus cubic inch
      competition were supercharged.....and I believe the NASCAR rules forbade blowers.

      Comment


      • #4
        I believe Frank Mundy won three NASCAR races behind the wheel of a '51 Commander Starlight. Started at least one of them from the pole.

        http://www.classiccar.com/forum/disc...aker-record/p1
        "All attempts to 'rise above the issue' are simply an excuse to avoid it profitably." --Dick Gregory

        Brad Johnson, SDC since 1975, ASC since 1990
        Pine Grove Mills, Pa.
        '33 Rockne 10,
        '51 Commander Starlight,
        '53 Commander Starlight "Désirée",
        '56 Sky Hawk

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by SN-60 View Post
          To: bridgegaurd,----- It would have been neat to see Studebaker compete back then (for sure!) but the only engines they had that would have had a chance against the 400 plus cubic inch
          competition were supercharged.....and I believe the NASCAR rules forbade blowers.
          There was always the R4, that would have beed legal I would guess?
          Chris Dresbach

          Comment


          • #6
            To: Chris Dresbach,----The R4 was rated at 280 HP. I have no idea what it really produced (Maybe 350HP?). But that's no where near the power levels of a 426 CI Dodge-Plymouth or a 427 CI Ford
            or Chevrolet. The R3 would have got them much closer, but once again it had the supercharger. If a supercharger were legal in NASCAR, the model that Studebaker probably would have used was their
            GT Hawk,....which just may have had better aerodynamics then the full size Fords, Chevys, and Dodge-Plymouths.

            Comment


            • #7
              Remember, Studebaker's little V8 didn't have a ghost of a chance of playing with the big boys without an equilizer; that's why they used a supercharger. The problem with the Paxton is it wouldn't have a hope of lasting 500 miles at full boost, even if NASCAR had a handicap factor allowing small V8s to use it. If anyone doubts that it wouldn't last, check out the PSMCDrag report. Ted and George were changing blower belts after 1/4-mile runs.

              jack vines
              Last edited by PackardV8; 09-17-2012, 09:30 PM.
              PackardV8

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by bridgegaurd
                So my question is, under NASCAR rules during the period of manufacturer. With the body, weight, running gear and wheelbase, being what it was at that time. And the naturally aspirated engines available. Could Studebaker realistically have been competitive? And possibly have won a championship.
                Maybe in the '55-'57 period with the 289 while Chevy and Ford were stiil competing with their small displacement egines.
                Even at that time the Stude V-8 could have been easily expanded to beyond 300 cu. in. (I recall a '60's artical that stated that the engines basic archetecture, with a few core changes would have allowed for over 400 inches) And real 'power pack' large port heads could have been introduced at any time Studebaker had so desired.
                But biggest the problem with this was that Studebaker's upper managment of those days had much more 'enthusiasim' for promoting 'Economy Runs' than going out and ripping up the competition on the nations race tracks.
                With very few exceptions, most of the Studebaker's of the 50's were promoted, produced, and publicly percieved by the buying public as practical 'economy cars'. In other words, vehicles suited to grampa's and grandma's, retired school marms, and as a teenage girls first car.

                It didn't at all have to be that way. Sticking in the 289 didn't cost significantly more than the virtually identical 259. The police 'Marshall' V-8 option of the '56-'57 period was what should have been out on the tracks and going into the highest percentage of their sedan production in that emerging post-war 'youth' market.
                The 'old folks' would have bought it, if it had been standard and on the lots, as they certainly proved by abandoning Studebaker products in droves, and buying the competitors ever increasing larger and more powerful engines and flashier models.
                At that time, an available 'tri-power' or 'dual-quad' and finned aluminum valve cover option would have been very cheap 'bang for the buck' in entirely altering public perceptions of the Company's products. Seems every major Auto manufacturer -except- Studebaker (and Rambler) had figured that out.
                _It wasn't needed for engine power. It was needed for marketplace power.
                The antique and wimpy Champion flathead 6 as the base HAWK engine? What the HE double hockey sticks were they thinking of???
                All it ever did was dilute the Hawk name and image, and to a great degree confirm to anyone who ever drove one, that a Studebaker Hawk was NOT a performance or luxury car, nor a viable Studebaker answer to the T-birds or Impala's of the day.

                In the end, it was Studebaker's management that chose their market, that chose what types of vehicles they would produce, and how they were equipped, priced, and marketed.
                The demise of their Automotive business was the result of a lot of short-sighted and bad business decisions that diluted the Companies prestiege, and for which no one else was responsible.
                Last edited by Jessie J.; 09-18-2012, 07:46 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by bridgegaurd View Post
                  I was watching the NASCAR review show today. And the question of Dodge leaving NASCAR,
                  even if they won the championship. And the remaining effort to do so. And Larry Mac said
                  it wouldn't matter if it was a Studebaker a team in the chase would try, no matter what.
                  (i probably don't have that quote completely right, as it's from memory)

                  So my question is, under NASCAR rules during the period of manufacturer. With the body, weight, running gear and wheelbase, being what it was at that time. And the naturally aspirated engines available. Could Studebaker realistically have been competitive? And possibly have won a championship.
                  Frank Mundy finished 5th in NASCAR points in the 1951 season. Two of his three wins that year came behind the wheel of the #23 Studebaker Commander owned by W. Perry Smith, the Studebaker dealer in Columbia, SC. Had Perry Smith not lost his life in his airplane crash in December 1951 the 1952 racing season effort likely would have been even more potent and successful.
                  sigpicBob Coolidge
                  DeLand, FL

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Jessie J. View Post
                    Maybe in the '55-'57 period with the 289 while Chevy and Ford were stiil competing with their small displacement egines.
                    So the answer would be yes, especially during that time period. And with a a few good parts, from the factory and someone at the home office, to see the value of speed performance advertisement. By the time AMC found it, bad decisions, a gas crisis,and the loss of product control to Renault, doomed the company and the program.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Jessie J. View Post
                      It didn't at all have to be that way. Sticking in the 289 didn't cost significantly more than the virtually identical 259. The police 'Marshall' V-8 option of the '56-'57 period was what should have been out on the tracks and going into the highest percentage of their sedan production in that emerging post-war 'youth' market.

                      .
                      The 289 was available in sedans in 1956-1957. In fact, the four barrel version of the 289 was standard equipment in the President Classic.
                      Gary L.
                      Wappinger, NY

                      SDC member since 1968
                      Studebaker enthusiast much longer

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by PackardV8 View Post
                        Remember, Studebaker's little V8 didn't have a ghost of a chance of playing with the big boys without an equalizer; that's why they used a supercharger. jack vines
                        Really?

                        At the 2012 Pure Stock Muscle Car Drag Race, Steve Doerschlag ran 7 runs with his unsupercharged R1 Commander 2-door. He missed shifts on two of the runs, skewing an average unnecessarily.

                        If we take his five "normal" runs, they had an average ET of 14.606.

                        His competitor in the shootouts was a 1970 Malibu SS396, one of the big blocks from which unsupercharged Studebakers are supposed to shrink and flee in terror.

                        The Malibu's three shootout runs averaged 14.539.

                        Hmmm.....a 14.606 average versus a 14.539 average....and furthermore, Steve's best ET was 14.465, whereas the Malibu's best ET, at least in the shootouts, was 14.530.

                        That's a mighty small ghost. (Personally, I can't even "see" it.) BP
                        We've got to quit saying, "How stupid can you be?" Too many people are taking it as a challenge.

                        Ayn Rand:
                        "You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality."

                        G. K. Chesterton: This triangle of truisms, of father, mother, and child, cannot be destroyed; it can only destroy those civilizations which disregard it.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          But don't NASCAR races last a little bit longer then 14 seconds???






                          StudeDave '57
                          StudeDave '57
                          US Navy (retired)

                          3rd Generation Stude owner/driver
                          SDC Member since 1985

                          past President
                          Whatcom County Chapter SDC
                          San Diego Chapter SDC

                          past Vice President
                          San Diego Chapter SDC
                          North Florida Chapter SDC

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by StudeDave57 View Post
                            But don't NASCAR races last a little bit longer then 14 seconds???
                            StudeDave '57
                            Sure, Dave...but without a supercharger, the longevity of the supercharger or blower belts would not be an issue! BP

                            We've got to quit saying, "How stupid can you be?" Too many people are taking it as a challenge.

                            Ayn Rand:
                            "You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality."

                            G. K. Chesterton: This triangle of truisms, of father, mother, and child, cannot be destroyed; it can only destroy those civilizations which disregard it.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by BobPalma View Post
                              Sure, Dave...but without a supercharger, the longevity of the supercharger or blower belts would not be an issue! BP

                              Use green industrial belts, trust me on why I know that trick...
                              On a typical lawn tractor racing season I would tear up about 4 to 5 common black belts a year. This year I switched to green belts and a single one has lasted me the whole season!!
                              Chris Dresbach

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X