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A 1963 Super Hawk on ebay?

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  • A 1963 Super Hawk on ebay?

    Anyone have any info on this car? Notice the Serial number plate on the door post? Is it just me or does something seem fishy here?

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1963-...item2eba948f7d

    Joe
    sigpic

    1962 Daytona
    1964 Cruiser
    And a few others

  • #2
    Joe, this car has been on e-bay before and we've discussed it here each time. As the first serial-numbered car of the 1963 run, the Serial Number font and being held on with sheet-metal screws is probably legit and not to be feared or questioned if everything else is in order, and it appears to be.

    However, the owner insists on calling it a Super Hawk, which it is not. It is a legitimate, factory R2-powered Hawk, but the complete Super Package would not come along until about six months after this car was built. BP
    We've got to quit saying, "How stupid can you be?" Too many people are taking it as a challenge.

    Ayn Rand:
    "You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality."

    G. K. Chesterton: This triangle of truisms, of father, mother, and child, cannot be destroyed; it can only destroy those civilizations which disregard it.

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    • #3
      I would be a little worried about the car. In the one photo, it shows to be running at 2400 rpms with the temp gauge pegged and the oil pressure at zero...
      Last edited by 62champ; 01-10-2012, 06:43 PM.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by 62champ View Post
        I would be a little worried about the car. In the one photo, it shows to be running at 2400 rpms with the temp gauge pegged and the oil pressure at zero...
        Is there a problem? <GGG> BP
        We've got to quit saying, "How stupid can you be?" Too many people are taking it as a challenge.

        Ayn Rand:
        "You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality."

        G. K. Chesterton: This triangle of truisms, of father, mother, and child, cannot be destroyed; it can only destroy those civilizations which disregard it.

        Comment


        • #5
          Although it appears that the key is NOT in the ignition!! So, maybe some electrical "issues"??

          Jim
          "We can't all be Heroes, Some us just need to stand on the curb and clap as they go by" Will Rogers

          We will provide the curb for you to stand on and clap!


          Indy Honor Flight www.IndyHonorFlight.org

          As of Veterans Day 2017, IHF has flown 2,450 WWII, Korean, and Vietnam Veterans to Washington DC at NO charge! to see
          their Memorials!

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          • #6
            Only problem might be if there is major internal issues in that metal thing under the hood

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            • #7
              Originally posted by BobPalma View Post
              As the first serial-numbered car of the 1963 run, the Serial Number font and being held on with sheet-metal screws is probably legit and not to be feared or questioned if everything else is in order, and it appears to be.
              That's exactly what made me suspicious. Bob, I could be wrong but assuming it is the correct serial number I really don't believe that plate is original. I've never seen that font on a Stude plate or the use of "1" rather than "I" for the number one.

              Joe
              Last edited by irish; 01-10-2012, 07:15 PM.
              sigpic

              1962 Daytona
              1964 Cruiser
              And a few others

              Comment


              • #8
                Good ole Bob, Now thats funny stuff right there !

                Dean.
                Originally posted by BobPalma View Post
                Is there a problem? <GGG> BP

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                • #9
                  The screw heads on the serial plate don't match, either.

                  It's a decent R2 4 speed Hawk, and I really like the red/white interior. I'd buy it based on the car. Who cares about the serial plate. It's only used for registration anyways.

                  Now the "Corvette" guys are probably gonna lecture me on how the plate adds provenance.. or something. <grin> I'd bet the exhaust clamps aren't angled right, either.

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                  • #10
                    In SOME states - Kansas, for example - they can be really picky about that plate.
                    My brother bought a 1964 Daytona in Iowa, in about 1991 - registered it in Arkansas, moved to Conn., where he was forced to do some mechanical work to the E-brake for it to pass inspection and get licensed. Then, he moved to Kansas - the vehicle inspection station refused to do the paper work - and made im take the car to the Trooper Headquarter / Inspection Station. They (the troopers) put the car up on a hoist and started to look for the secret places where the VIN got stamped - and they looked for several HOURS. With the head supervisor telling my brother that they could confiscate the car - and/ or refuse registration in Kansas.

                    The Daytona was Bordeux Red from the factory, with disc brakes and black interior - my brother had the factory build record - and a previous owner had installed an Avanti R1 (1963), and repainted it a dark red - the masking job on the VIN tag was less than perfect. It was one of those - that were punched for rivets, but was spot welded (crooked, too!), and then the masking job was crooked, as well. The Inspection for Kansas is a visual - does the paperwork match the car - and does anything LOOK "wrong"?

                    My brother sold this decent Daytona when he bought an Avanti II - the new owners paid a relative to "restore" it - it got taken apart, they got taken for a ride - and the car went "away". Parted out over Craigslist. A real SHAME.

                    Drew

                    PS - "seller is responsible for transportation" THAT is a FIRST - usually it is the BUYER that is responsible...
                    Last edited by drew72mgb; 01-11-2012, 07:19 AM.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by BobPalma View Post
                      Joe, this car has been on e-bay before and we've discussed it here each time. As the first serial-numbered car of the 1963 run, the Serial Number font and being held on with sheet-metal screws is probably legit and not to be feared or questioned if everything else is in order, and it appears to be.

                      However, the owner insists on calling it a Super Hawk, which it is not. It is a legitimate, factory R2-powered Hawk, but the complete Super Package would not come along until about six months after this car was built. BP
                      Why would Studebaker change the font that they had used for a few years for one car ? IMHO opinion, that plate is home made reproduction even though the car might itself might be legit. I personally would hesitate to bid without some strong documentation on how the serial plate was lost or why Studebaker made a "one off" plate.

                      Also, why would the first car have the fuel return line from the fuel filter when that was a much later upgrade ?
                      Last edited by JDP; 01-11-2012, 07:34 AM.
                      JDP Maryland

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by JDP View Post
                        Why would Studebaker change the font that they had used for a few years for one car ? IMHO opinion, that plate is home made reproduction even though the car might itself might be legit. I personally would hesitate to bid without some strong documentation on how the serial plate was lost or why Studebaker made a "one off" plate.

                        Also, why would the first car have the fuel return line from the fuel filter when that was a much later upgrade ?
                        Nelson Bove has probably seen more "first off" and very early 1963s and 1964s than both of us combined, John!

                        It's Nels' opinion that the plate is probably legit. Based on what he knows and what he's seen and the research he's done, I believe his evaluation. One thing's for sure; if it is really a dry, low mileage car, there ought to be some secret serial number visible on the frame.

                        The car's been around all these years, so an upgrade to a subsequent fuel line arrangemnt would be entirely possible, too. BP

                        We've got to quit saying, "How stupid can you be?" Too many people are taking it as a challenge.

                        Ayn Rand:
                        "You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality."

                        G. K. Chesterton: This triangle of truisms, of father, mother, and child, cannot be destroyed; it can only destroy those civilizations which disregard it.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I have seen a few anal "restorers" that remove serial plates and door tags so they can paint the firewall, door jamb etc without leaving unsightly masking evidence. Once removed, the plate becomes highly vulnerable to getting "lost". Yes, it happens.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by JDP View Post
                            Why would Studebaker change the font that they had used for a few years for one car ? IMHO opinion, that plate is home made reproduction even though the car might itself might be legit. I personally would hesitate to bid without some strong documentation on how the serial plate was lost or why Studebaker made a "one off" plate.
                            The depth of the stamping, plus the significant deformation of the plate in the stamped areas makes me wonder if this is actually an alumimum plate, instead of stainless steel. An onsite inspection of the car would answer this question, which if I was interested in bidding I would certainly do. If it is aluminum, why would Studebaker go to the trouble of making an aluminum serial number plate when they would have had thousands and thousands of stainless ones? Not condeming nor authenticating this car, just asking a question. It's a beautiful car, and I'd love to have it in my garage!
                            Last edited by r1lark; 01-11-2012, 08:34 AM. Reason: added picture
                            Paul
                            Winston-Salem, NC
                            Visit The Studebaker Skytop Registry website at: www.studebakerskytop.com

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by BobPalma View Post
                              Nelson Bove has probably seen more "first off" and very early 1963s and 1964s than both of us combined, John!

                              It's Nels' opinion that the plate is probably legit. Based on what he knows and what he's seen and the research he's done, I believe his evaluation. One thing's for sure; if it is really a dry, low mileage car, there ought to be some secret serial number visible on the frame.

                              The car's been around all these years, so an upgrade to a subsequent fuel line arrangemnt would be entirely possible, too. BP

                              I certainly respect his opinion, but would still ask what documentation forms that opinion. Even if Studebaker engineering made the car for example, why use a different plate blank and font than what was in use at the time and attach it with mismatched screws.

                              If you are bidding on what is represented as a important historical car,opinions will count for little if a dispute arises over that serial plate. The wrong plate blank, the wrong font, and mismatched screws may well raise questions well after Nels and me are long gone on a car as unique as number one.

                              I intend no disrespect to anyone, especially Nels, but am at least curious as to how that serial plate came to be.
                              JDP Maryland

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