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  • #16
    Greetings,
    It has amazed me for quite some time all the errors that creep into our literature. I have been hoping for some time that someone with KNOWLEDGE of the subject will undertake a writing of the speed record efforts by Studebaker in the early '60s (someone in the SDC?). 41 Frank states that the subject article discusses the "speedrecords of the R-2 cars." A couple of years ago I undertook a fairly indepth look at the records set by Studebaker including a couple of magazine articles of the time and came to the conclusion (admittedly not DEFINITIVE) that no R-2 engined cars set any records. The cars apparently which did set the records were: a six cylinder Lark, at least one and possibly two R-3 Avantis, Two R-3 powered Larks (a convertilbe and a closed car), and possibly a Hawk (according to magazine articles it would appear that this was an R-4 engined car). I know that the data available to me is not sufficient to completely prove the above, but these are the conclusions I came to. To me the most impressive of the records were 500 miles at an average speed in excess of 162 mph. Adequately removing the heat generated with a stock cooling system had to be a real challenge over a period of close to three hours running. And remember that at the time the Indy 500 speeds for the race length were not ANY faster (or only marginally so at best) than 162-165 mph! And Studebaker accomplished these same speeds with a stock sedan. What many may not be aware of is that in addition to Bonneville records, Studebaker took an early preproduction Avanti to Nevada in late April of 1962 and had it timed officially by (as I recall) the SCTA at 171 plus mph over a 2 1/4 mile long course on a Nevada highway. The 171 is a terminal velocity unlike the USAC Bonneville records which were average speeds for the length of the course with the timer beginning as soon as the wheels started turning.[8D][8D][8D]

    wagone and R2 Avanti

    Comment


    • #17
      Greetings,
      It has amazed me for quite some time all the errors that creep into our literature. I have been hoping for some time that someone with KNOWLEDGE of the subject will undertake a writing of the speed record efforts by Studebaker in the early '60s (someone in the SDC?). 41 Frank states that the subject article discusses the "speedrecords of the R-2 cars." A couple of years ago I undertook a fairly indepth look at the records set by Studebaker including a couple of magazine articles of the time and came to the conclusion (admittedly not DEFINITIVE) that no R-2 engined cars set any records. The cars apparently which did set the records were: a six cylinder Lark, at least one and possibly two R-3 Avantis, Two R-3 powered Larks (a convertilbe and a closed car), and possibly a Hawk (according to magazine articles it would appear that this was an R-4 engined car). I know that the data available to me is not sufficient to completely prove the above, but these are the conclusions I came to. To me the most impressive of the records were 500 miles at an average speed in excess of 162 mph. Adequately removing the heat generated with a stock cooling system had to be a real challenge over a period of close to three hours running. And remember that at the time the Indy 500 speeds for the race length were not ANY faster (or only marginally so at best) than 162-165 mph! And Studebaker accomplished these same speeds with a stock sedan. What many may not be aware of is that in addition to Bonneville records, Studebaker took an early preproduction Avanti to Nevada in late April of 1962 and had it timed officially by (as I recall) the SCTA at 171 plus mph over a 2 1/4 mile long course on a Nevada highway. The 171 is a terminal velocity unlike the USAC Bonneville records which were average speeds for the length of the course with the timer beginning as soon as the wheels started turning.[8D][8D][8D]

      wagone and R2 Avanti

      Comment


      • #18
        Interesting topic. I've noticed over the last few years that writing in magazines, newspapers, books is getting much worse. Very few authors can write proper English. AND very few editors (or proofreaders) can spot the errors or correct them. I can surmise only that no one cares. Too much hurry, too many deadlines, and who would notice anyway.
        So, if standards no longer matter, is the establishing of facts far behind?
        Editors know nothing of the subject and little of the language so they just go with what has been submitted.
        There's no time to check facts. Everyone wants gratification (or results) NOW!

        Comment


        • #19
          Interesting topic. I've noticed over the last few years that writing in magazines, newspapers, books is getting much worse. Very few authors can write proper English. AND very few editors (or proofreaders) can spot the errors or correct them. I can surmise only that no one cares. Too much hurry, too many deadlines, and who would notice anyway.
          So, if standards no longer matter, is the establishing of facts far behind?
          Editors know nothing of the subject and little of the language so they just go with what has been submitted.
          There's no time to check facts. Everyone wants gratification (or results) NOW!

          Comment


          • #20
            Art,

            I agree. Look at how many people do not even take the time to use the imbedded spellchecker in their e-mail program before hitting the send button. [xx(]

            Gary


            Comment


            • #21
              Art,

              I agree. Look at how many people do not even take the time to use the imbedded spellchecker in their e-mail program before hitting the send button. [xx(]

              Gary


              Comment


              • #22
                I have volunteered to proof read Hemmings articles on Studebaker and others. I do not know all about Studebaker, but I seem to know a lot more than these paid writers are coming up with. Hemmings never took me up on the offer.

                Gary L.
                Wappinger, NY

                1959 DeLuxe pickup (restomod)
                Gary L.
                Wappinger, NY

                SDC member since 1968
                Studebaker enthusiast much longer

                Comment


                • #23
                  I have volunteered to proof read Hemmings articles on Studebaker and others. I do not know all about Studebaker, but I seem to know a lot more than these paid writers are coming up with. Hemmings never took me up on the offer.

                  Gary L.
                  Wappinger, NY

                  1959 DeLuxe pickup (restomod)
                  Gary L.
                  Wappinger, NY

                  SDC member since 1968
                  Studebaker enthusiast much longer

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Seems to me that Bob Palma is or was doing that for Hemmings Muscle Car when they have a Studebaker article,I vaguely remember him mentioning that here not too long ago.I'll bring the Hemmings Classic Car magazine and you can proofread it after the fact Gary, I'll be vending all week in one of the buildings,don't know which one under the name of "Howards Parts"

                    quote:Originally posted by studegary

                    I have volunteered to proof read Hemmings articles on Studebaker and others. I do not know all about Studebaker, but I seem to know a lot more than these paid writers are coming up with. Hemmings never took me up on the offer.

                    Gary L.
                    Wappinger, NY

                    1959 DeLuxe pickup (restomod)
                    Frank van Doorn
                    Omaha, Ne.
                    1962 GT Hawk 289 4 speed
                    1941 Champion streetrod, R-2 Powered, GM 200-4R trans.
                    1952 V-8 232 Commander State "Starliner" hardtop OD

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Seems to me that Bob Palma is or was doing that for Hemmings Muscle Car when they have a Studebaker article,I vaguely remember him mentioning that here not too long ago.I'll bring the Hemmings Classic Car magazine and you can proofread it after the fact Gary, I'll be vending all week in one of the buildings,don't know which one under the name of "Howards Parts"

                      quote:Originally posted by studegary

                      I have volunteered to proof read Hemmings articles on Studebaker and others. I do not know all about Studebaker, but I seem to know a lot more than these paid writers are coming up with. Hemmings never took me up on the offer.

                      Gary L.
                      Wappinger, NY

                      1959 DeLuxe pickup (restomod)
                      Frank van Doorn
                      Omaha, Ne.
                      1962 GT Hawk 289 4 speed
                      1941 Champion streetrod, R-2 Powered, GM 200-4R trans.
                      1952 V-8 232 Commander State "Starliner" hardtop OD

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        I've kind of laid back and watched the posts to this thread.

                        I, too, was shocked to see Patrick Foster's errors in the July Hemmings Classic Car . Patrick knows and loves the independents, and owned at least a 1962 Hawk for awhile. I have no idea why he allowed such basic Studebaker misinformation to go to press.

                        However, I didn't fire off corrections to them for three reasons:

                        1. I had just the previous day sent Richard Lentinello, Editor-in-Chief of Hemmings publications, corrections on non-Studebaker items in the July Hemmings Muscle Machines. I didn't want to beat up on them a second day in a row.

                        2. I have never met Richard Lentinello, but will do so next week in South Bend. He will be spending several days at The Studebaker Drivers Club and Packard Automobile Classics concurrent "National" meets, and promised to look me up. I am looking forward to that exchange, and will gently remind him of Patrick's missteps at the time...although I am sure he's heard about them by now.

                        3. Richard Lentinello and I have had several pleasant, private exchanges about such errors in Hemmings. They are making sincere efforts to improve product accuracy.

                        Unfortunately, Patrick Foster is a private contractor, not a staff employee of Hemmings publications. For this reason, they were remiss in not sending his material out for peer review before sending it to press. Had it been an in-house writer/associate editor, it would have gone out for peer review and the errors would have been caught.

                        To wit: It is now on press, so I can confirm that the August 2007 Hemmings Muscle Machines contains a feature article on Ted Harbit and his Stude Tomato. [][] That article was prepared in-house by their best writer (in my opinion), Dan Strohl.

                        Per the review standards they established last year at Hemmings, Dan's article was previewed by myself, Andy Beckman, Nelson Bove, George Krem, and Ted Harbit! I prepared the bulk of the corrections (there were quite a few!), reflecting several errors Andy had already addressed. George, Nels, and Ted pretty well concurred with what Andy and I had to say. So that article, being an in-house feature, should be error-free . ("Never say never," though; we don't know for sure that Dan incorporated all our recommended changes, but I'll bet he did.)

                        Richard Lentinello said that if he has early printed copies of the August 2007 Hemmings Muscle Machines available to him before he leaves for South Bend, he'll bring them along and see that we have a couple copies available. If he's given me one, I'll have it at The Co-Operator Seminar Tuesday afternoon in The Studebaker National Museum auditorium. (It will be on a long, heavy chain, though, to be sure it doesn't get away!)

                        In short, we must stay on the high ground and work with folks in the national collector-car press, lest our Studebaker mission be confined to preaching to the choir. They seem sincere in reducing their error ratio, but even at that, some are bound to slip through. The goal is minimization; elimination is probably not attainable in this world!

                        Stay tuned. Everybody going: Have a safe trip to South Bend! [8D] BP

                        We've got to quit saying, "How stupid can you be?" Too many people are taking it as a challenge.

                        Ayn Rand:
                        "You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality."

                        G. K. Chesterton: This triangle of truisms, of father, mother, and child, cannot be destroyed; it can only destroy those civilizations which disregard it.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I've kind of laid back and watched the posts to this thread.

                          I, too, was shocked to see Patrick Foster's errors in the July Hemmings Classic Car . Patrick knows and loves the independents, and owned at least a 1962 Hawk for awhile. I have no idea why he allowed such basic Studebaker misinformation to go to press.

                          However, I didn't fire off corrections to them for three reasons:

                          1. I had just the previous day sent Richard Lentinello, Editor-in-Chief of Hemmings publications, corrections on non-Studebaker items in the July Hemmings Muscle Machines. I didn't want to beat up on them a second day in a row.

                          2. I have never met Richard Lentinello, but will do so next week in South Bend. He will be spending several days at The Studebaker Drivers Club and Packard Automobile Classics concurrent "National" meets, and promised to look me up. I am looking forward to that exchange, and will gently remind him of Patrick's missteps at the time...although I am sure he's heard about them by now.

                          3. Richard Lentinello and I have had several pleasant, private exchanges about such errors in Hemmings. They are making sincere efforts to improve product accuracy.

                          Unfortunately, Patrick Foster is a private contractor, not a staff employee of Hemmings publications. For this reason, they were remiss in not sending his material out for peer review before sending it to press. Had it been an in-house writer/associate editor, it would have gone out for peer review and the errors would have been caught.

                          To wit: It is now on press, so I can confirm that the August 2007 Hemmings Muscle Machines contains a feature article on Ted Harbit and his Stude Tomato. [][] That article was prepared in-house by their best writer (in my opinion), Dan Strohl.

                          Per the review standards they established last year at Hemmings, Dan's article was previewed by myself, Andy Beckman, Nelson Bove, George Krem, and Ted Harbit! I prepared the bulk of the corrections (there were quite a few!), reflecting several errors Andy had already addressed. George, Nels, and Ted pretty well concurred with what Andy and I had to say. So that article, being an in-house feature, should be error-free . ("Never say never," though; we don't know for sure that Dan incorporated all our recommended changes, but I'll bet he did.)

                          Richard Lentinello said that if he has early printed copies of the August 2007 Hemmings Muscle Machines available to him before he leaves for South Bend, he'll bring them along and see that we have a couple copies available. If he's given me one, I'll have it at The Co-Operator Seminar Tuesday afternoon in The Studebaker National Museum auditorium. (It will be on a long, heavy chain, though, to be sure it doesn't get away!)

                          In short, we must stay on the high ground and work with folks in the national collector-car press, lest our Studebaker mission be confined to preaching to the choir. They seem sincere in reducing their error ratio, but even at that, some are bound to slip through. The goal is minimization; elimination is probably not attainable in this world!

                          Stay tuned. Everybody going: Have a safe trip to South Bend! [8D] BP

                          We've got to quit saying, "How stupid can you be?" Too many people are taking it as a challenge.

                          Ayn Rand:
                          "You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality."

                          G. K. Chesterton: This triangle of truisms, of father, mother, and child, cannot be destroyed; it can only destroy those civilizations which disregard it.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Bob Palma's reply fortunately shows some positives and some hope for improvements in accuracy out there in the magazine publishing world.

                            And with that said we're heading for South Bend[8D]
                            Frank van Doorn
                            Omaha, Ne.
                            1962 GT Hawk 289 4 speed
                            1941 Champion streetrod, R-2 Powered, GM 200-4R trans.
                            1952 V-8 232 Commander State "Starliner" hardtop OD

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Bob Palma's reply fortunately shows some positives and some hope for improvements in accuracy out there in the magazine publishing world.

                              And with that said we're heading for South Bend[8D]
                              Frank van Doorn
                              Omaha, Ne.
                              1962 GT Hawk 289 4 speed
                              1941 Champion streetrod, R-2 Powered, GM 200-4R trans.
                              1952 V-8 232 Commander State "Starliner" hardtop OD

                              Comment

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