Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Ready to Rack Hawk

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Hey Brian, good luck with the r & p installation. FWIW, consider taking lots of detailed shots, and keep your measurements, and maybe even make templates of your mounts....there will be a line of people waiting to copy your work if you are successful, and I truly hope you are. I have to agree Bob Andrews that there has been so much discussion about such a swap, but to my knowledge no one has yet stepped up to the plate and proclaimed that they indeed have done a swap that exhibits no negative side effects...to date a lot of folks just throwin' around theory, or folks who have designed and installed, but have not done real world testing. I have been thinking about this swap for a number of years now, but am not prepared to fab a system myself because I don't believe my knowledge of steering geometry is at a level required to do the job correctly...but rest assured if you or anyone else nails the solution, I be one of the first to copy your design. Once again, I hope you find the solution. Keep us posted. Regards, Junior. oh ps, read your shawmail, I sent you a message the other day.
    sigpic
    1954 C5 Hamilton car.

    Comment


    • #17
      Thanks Junior
      I was hoping that someone was excited about having done this with success already.
      I didn't think I was the first??? And I definitely do not have the steering geometry knowledge either.
      Brian
      Brian Woods
      woodysrods@shaw.ca
      1946 M Series (Shop Truck)

      Comment


      • #18
        Brian, PM me or e-mail me, and I will point you to a couple of folks here in Canada who have C/Ks with center-take off steering racks installed.

        I don't want to put peoples' names out here in public without their permission.
        Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by gordr View Post
          a couple of folks here in Canada who have C/Ks with center-take off steering racks installed.
          Gord- are these on otherwise stock Studebaker clips? Can you tell us how they have worked out in actual use?

          And, any chance you could persuade them to post their experiences here? As I said, I'd like to conclusively determine how well this works, and if it truly does, how it was done? It would truly be a great service to the Studebaker world.

          I'm looking to build a car that I can drive well into the future, even if my RA progresses; and that means power steering. We need something better than the stock system, but don't want to create a whole new set of problems- and spend a lot of money and time doing it. That's how I got started on the Borgeson conversion deal. I'm not looking to build a roade course racer, just make it easier to steer. I'm betting there's a lot of us non-teens who are thinking the same way.
          Proud NON-CASO

          I do not prize the word "cheap." It is not a badge of honor...it is a symbol of despair. ~ William McKinley

          If it is decreed that I should go down, then let me go down linked with the truth - let me die in the advocacy of what is just and right.- Lincoln

          GOD BLESS AMERICA

          Ephesians 6:10-17
          Romans 15:13
          Deuteronomy 31:6
          Proverbs 28:1

          Illegitimi non carborundum

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Bob Andrews View Post
            Gord-
            I'm looking to build a car that I can drive well into the future, even if my RA progresses; and that means power steering. We need something better than the stock system, but don't want to create a whole new set of problems- and spend a lot of money and time doing it. That's how I got started on the Borgenson conversion deal. I'm not looking to build a road course racer, just make it easier to steer. I'm betting there's a lot of us non-teens who are thinking the same way.
            ^ +1.
            sigpic
            '89 Ford Festiva
            '90 Ford F250 4x4
            '14 Kia Rio
            '64 Studebaker Gran Turismo Hawk
            '66 International Harvester pickup

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by David View Post
              ^ +1.
              You people have no adventurous side to you. There's nothing more exciting than traveling down the interstate at 80 plus MPH and think about changing lanes and then realize that you just did by just thinking about it. .
              Jerry Forrester
              Forrester's Chrome
              Douglasville, Georgia

              See all of Buttercup's pictures at https://imgur.com/a/tBjGzTk

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by gordr View Post
                Brian, PM me or e-mail me, and I will point you to a couple of folks here in Canada who have C/Ks with center-take off steering racks installed.

                I don't want to put peoples' names out here in public without their permission.
                Gord

                I'm just a lurker on these discussion but are these the same setup as Jerry's which I believe is also a center take-off rack? With your help and Brian's fabrication based on Jerry's experience, we may be getting close. Thanks guys.

                Good fabricating Brian, I'm following with great interest.

                Bob

                Comment


                • #23
                  Yeah, I think so. Both intances I know of personally were the work of one guy, and he does fine work.

                  You look at the books, and they will tell you that you will get bump steer whenever the length of the tie rod section between the chassis end and the steering rod is unequal to the effective length of the lower control arm. If you think about, you can really only have zero bump steer at straight ahead. Cramp the wheels over, and the effective length of the lower control arm changes. The steering arm is attached to the knuckle, and the knuckle moves more or less vertically along a line tangent to the arc described by the lower control arm, as the suspension moves through its range. When the wheels are turned, the end of the steering arm on the inside wheel moves closer to the pivot axis of the lower control arm, and the opposite occurs on the outside wheel.

                  I think what you want to have is minimal bump steer at straight ahead and for gentle maneuvers, like lane changes, and allow to become progressively worse toward full lock, like in parking maneuvers, which are usually done slow enough tha bump steer doesn't present a problem. Center-pivot steering, as used by Studebaker and other makes, was a way of doing that by making the tie rods so long that the length ratio between tie rod and axis-length of the steering arm point didn't change much at moderate steering angles. Going to a center take-off steering rack would pretty much mimic that geometry for small steering angles. I could see that changing as you approach full lock, but aside from autocrossers, how many of us steer to full lock at any sort of speed where bump steer could be troublesome? As far as I can see, if bump steer is effectively zero going straight ahead, and nearly so so for gentle maneuvers like lane changing, you are fine. For a little tighter turn like going up a freeway on-ramp, zero bump-steer would be nice, but you can tolerate a little, because you are actiely involved in steering at this point, and paying a lot more attention. On the straight-away, you don't want to have to contantly make steering corrections.

                  I will make an effort to learn a little more about the cars I mentioned above. Maybe I can talk one of the guys into cruising his car down to my place so we can put it on the hoist and take some pictures.
                  Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Your points are well taken, Gord. As you say, bump steer is of little concern at very low speed or in turns; the key area is reaction to bumps at speeds above, say, 15 MPH. For most street applications that's really the entire focus.

                    For those unfamiliar, here is a good primer on bump steer:

                    http://www.longacreracing.com/articles/art.asp?ARTID=13

                    The general standard is .010-inch of bump per inch of vertical travel. That sounds like a lot, but it can be a challenge to get on a race car with much more adjustability than a street car. As the above article says: In order to accomplish zero bump the tie rod must fall between an imaginary line that runs from the upper ball joint through the lower ball joint and an imaginary line that runs through the upper a-arm pivot and the lower control arm pivot. In addition, the centerline of the tie rod must intersect with the instant center created by the upper a-arm and the lower control arm. This is where the problem with rack widths on Stude frames comes in.

                    Another area I had forgotten about it turning radius. There have been problems stated with finding a rack that will allow enough room to fully turn the wheels. This is another challenge that needs to be considered. Check the below threads for more in these areas:

                    http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.c...ht=rack+pinion

                    Be sure to reread what Jack wrote in this thread, particularly post #25:

                    http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.c...ht=rack+pinion

                    Gord, pictures of the successful installs would be great. But the ultimate would be if you could get a chance to test drive it yourself, over uneven and bumpy roads, and give us your first-hand, unbiased impressions.

                    I think few people really understand how tricky and complicated a prospect it is to produce a decent, quality suspension that does everything we want and need- caster, camber, toe, ackerman, ride height, and bump steer all have to not only meet their own spec for the given application, but that spec has to be compatible with all the other specs. With a race car you add roll steer, roll center, center of gravity, rear steer, brake bias, stagger, wheel offset, air pressure; and you get a feel for why it's so important to know you're really understanding all aspects and getting them all right. On a race track it means the difference between winning and losing. On the road it means comfort, but most of all- safety.

                    Here's hoping truly proven solutions are forthcoming.
                    Proud NON-CASO

                    I do not prize the word "cheap." It is not a badge of honor...it is a symbol of despair. ~ William McKinley

                    If it is decreed that I should go down, then let me go down linked with the truth - let me die in the advocacy of what is just and right.- Lincoln

                    GOD BLESS AMERICA

                    Ephesians 6:10-17
                    Romans 15:13
                    Deuteronomy 31:6
                    Proverbs 28:1

                    Illegitimi non carborundum

                    Comment

                    Working...
                    X