Brake ideas

[kmac530]

As I bit by bit sort thru pieces on my '52 2R I am finding some really good stuff and more and more look to be useable...very good for me and my minimal budget...

The brakes not being too good has come up on another site I visit. I do not really want to do discs on it as I want to keep an old and authentic feel and look to the truck.

I have been looking at wheel cylinders since those are bad for sure. Mine are 1-1/8" on the rear. The 1 ton trucks look to have 1-1/4" from my research. I was wondering if I would gain an advantage on braking power if I left the same drums and shoes {14" x 2"on the rear} and went to the 1 ton master cylinder or possibly even a power assist later style MC out of some kind of modern 1 ton GM/ford/or Dodge and then used the 1-1/4 bore 1 ton wheel cylinders to add more force?

I know I had a '69 El Camino that came with drums up front and I swapped them out to disc off of a junker I found. I cant remember what the combo of drum master cylinder and disc something, but I mixed the pieces just by chance and that thing would put you thru the windshield with the lightest touch of the pedal...to much in fact. But, I know that it just had to do with the hydaulic ratio's and if I can figure out the right mix of MC piston diameter and stroke coupled with the right wheel cylinder diameters, I am sure I can greatly improve on the stock brakes and retain the drums...not perfect of course but better for sure?

I have seen some formulas before but dont always get them since I am a moron carpenter...I put screws in drywall for a living and havent even done that in a year and a half..
so keep it simple for us ding a lings

[StudeRich]

Most Wheel Cylinders have a different shape to prevent putting them on the wrong backing plate (Truck), so swapping sizes may not work.
Also a LARGER Master Cyl. bore will DECREASE the pressure.

[kmac530]

By the measurements I have the 1-1/4 and the 1-1/8" WC will fit into the same mounting plates. Same mounting bolt dimensions, round opening size and length of stroke.

Please explaine DECREASE? Decrease the pressure as in decrease the amount of pressure it takes to push the pedal or decrease stopping force?

A 1 ton GM truck uses a 1-1/4" MC and a 3/4 ton uses a 1-1/8" Mc and a 1/2 ton uses a 1" and all use the same {as far as I can see anyway} the same leverage point on the brake pedal.
This is where it gets confussing for me... I have read the info

http://www.automedia.com/Better_Brak...ht20080501gh/1

here and it makes sense, yet, on most cars and trucks I see the opposite being used to on bigger vehichles...what am I not seeing?

[kmac530]

I have this info which was very helpful, especially the ratio's chart...

http://www.mpbrakes.com/technical-su...-cylinders.cfm

And I think I understand the principles stated here, BUT, my mind is having trouble getting around VOLUMN {internet pun there with the caps?} I get that with the same pedal ratio, a smaller MC bore will put out more line pressure. BUT it still takes volumn to move a caliper or wheel cylinder, NO?

Using the formula for Pie, a 1-1/4" wheel cylinder takes MORE volumn to move the same distance than a 1" WC does. So, a smaller bore MC would need to travel farther towards the floor to create the same stopping effect...thus moving the pivot ratio would help with pedal travel...but...that would again decrease leverage and making the pedal feel harder to push again....my mind is going in circles here... where is that googlie eye emoticon?

[jimmijim8]

Engineer something else. Rebuild the brakes as they were meant to be unless you are creating a rocket powered truck. cheers jimmijim

[kmac530]

Engineer something else. Rebuild the brakes as they were meant to be unless you are creating a rocket powered truck. cheers jimmijim

I agree to some extent...it is just that old trucks like this had piss poor brakes on them in general and I would like to improve safety since my family will ride in this truck at times. My 17 year old daughter actually want to drive it sometimes just to be cool and vintage...she LOVEs old style and vintage clothes...

[PackardV8]

X2 what jimjim said.

If your truck doesn't have a Hydrovac power booster, consider adding one. With everything working properly, there is nothing wrong with the brakes Studebaker put on the truck. My E12 with Hydrovac and Michelin tires will stop as short as it needs to.

The brakes not being too good has come up on another site I visit.

Since it was on the internet, it must be true.
Since you're new, be aware we CASOs who have spent a bunch of money will always justify our modifications, sometimes as necessary for safety. Of course, if one has been driving a sixty-year-old complely worn-out drum brake system, maybe with some mismatched parts in there and replace it with all new disc brakes and of course it will stop better. Rebuild the OEM drum brake system with all-new parts and it will stop just fine too.

FWIW, I'm building a custom C-cab with a Packard V8 and I kept the OEM brakes. If treble the horsepower proves too much for the brakes, I'll consider going to discs, but the drums haven't let me down in thirty years. How fast should we be going in a C-cab anyway?

jack vines

[rrausch]

I've messed with old cars and trucks all my life. My first rod was a '46 Chevy panel truck that I put a Pontiac V8 w/ tri-power in, in High School Ag Shop. (We had a very nice Ag Shop instructor) I used the Pontiac power brake booster and just hung it on the '46 Chevy firewall and it worked great.

Next truck was a '42 Dodge Power Wagon, with stock 11" diameter drums. Stopping in that truck was a nightmare--you had to plan about a block in advance of where you wanted to actually come to a stop. Next two trucks were '54 Chevy trucks with stock drums and no power assist. I put 90,000 miles on the second '54 Chevy truck as my daily driver and never had a problem stopping. I'm currently putting a Stude Bendix Hydrovac on my '53 Chevy with drum brakes. I've never had a problem with drum brakes, except on that Power Wagon, which had terribly small diameter drums from the factory. IMO, as long as you're not a street racer, you shouldn't have any problem.

[skyway]

If yours is a half ton truck and you want to keep it simple, just install late model T cab front brakes from the backing plate out, onto your current spindles.
In the alternative, you can use late V-8 brakes too. However these require the you use the spindle as a pattern to re-drill a couple of the
holes in the backing plates.
Either of these mods allow you to keep your original wheels.
Next step would be to see if Jim Turner has (I'm thinking that he does) an under the floor dual MC kit.

[kmac530]

Im sorry sky, I did not put it in my original post, most guys have replied to other questions I have had and know what I have. It is a 3/4 ton HD. 6 on 7.25 bolt pattern and 14" rear drums. But the dual MC is a nice idea. Is that possibly a bolt in type KIT MC? That I may be interested in.
Thanx for that heads up

[kmac530]

TWO last questions on this topic before the thread dies...
1) Does anyone know if the actual brake lines on the 1 ton and the 3/4 ton are the same diameter or might they run larger/smaller tubing diameter?

2) The shoes, on the rear at least, look to fairly new. Yes they have sat for many years, but can anyone think of why I cant use them still? Could they be too dried out or what? I dont see why they would be unuseable, but you guys and gals may know better than I.

[1962larksedan]

TWO last questions on this topic before the thread dies...
1) Does anyone know if the actual brake lines on the 1 ton and the 3/4 ton are the same diameter or might they run larger/smaller tubing diameter?

2) The shoes, on the rear at least, look to fairly new. Yes they have sat for many years, but can anyone think of why I cant use them still? Could they be too dried out or what? I dont see why they would be unuseable, but you guys and gals may know better than I.

Quick and dirty: if the tubing threads on the 3/4 Ton and 1 Ton master/wheel cylinders are the same diameter; the odds are very high that the chassis tubing is the same. Another way to check is to cross over the brake hoses between the above weight classes.