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  • I need a 'tach' education.

    In the last few weeks there have been a number of posts about tachs, and red line, green line, white , blue face etc. What does this all mean? The only thing I know about are SW greenline gauges from the 60's, but this is not Stude specific. Can someone educate me (and probably others)and maybe provide a photograph of each? A search really did not provide answers, nor photos showing the differences. One photo show a tach with a red section from 5 to 6K rpm, does that mean the engine was redlined at 5K. What was the factory redline for R3's, as recent info in TW indicates 6200 rpm shift points for R3's. Just wondering. Thanks, Junior.
    sigpic
    1954 C5 Hamilton car.

  • #2
    It really is NOT that complicated Junior. Basically, the '63 Larks have Black faced Instrument Clusters, Speedometers and Clocks or Tachs. with the Red "X" target like lines accross the faces.

    The '64 to '66 four Instruments above Had Silver/Green faces with round Silver Discs in the Center.

    Then there were the Tachs of both types (or maybe just '63, what does it matter) for R Series Engined Cars which had the white RPM marks from 5 to 6,000 replaced with RED marks indicating the HIGH end (Danger Zone) of the Range and 6000 Limit.

    Hawks and Avantis are simply just Black faced with White Markings, but they ARE different. Hawks have trianglular "Counterweights" for needle Centers.
    StudeRich
    Second Generation Stude Driver,
    Proud '54 Starliner Owner

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    • #3
      Always something to learn here.....wish school was as informative:-)
      Originally posted by StudeRich View Post
      It really is NOT that complicated Junior. Basically, the '63 Larks have Black faced Instrument Clusters, Speedometers and Clocks or Tachs. with the Red "X" target like lines accross the faces.

      The '64 to '66 four Instruments above Had Silver/Green faces with round Silver Discs in the Center.

      Then there were the Tachs of both types (or maybe just '63, what does it matter) for R Series Engined Cars which had the white RPM marks from 5 to 6,000 replaced with RED marks indicating the HIGH end (Danger Zone) of the Range and 6000 Limit.

      Hawks and Avantis are simply just Black faced with White Markings, but they ARE different. Hawks have trianglular "Counterweights" for needle Centers.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by StudeRich View Post
        It really is NOT that complicated Junior. Basically, the '63 Larks have Black faced Instrument Clusters, Speedometers and Clocks or Tachs. with the Red "X" target like lines accross the faces.

        The '64 to '66 four Instruments above Had Silver/Green faces with round Silver Discs in the Center.


        Just for the record: the 64 Lark-type gauges were originally black/very dark gray in color. When exposed to sun (and not for very long) they fade to a green. I've got several NOS units and they're clearly not green.
        Skip Lackie

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        • #5
          Thank you for the education...I now have a better understanding of the issue. Just one more question...typically, what limits the rpm on a Stude V8, the long stroke, valve float, or camshaft specs? My car has a 283 with a GM 305 camshaft in it...it has no problem running to 6000rpm, but the power falls flat above 5500 rpm. The exact same engine used to be in my Dad's 63 Impala, but it had the 'Duntov 30-30' camshaft in it at the time. I would run the engine up to 6500 with this camshaft with no problem, no valve float...I was just too scared to run it any faster for fear of scattering it all over the place...my Dad would have killed me if I did that in my first year a licenced driver. Junior.
          sigpic
          1954 C5 Hamilton car.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Skip Lackie View Post
            I've got several NOS units
            Holy crap, Skip! Be careful of statements like that, you might get a rock-star mugging!
            Proud NON-CASO

            I do not prize the word "cheap." It is not a badge of honor...it is a symbol of despair. ~ William McKinley

            If it is decreed that I should go down, then let me go down linked with the truth - let me die in the advocacy of what is just and right.- Lincoln

            GOD BLESS AMERICA

            Ephesians 6:10-17
            Romans 15:13
            Deuteronomy 31:6
            Proverbs 28:1

            Illegitimi non carborundum

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Bob Andrews View Post
              Holy crap, Skip! Be careful of statements like that, you might get a rock-star mugging!
              No tachs! Just speedos, clocks, and multi-gauge clusters.
              Skip Lackie

              Comment


              • #8
                junior -

                Yes....all of the above limit the max. RPM.

                1. The stroke - the longer the stroke, the better (read that..more expensive) the materials need to be to control the extra weight of the parts swinging in a larger circle.

                2. Valve float - When a spring is designed, not only the rpm has to be concidered, but the weight of all of the components need to be thrown into the calculations also. As in other areas of the engine, the Stude designers designed for JUST what they had. There is very little in overdesign in the Stude engine (save for maybe the block and crank).

                3. Cam design - Same here. The designers of the cams were told where to put the h.p. curve and where to put the torque curve....rpm wise. They did a "very" good job of this. These as you can see by the somewhat lor tach. rpm values, these engines (cams) were not designed to 7000rpm like some of the later engines from the big three. But in actuality...Stude was very early with their 53/54 engines and did a fairly good job (better than the big three at the time), and little updates was required to build a better engine, e.g., the R series engines. Cam's, valve springs and for the badest engine(s) of the bunch...heads. These new designes gave the little Stude the extra that it needed to go to the higher rpm it needed for more horse power and torque.

                When talking gasoline and alcohol fueled, 4 stroke engines, power needs rpm.

                Mike

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by junior View Post
                  Thank you for the education...I now have a better understanding of the issue. Just one more question...typically, what limits the rpm on a Stude V8, the long stroke, valve float, or camshaft specs? My car has a 283 with a GM 305 camshaft in it...it has no problem running to 6000rpm, but the power falls flat above 5500 rpm. The exact same engine used to be in my Dad's 63 Impala, but it had the 'Duntov 30-30' camshaft in it at the time. I would run the engine up to 6500 with this camshaft with no problem, no valve float...I was just too scared to run it any faster for fear of scattering it all over the place...my Dad would have killed me if I did that in my first year a licenced driver. Junior.



                  I would like to point out that there is quite a difference in the GM 305 hydraulic camshaft and a 30/30 "Duntov" solid lifter cam.
                  Stude Rookie

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    .typically, what limits the rpm on a Stude V8, the long stroke, valve float, or camshaft specs?
                    As MVV says, "all of the above."

                    1. Long stroke? Not really. The five different Stude V8 displacements have stroke lengths from 2-13/16" to 3-5/8". The 224" would wind to the moon with no piston speed problems, but somewhere up there it would eventually run into the same inertia limits the 289"/304.5" have; the upward inertia of the piston stretches the rod big end and failure for the larger engines occurs around a sustained 7,000 RPMs. So it is really the stock rod which limits the ultimate RPMs.

                    2. Valve float? Yes, the OEM Stude valve springs are a tall, antique design which goes into a death wobble at higher RPMs. The OEM stamped steel outer sleeves are an attempt to hold things under control at the standard 4,500 RPM power peak. The '57-58 GH and Packards with the supercharger would run into valve float just when things started getting interesting.

                    3. Camshaft specs? Yes, the standard camshaft is tiny by current standards; net valve lift is only .360". No wonder it runs out of steam at 4500 RPMs. Even the R1 cams have only 260 degree advertised duration and .425" valve lift. When everything is right, they will go to 5,500.

                    You mentioned BrandX winding higher than Studes, which always loses you points here ;>) To be strictly accurate, there were two different "Duntov" cams. The #3736097, used in the FI '57-63 Corvettes (which BTW was really designed by the immortal Ed Winfield, not Zora Arkus Duntov) Intake 317 deg./ .382" , Exhaust 288 deg./ .386". and the '63-67 30-30 cam, #3849346. 313 deg./ .447" lift. This latter cam was barely streetable on a 283" and even the 327" idled roughly, fouled plugs and needed at least 11:1 compression to make any power.

                    4. Long pushrods? You didn't mention this, but the Stude V8 pushrods are almost 2" longer than the BrandX, thus much heavier.

                    jack vines



                    2.
                    PackardV8

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by PackardV8 View Post
                      You mentioned BrandX winding higher than Studes, which always loses you points here ;>) To be strictly accurate, there were two different "Duntov" cams. The #3736097, used in the FI '57-63 Corvettes (which BTW was really designed by the immortal Ed Winfield, not Zora Arkus Duntov) Intake 317 deg./ .382" , Exhaust 288 deg./ .386". and the '63-67 30-30 cam, #3849346. 313 deg./ .447" lift. This latter cam was barely streetable on a 283" and even the 327" idled roughly, fouled plugs and needed at least 11:1 compression to make any power.

                      jack vines



                      2.
                      What a wealth of information, you guys never cease to amaze me and yes the 283 with the "big corvette cam" had a lousy idle, and ran like a dog in the Impala with the Powerglide trans, but hey, I never said it was fast, I said it would easily rev. to 6500 rpm. Dad originally built the engine for the Studebaker, but had to run it for a couple of years in the Impala until he had the $ to rebuild the orginal engine in the Impala. The engine actually ran real well in the Stude with the 4:56 rearend gear ratio and the 3spd. auto with a shift kit. The 283 was bored .040, had 1.94" intakes, about 10.0 :1 comp. ratio, and factory intake with a Carter 4bbl that he pulled off a 327 Chevelle. He got tired of the poor fuel economy, and put in a stock 305 cam...probably good thing too being the car still had the Dana 27 rearend. Car was a handful to drive under full throttle shifts from first to second. I still have the Corvette cam, and one day I will go up the attic in my garage and see what the exact part number is, as now my intrest is sparked. Just always remember him saying it was a Duntov 30-30. Cheers, Junior
                      sigpic
                      1954 C5 Hamilton car.

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