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  • David Neitzel Auction Report

    5 PM Saturday, August 14, 2010: 'Just returned from the big David Neitzel Studebaker auction in Mooresville. Overall, a nice day with a lighter crowd than I would have expected, even accounting for our Indy Chapter SDC having a conflicting Chapter Meet & Eat today at the same time.

    Even so, Chapter members Dave Elmore and Tom Flynn joined me at the auction, as did Tom Nation and forum member Johnny Thiele of Vandalia IL, some three hours west of us! There were likely some other out-of-state SDCers in attendance that I did not recognize. (Johnny said he was going to take in the recommended Gray Bros. Cafeteria in Mooresville on his way home, so maybe he'll post his culinary report in this thread.)

    At least the weather was not as hot as it has been the last several days, and a cool breeze and adequate fans out in the country made the environment pleasant. Lawson Brothers Auctioneers of Danville IN did their usual top-notch job; it is always pleasant to attend one of their auctions as you know it will be well-run and fair.

    Neither David's 1922 Big Six Children's Hearse nor 1925 Standard Six Duplex Phaeton, Model ER went home with new owners. The sale bill said each would be open to internet / proxy bidding and "offered with a modest reserve."

    I suppose "modest" is in the eye of the beholder, in that the Children's Hearse had an opening internet proxy bid of $25,000. No one on location was willing to bid higher than that, so it did not sell against a disclosed $40,000 reserve. Likewise, the Standard Six Duplex Phaeton had spirited bidding to about $7,500 and then seemed to stall. At the last minute, new blood entered the fray and it got to $10,000 and then crept to $10,500, which was all it could muster against a $15,000 reserve. At least there were some potential buyers on site with which Dana and Mark Neitzel may communicate later, now that the cars have been inspected first-hand by the interested parties.

    Most of David Neitzel's parts and literature are prewar, and I don't profess to know the market for much, if any, of it. That said, prices seemed reasonable. In the absence of Dick Quinn and other notables of that persuation, there were likely some bargains to be had <GGG>. David had quite a collection of genuine, antique pins and buttons, most of which were sold in the $8 range.

    I was very pleased to "score" the one item I set my eye on when surveying the offerings upon arrival: David's copy of the huge, copyright 1981, Studebaker tome Studebaker, The Complete Story, by William A. Cannon and Fred K. Fox. I have long wanted one of these books, and they've been out of print long enough that they don't come up all that often. Johnny Thiele indicated he wanted to bid on it, too, but volunteered that he "didn't want to bid against me." While I appreciated the courtesy, I said, "Hey, it's an open auction. Bid what you'd like, Johnny, and we'll see who thinks it's worth the most!"

    They threw the Cannon / Fox book on an open table with many other Shop Manuals and Parts Books and auctioned off "choice book" to the highest bidder. In the first go-'round, Johnny followed me up to my bid of $20 and would not bid the next $22.50 asked, so I got choice book for $20 as high bidder and quickly grabbed the Cannon / Fox book, which I considered an excellent buy (thanks, Johnny!). In fact, I've already referenced it here at home to be sure I had the nomenclature correct for David Neitzel's 1925 Standard Six Duplex Phaeton before posting.

    I was sorry to see a very complete, but condition unknown, circa 1923 Special Six engine sell for $150 to a scrapper, as I am sure it will be melted down into new Hyundai engine block material along with the early '50s Champion six and mid-1950s MoPar "semi-hemi" V-8 engines the scrapper also bought for $150 each.

    Those little Schwinn "hot-rod" bicycles out of the 1970s amaze me. Sting-Ray, Lemon Peeler, etc. How many varieties of those things were there, anyway? Included in the auction was a rusty old one of those with the wrong seat, a "Ram's-Horn" model with ram's horn handlebars. Needing everything, it still brought $175, IIRC! Amazing. They must have quite a following. At least they don't leak oil or take up much room.

    I would like to have seen more of the genuine "antique" (pre-war) Studebaker crowd there, as I believe there were some bargains to be had. At least everything seemed to be getting bought by a few serious people, so nothing of real value was likely left behind to be tossed.

    Overall, a nice day and, for me, a most successful one, in that I've been looking for a copy of the Cannon / Fox Studebaker History Book for some time. Thanks, Dana and Mark! BP
    Last edited by BobPalma; 08-15-2010, 05:46 AM. Reason: Edited to correct "Special Six" to read "Standard Six," per Dick Quinn's correction.
    We've got to quit saying, "How stupid can you be?" Too many people are taking it as a challenge.

    Ayn Rand:
    "You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality."

    G. K. Chesterton: This triangle of truisms, of father, mother, and child, cannot be destroyed; it can only destroy those civilizations which disregard it.

  • #2
    auction

    Thanks for the report, Bob. I sure regret that I wasn't there to help bidders pay higher prices, but have 2 many irons in the fire & 2 Studebaker hauling trips pending to spend my $$ on!
    Last edited by TX Rebel; 08-14-2010, 06:19 PM. Reason: typo
    Barry'd in Studes

    Comment


    • #3
      Too bad there were not more prewar bidders there Bob, but like you said most everything went to somebody, except the cars. I got my copy of "Studebaker the Complete Story" a couple of years ago when our Chapter had its Christmas party/white elephant exchange. Dick Orr, Joe Roberts's uncle here in town, was downsizing and I was lucky enough to capture it as a white elephant gift.
      Frank van Doorn
      Omaha, Ne.
      1962 GT Hawk 289 4 speed
      1941 Champion streetrod, R-2 Powered, GM 200-4R trans.
      1952 V-8 232 Commander State "Starliner" hardtop OD

      Comment


      • #4
        Thanks for posting about the auction. I was curious to learn how it went. It must have been fun to be there.

        Comment


        • #5
          I am surprised that you didn't order Fred K. Fox's book during the pre-publication period, as I did. I think that you purchased the book at about $100 under market. Is it a numbered or signed edition?
          Gary L.
          Wappinger, NY

          SDC member since 1968
          Studebaker enthusiast much longer

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by studegary View Post
            I am surprised that you didn't order Fred K. Fox's book during the pre-publication period, as I did. I think that you purchased the book at about $100 under market. Is it a numbered or signed edition?
            The pre-publication period was about the time I was leaving the secure employment of ITT Publishing (January 1981, to be exact) to join the ranks of genuine entepreneurs as a self-employed person, Gary...with one child born in 1980 and our second in 1982! A book such as this, although worth every dime, would have been a bit extravagant at the time.

            This copy is not signed or numbered, but it is from the second printing. It sure is a pleasant read; I've done several chapters already. BP
            We've got to quit saying, "How stupid can you be?" Too many people are taking it as a challenge.

            Ayn Rand:
            "You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality."

            G. K. Chesterton: This triangle of truisms, of father, mother, and child, cannot be destroyed; it can only destroy those civilizations which disregard it.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by BobPalma View Post
              5 PM Saturday, August 14, 2010: 'Just returned from the big David Neitzel Studebaker auction in Mooresville. Overall, a nice day with a lighter crowd than I would have expected, even accounting for our Indy Chapter SDC having a conflicting Chapter Meet & Eat today at the same time.

              Even so, Chapter members Dave Elmore and Tom Flynn joined me at the auction, as did Tom Nation and forum member Johnny Thiele of Vandalia IL, some three hours west of us! There were likely some other out-of-state SDCers in attendance that I did not recognize. (Johnny said he was going to take in the recommended Gray Bros. Cafeteria in Mooresville on his way home, so maybe he'll post his culinary report in this thread.)

              At least the weather was not as hot as it has been the last several days, and a cool breeze and adequate fans out in the country made the environment pleasant. Lawson Brothers Auctioneers of Danville IN did their usual top-notch job; it is always pleasant to attend one of their auctions as you know it will be well-run and fair.

              Neither David's 1922 Big Six Children's Hearse nor 1925 Special Six Duplex Phaeton went home with new owners. The sale bill said each would be open to internet / proxy bidding and "offered with a modest reserve."

              I suppose "modest" is in the eye of the beholder, in that the Children's Hearse had an opening internet proxy bid of $25,000. No one on location was willing to bid higher than that, so it did not sell against a disclosed $40,000 reserve. Likewise, the Special Six Duplex Phaeton had spirited bidding to about $7,500 and then seemed to stall. At the last minute, new blood entered the fray and it got to $10,000 and then crept to $10,500, which was all it could muster against a $15,000 reserve. At least there were some potential buyers on site with which Dana and Mark Neitzel may communicate later, now that the cars have been inspected first-hand by the interested parties.

              Most of David Neitzel's parts and literature are prewar, and I don't profess to know the market for much, if any, of it. That said, prices seemed reasonable. In the absence of Dick Quinn and other notables of that persuation, there were likely some bargains to be had <GGG>. David had quite a collection of genuine, antique pins and buttons, most of which were sold in the $8 range.

              I was very pleased to "score" the one item I set my eye on when surveying the offerings upon arrival: David's copy of the huge, copyright 1981, Studebaker tome Studebaker, The Complete Story, by William A. Cannon and Fred K. Fox. I have long wanted one of these books, and they've been out of print long enough that they don't come up all that often. Johnny Thiele indicated he wanted to bid on it, too, but volunteered that he "didn't want to bid against me." While I appreciated the courtesy, I said, "Hey, it's an open auction. Bid what you'd like, Johnny, and we'll see who thinks it's worth the most!"

              They threw the Cannon / Fox book on an open table with many other Shop Manuals and Parts Books and auctioned off "choice book" to the highest bidder. In the first go-'round, Johnny followed me up to my bid of $20 and would not bid the next $22.50 asked, so I got choice book for $20 as high bidder and quickly grabbed the Cannon / Fox book, which I considered an excellent buy (thanks, Johnny!). In fact, I've already referenced it here at home to be sure I had the nomenclature correct for David Neitzel's 1925 Special Six Duplex Phaeton before posting.

              I was sorry to see a very complete, but condition unknown, circa 1923 Special Six engine sell for $150 to a scrapper, as I am sure it will be melted down into new Hyundai engine block material along with the early '50s Champion six and mid-1950s MoPar "semi-hemi" V-8 engines the scrapper also bought for $150 each.

              Those little Schwinn "hot-rod" bicycles out of the 1970s amaze me. Sting-Ray, Lemon Peeler, etc. How many varieties of those things were there, anyway? Included in the auction was a rusty old one of those with the wrong seat, a "Ram's-Horn" model with ram's horn handlebars. Needing everything, it still brought $175, IIRC! Amazing. They must have quite a following. At least they don't leak oil or take up much room.

              I would like to have seen more of the genuine "antique" (pre-war) Studebaker crowd there, as I believe there were some bargains to be had. At least everything seemed to be getting bought by a few serious people, so nothing of real value was likely left behind to be tossed.

              Overall, a nice day and, for me, a most successful one, in that I've been looking for a copy of the Cannon / Fox Studebaker History Book for some time. Thanks, Dana and Mark! BP
              You could not have learned too much from that new book. The '25 was not a Special Six but a Standard Six model ER. At least you have the Duplex Phaeton terminology correct! I had two class reunions to attend in one evening 125 miles apart so chose those over the auction (I made both reunions!). I was fairly certain neither of the cars would sell. The sons really have a grossly inflated idea of the value of both cars but especially the child's hearse.
              Richard Quinn
              Editor emeritus: Antique Studebaker Review

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Studebaker Wheel View Post
                You could not have learned too much from that new book. The '25 was not a Special Six but a Standard Six model ER. At least you have the Duplex Phaeton terminology correct!
                Thanks, Dick. I am going to go back and re-read the appropriate chapters and try to determine the difference between the Special Six and Standard Six. Speed reading was never my forte, but at least I knew the sale bill description of the car as a "DeLuxe Phaeton" was in error. I have corrected my original post.

                I do wish you or Rex or some other ASC members had been present to score some of the tons of 1920s and 1930s parts and literature that went across the block. Perhaps some of the buyers were ASC members, but I did not recognize any faces. Are you aware of any ASCers who were in attendance? BP
                Last edited by BobPalma; 08-15-2010, 05:45 AM.
                We've got to quit saying, "How stupid can you be?" Too many people are taking it as a challenge.

                Ayn Rand:
                "You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality."

                G. K. Chesterton: This triangle of truisms, of father, mother, and child, cannot be destroyed; it can only destroy those civilizations which disregard it.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Bob,

                  Amazon.com has 4 of the books listed from $ 98.00 - $ 225.00.
                  Hope you enjoy the book, as I know you will ( and already have )
                  Remember me if you ever stumble on another one !

                  Stopped at Gray Bros on the way home.
                  It was everything you said it was and more !
                  I don't know how many times I've driven past that exit and never knew it was there.
                  Won't happen again.
                  Follwed your shortcut on the way home with no problems.

                  Enjoyed visting with you and Tom Nation.

                  Johnny Thiele

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by BobPalma View Post
                    Thanks, Dick. I am going to go back and re-read the appropriate chapters and try to determine the difference between the Special Six and Standard Six. Speed reading was never my forte, but at least I knew the sale bill description of the car as a "DeLuxe Phaeton" was in error. I have corrected my original post.

                    I do wish you or Rex or some other ASC members had been present to score some of the tons of 1920s and 1930s parts and literature that went across the block. Perhaps some of the buyers were ASC members, but I did not recognize any faces. Are you aware of any ASCers who were in attendance? BP



                    The Special Six (EQ) for 1925-26 was between the larger Big 6 model EP and the smaller Standard Six model ER. The engine in the Special Six was 289 cubic inches as opposed to 354 for the Big 6 and 242 for the smaller Standard 6. Wheelbases as follows : Big 6 - 127”, Special 6 - 120” and Standard 6 - 113.” The Special had the same basic engine as the EP but with a 3/8” smaller bore.

                    The Duplex bodies were available on all three series and looked quite similar. The most striking difference was in the design of the radiator shells. As will be noted above the Special Six had a sharp edge look similar to the Packard and Buick of the same vintage. The Standard Six went through about three or four different radiator shell designs during the two-year run but all were more rounded as will be observed above.

                    Probably more than you wanted to know but remember if there had never been a Big 6, Special 6 or Standard 6 there would never had been a Lark, Hawk or Avanti.
                    Richard Quinn
                    Editor emeritus: Antique Studebaker Review

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Richard - The two pictures make me think of my parents.
                      My mother would have been 17-18 then and was about that size and from NY.
                      My father would have been 23-24 and had a hat and coat like that and was a big time pool player all his life. I still have people come up to me and tell me that they really learned how to shoot pool from my father.
                      I think that the last time that I used chains on one of my cars was on my 1965 Plymouth Sport Fury (in 1965, I only kept the car nine months). It was a major snowstorm and I wanted to get to a dinner where my father was being honred. I got there and home, but ended up with a flat tire.
                      Amazing how a couple of old pictures can bring back memories.
                      Gary L.
                      Wappinger, NY

                      SDC member since 1968
                      Studebaker enthusiast much longer

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Thanks, Dick.

                        I went back and re-read Chapters 10 and 13 of the Cannon / Fox book and still couldn't determine a definitive way to quickly and easily tell a Special Six from a Standard Six by looking from a reasonable distance, mechanical variations that could not be readily seen by looking from afar notwithstanding.

                        I finally studied the photos (rather than reading the text) and concluded the Special had sharp creases at the sides of the hood, whereas the Standard had rounded sides on the hood...as does David Neitzel's Standard Duplex Phaeton, of course.

                        And, yes, had there not been a 1920s Standard, there might not have been a 1963 Standard.

                        Only I understand the 1920s Standard made money for Studebaker, whereas every 1963 Standard, in effect, lost money! Gulp. BP
                        We've got to quit saying, "How stupid can you be?" Too many people are taking it as a challenge.

                        Ayn Rand:
                        "You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality."

                        G. K. Chesterton: This triangle of truisms, of father, mother, and child, cannot be destroyed; it can only destroy those civilizations which disregard it.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I forgot to mention earlier: The David Neitzel auction included all David's copies of Antique Studebaker Review and Turning Wheels. He had most issues of Turning Wheels back to about 1976, and a similar collection of Antique Studebaker Review, all in good condition.

                          When the smoke cleared, all the magazines sold for the equivalent of about $1 per year!
                          We've got to quit saying, "How stupid can you be?" Too many people are taking it as a challenge.

                          Ayn Rand:
                          "You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality."

                          G. K. Chesterton: This triangle of truisms, of father, mother, and child, cannot be destroyed; it can only destroy those civilizations which disregard it.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Update Sunday afternoon, August 28: Mark Neitzel called while we were out and left a message of thanks for posting auction information on the forum.

                            He also stated that the white, Big Six Children's Hearse had been sold to a fellow member of father David Neitzel's HAC (Hoosier Auto Club), the general-purpose, multi-make old car touring club of which David was a member just as enthusiastically as he was an SDC /ASC member.

                            Mark did not disclose the new owner's name or selling price, but assured us the Big Six Children's Hearse would be out and about and not tucked away to mold. Good.

                            Perhaps the new owner will visit us here, or on the ASC forum, and introduce himself. BP
                            We've got to quit saying, "How stupid can you be?" Too many people are taking it as a challenge.

                            Ayn Rand:
                            "You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality."

                            G. K. Chesterton: This triangle of truisms, of father, mother, and child, cannot be destroyed; it can only destroy those civilizations which disregard it.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by studegary View Post
                              I am surprised that you didn't order Fred K. Fox's book during the pre-publication period, as I did. I think that you purchased the book at about $100 under market. Is it a numbered or signed edition?
                              How I would love to see an updated version of that book! The research that was done was correct and accurate up until 30 year ago. Since that time much more information has come to light which would further enlighten anyone interested in Studebaker. As I recall, the archives were still not cataloged, having just returned to South Bend, and others such as Richard Quinn, George Krem, Bob Palma have also done extensive research that have been published in Turning Wheels with some verified production numbers. With the 1981/82 originals now getting over $100 a copy, it indicates there is a demand a new 2010 version of this book.

                              Craig

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