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  • studegary
    replied
    I have been offline for a couple of days. John/JDP -Thanks for posting a dozen discrepant items in that engine compartment. I did say a half dozen (6), not 12. My main point was to prevent someone from copying the errors when they are trying to make their car correct. I do have many years experience as the SDC authenticity judge for C/K models, author of the first published SDC Judging Rules and Regulations and much other experience to back up my "self proclaimed" status.

    Gary L.
    Wappinger, NY

    1959 DeLuxe pickup (restomod)

    Leave a comment:


  • studegary
    replied
    I have been offline for a couple of days. John/JDP -Thanks for posting a dozen discrepant items in that engine compartment. I did say a half dozen (6), not 12. My main point was to prevent someone from copying the errors when they are trying to make their car correct. I do have many years experience as the SDC authenticity judge for C/K models, author of the first published SDC Judging Rules and Regulations and much other experience to back up my "self proclaimed" status.

    Gary L.
    Wappinger, NY

    1959 DeLuxe pickup (restomod)

    Leave a comment:


  • Dick Steinkamp
    replied
    quote:Originally posted by JDP
    one judge was writing stuff down for their guide. i.e. the color of the hood latch springs, the asbestos cover on the choke heat tube. Did I mention we need a judging guide for the club.
    I guess this discussion should be in the "Judging Forum", so I apologize in advance for continuing it. [B)].

    IMHO, if things like hood latch spring colors and the type, length, color of the asbestos cover on the choke heat tube are to be included in a judging guide, it will never happen.

    Think how many thousands and thousands of details like that exist just under the hood of a 1963 Avanti. The "guide" for that little piece of judging would be a rather thick book...then think about documenting those details for the whole car...now how about every year and model that Studebaker ever built...then documenting serial number cut offs for all the running changes during each and every model/year...how about documenting all the subtle build and/or part differences between Studebaker factories for each and every model/year. [:0].

    Someone (any volunteers?) probably could start on one year and one model, but by the time it is completed I will be long gone for sure. It would take years and years of dedicated research, and in the very end, much of the authenticity would have to be "declared" anyway due to lack of substantiated back up...right or wrong.

    I have ONLY heard groaning and moaning about judging...NEVER how much fun someone had having their car judged. Bob set up a special forum for judging complaints to be aired and solutions to be explored. You'd think with the majority (IMHO) of members not satisfied with the judging process that there would be active discussion on that forum to fix things. My guess is that following the South Bend meet that there will be a substantial number of posts here about how unfair the judging was...how they were "robbed"...and that SOMEBODY needs to do SOMETHING about it.

    I think some people are just happiest when they are unhappy


    Leave a comment:


  • Dick Steinkamp
    replied
    quote:Originally posted by JDP
    one judge was writing stuff down for their guide. i.e. the color of the hood latch springs, the asbestos cover on the choke heat tube. Did I mention we need a judging guide for the club.
    I guess this discussion should be in the "Judging Forum", so I apologize in advance for continuing it. [B)].

    IMHO, if things like hood latch spring colors and the type, length, color of the asbestos cover on the choke heat tube are to be included in a judging guide, it will never happen.

    Think how many thousands and thousands of details like that exist just under the hood of a 1963 Avanti. The "guide" for that little piece of judging would be a rather thick book...then think about documenting those details for the whole car...now how about every year and model that Studebaker ever built...then documenting serial number cut offs for all the running changes during each and every model/year...how about documenting all the subtle build and/or part differences between Studebaker factories for each and every model/year. [:0].

    Someone (any volunteers?) probably could start on one year and one model, but by the time it is completed I will be long gone for sure. It would take years and years of dedicated research, and in the very end, much of the authenticity would have to be "declared" anyway due to lack of substantiated back up...right or wrong.

    I have ONLY heard groaning and moaning about judging...NEVER how much fun someone had having their car judged. Bob set up a special forum for judging complaints to be aired and solutions to be explored. You'd think with the majority (IMHO) of members not satisfied with the judging process that there would be active discussion on that forum to fix things. My guess is that following the South Bend meet that there will be a substantial number of posts here about how unfair the judging was...how they were "robbed"...and that SOMEBODY needs to do SOMETHING about it.

    I think some people are just happiest when they are unhappy


    Leave a comment:


  • GTtim
    replied
    John, cry on and tell your tale of woe and I honestly don't mean to belittle it at all. It deserves to be told and retold and unfortunately it still happens. I know, personally, of a lot of effort put into a car only for the owner to see it judged 30 points lower in Omaha than it was previously. S**t happens! I don't like it either. Long story short, more effort needs to be put in to the judging process and resources for judges. Until judges are given the kind of resource they need to be able to perform their job with consistency, I think it is pointless to criticize them for fairness. I believe that, in the main, they try their level best. The job is loaded with possibilities for subjective interpretation and there are a million objective criteria to remember and sort out. I'm not saying judges shouldn't be held accountable, everyone that I've talked to that has been a judge, expects that. We should, however, try to stick to the constructive points if we want the issue to move forward.

    Tim K.
    '64 R2 GT Hawk

    Leave a comment:


  • GTtim
    replied
    John, cry on and tell your tale of woe and I honestly don't mean to belittle it at all. It deserves to be told and retold and unfortunately it still happens. I know, personally, of a lot of effort put into a car only for the owner to see it judged 30 points lower in Omaha than it was previously. S**t happens! I don't like it either. Long story short, more effort needs to be put in to the judging process and resources for judges. Until judges are given the kind of resource they need to be able to perform their job with consistency, I think it is pointless to criticize them for fairness. I believe that, in the main, they try their level best. The job is loaded with possibilities for subjective interpretation and there are a million objective criteria to remember and sort out. I'm not saying judges shouldn't be held accountable, everyone that I've talked to that has been a judge, expects that. We should, however, try to stick to the constructive points if we want the issue to move forward.

    Tim K.
    '64 R2 GT Hawk

    Leave a comment:


  • JDP
    replied
    Tim
    I personally love tough, but fair judges. For me, the purpose of the judging is to improve the quality of the restoration. My point of whining is to appeal for fairness. When you have 10 GT's that are judged 20-30 points lower at one meet then they ever had, it's pretty frustrating. It's doubly troubling when it happens after spending a year and a grand or so on picking up a few points over your last show and dropping 20. The kicker for me was that most of the authenticity deductions were undocumented so we had no way to know what we'd done "wrong".
    I whined here and in my Turning Wheels article in hopes that others would not stop showing their cars as many of us did after 6-7 years of what I feel was poor judging by one team at the International meet. That team has now moved on and I've seen major improvements recently. Judges are human, they work hard, but we need some sort of standard in the club to make the judging more consistent from meet to meet. With a judging manual at least the judges would know what's correct from meet to meet.
    i.e. the Avanti guy that loses points for a NOS "flash chromed" air cleaner' to a show chrome unit would not be docked, nor would I for having the correct cigarette lighter in my car. I don't mind a deduction for the staples on a rubber flap going in from the wrong side, but do mind being docked for having the right stuff or losing points for mystery items not listed.
    I only had one full tilt, anal restoration left in me, so I'll cry like a baby until I see everyone treated fairly.

    64 Commander 2 dr.
    64 Daytona HT
    63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk (Black) #2
    63 Avanti R1
    63 Daytona convert
    63 Lark 2 door
    63 Lark 2 door #2
    62 Daytona HT/ 4 speed
    62 Lark 2 door
    62 GT Hawk 4 speed
    60 Lark HT
    60 Hawk
    59 3E truck
    52 Starliner
    51 Commander

    Leave a comment:


  • JDP
    replied
    Tim
    I personally love tough, but fair judges. For me, the purpose of the judging is to improve the quality of the restoration. My point of whining is to appeal for fairness. When you have 10 GT's that are judged 20-30 points lower at one meet then they ever had, it's pretty frustrating. It's doubly troubling when it happens after spending a year and a grand or so on picking up a few points over your last show and dropping 20. The kicker for me was that most of the authenticity deductions were undocumented so we had no way to know what we'd done "wrong".
    I whined here and in my Turning Wheels article in hopes that others would not stop showing their cars as many of us did after 6-7 years of what I feel was poor judging by one team at the International meet. That team has now moved on and I've seen major improvements recently. Judges are human, they work hard, but we need some sort of standard in the club to make the judging more consistent from meet to meet. With a judging manual at least the judges would know what's correct from meet to meet.
    i.e. the Avanti guy that loses points for a NOS "flash chromed" air cleaner' to a show chrome unit would not be docked, nor would I for having the correct cigarette lighter in my car. I don't mind a deduction for the staples on a rubber flap going in from the wrong side, but do mind being docked for having the right stuff or losing points for mystery items not listed.
    I only had one full tilt, anal restoration left in me, so I'll cry like a baby until I see everyone treated fairly.

    64 Commander 2 dr.
    64 Daytona HT
    63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk (Black) #2
    63 Avanti R1
    63 Daytona convert
    63 Lark 2 door
    63 Lark 2 door #2
    62 Daytona HT/ 4 speed
    62 Lark 2 door
    62 GT Hawk 4 speed
    60 Lark HT
    60 Hawk
    59 3E truck
    52 Starliner
    51 Commander

    Leave a comment:


  • GTtim
    replied
    Oh my god, let the whining begin! If you choose to have your car judged, don't wear your heart on your sleeve. Everyone is human and hopefully tries to be fair, but there is a lot out there to learn and the learning curve is very steep. Manuals and factory photos would be very beneficial, but those aids haven't been organized yet. I can understand people being upset that they weren't treated fairly, but to paint all judges with a brush that asserts that they are all vendetta seeking spoiled sports doesn't give credit to the many people that try very hard to carry out the process. A judges job, is to find fault with how the car appears and apply that process evenly to every car they look at. You may think it is inconsequential that your car doesn't have the correct wipers or some tag or other, but if that is what the judge has on their list that day, you deserve the deduction. Moral of the story is, if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Just my two cents.

    Tim K.
    '64 R2 GT Hawk

    Leave a comment:


  • GTtim
    replied
    Oh my god, let the whining begin! If you choose to have your car judged, don't wear your heart on your sleeve. Everyone is human and hopefully tries to be fair, but there is a lot out there to learn and the learning curve is very steep. Manuals and factory photos would be very beneficial, but those aids haven't been organized yet. I can understand people being upset that they weren't treated fairly, but to paint all judges with a brush that asserts that they are all vendetta seeking spoiled sports doesn't give credit to the many people that try very hard to carry out the process. A judges job, is to find fault with how the car appears and apply that process evenly to every car they look at. You may think it is inconsequential that your car doesn't have the correct wipers or some tag or other, but if that is what the judge has on their list that day, you deserve the deduction. Moral of the story is, if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Just my two cents.

    Tim K.
    '64 R2 GT Hawk

    Leave a comment:


  • mbstude
    replied
    quoteid I mention that it doesn't sound like much fun to have your car judged?
    I agree with ya on this one. IMO, who cares if a little tag is missing? What's the point in having the car if you spend all your time making it 100% factory correct rather than enjoying it? (As in driving it...)

    __________________________________

    Matthew Burnette
    Hazlehurst, Georgia
    '59 Scotsman PU
    '63 Daytona HT


    http://mbstudebaker.blogspot.com/


    Leave a comment:


  • mbstude
    replied
    quoteid I mention that it doesn't sound like much fun to have your car judged?
    I agree with ya on this one. IMO, who cares if a little tag is missing? What's the point in having the car if you spend all your time making it 100% factory correct rather than enjoying it? (As in driving it...)

    __________________________________

    Matthew Burnette
    Hazlehurst, Georgia
    '59 Scotsman PU
    '63 Daytona HT


    http://mbstudebaker.blogspot.com/


    Leave a comment:


  • JDP
    replied
    You need to get lucky and get reamed by the judges to get it out of your system and save your time and money in the future. A whole bunch of GT Hawk owners learned that lesson and quit competing. It's like the guy that posted the picture of the nice, but not perfect Packard Hawk engine. We all ganged up on him and proved we could find a few defects, some judges decide they'll prove they can find more defects on nice cars then the next judge. The better job you do, the harder they'll look.

    64 Commander 2 dr.
    64 Daytona HT
    63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk (Black) #2
    63 Avanti R1
    63 Daytona convert
    63 Lark 2 door
    63 Lark 2 door #2
    62 Daytona HT/ 4 speed
    62 Lark 2 door
    62 GT Hawk 4 speed
    60 Lark HT
    60 Hawk
    59 3E truck
    52 Starliner
    51 Commander

    Leave a comment:


  • JDP
    replied
    You need to get lucky and get reamed by the judges to get it out of your system and save your time and money in the future. A whole bunch of GT Hawk owners learned that lesson and quit competing. It's like the guy that posted the picture of the nice, but not perfect Packard Hawk engine. We all ganged up on him and proved we could find a few defects, some judges decide they'll prove they can find more defects on nice cars then the next judge. The better job you do, the harder they'll look.

    64 Commander 2 dr.
    64 Daytona HT
    63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk (Black) #2
    63 Avanti R1
    63 Daytona convert
    63 Lark 2 door
    63 Lark 2 door #2
    62 Daytona HT/ 4 speed
    62 Lark 2 door
    62 GT Hawk 4 speed
    60 Lark HT
    60 Hawk
    59 3E truck
    52 Starliner
    51 Commander

    Leave a comment:


  • Dick Steinkamp
    replied
    quote:Originally posted by JDP
    the color of the hood latch springs, the asbestos cover on the choke heat tube.
    Did I mention that it doesn't sound like much fun to have your car judged? [)]




    Leave a comment:

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