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  • water injection

    i was reading the new june 2009 issue of hot rod when i came accross an art. on water injection. i used water injection on most of the cars i have owned andv really sware by them.i usually made my own but i always used carbs and naturally aspirated engines. so if anyone is interested check it out. they really work

    vacuum

  • #2
    I used it on a high compression Olds I had. It was vacuum operated. Was yours vacuum operated or pressurized? I've been thinking about this lately because I didn't want to have to put hardened seats in my 185.

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    • #3
      And water injection does not require hardened exhaust valve seats because?

      thnx, jack vines

      PackardV8
      PackardV8

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      • #4
        I don't see what water injection has to do with hardened valve seats. Water injection cools the fuel charge and delays detonation, which means higher compression and more spark advance might be used under some circumstances. Hardened valve seats became necessary due to tetraethyl lead being removed from gasoline...the lead was a cheap valve lubricant. Hardened valve seats were necessary to prevent excessive wear. Compression and detonation have little or nothing to do with it.




        Poet...Mystic...Soldier of Fortune. As always...self-absorbed, adversarial, cocky and in general a malcontent.
        Poet...Mystic...Soldier of Fortune. As always...self-absorbed, adversarial, cocky and in general a malcontent.

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        • #5
          I've been thinking about this lately because I didn't want to have to put hardened seats in my 185 and I'm wondering if that would solve the problem. I'm taking the block in today to grind the one seat that was pitted and I know the guy is going to try and talk me into installing hardened seats. I'd like new valves and guides too, but I'm figuring maybe in a coupla years.

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          • #6
            Can you spell wives tales...

            As Jack (and Gunslinger) notes...please...explain how a NON-combustable liquid/gas allows the exhaust seats to be the soft iron of old.

            You may not know...water does not help the power output of the combustion process. ANY..space that water takes up, should be taken up with air or gasoline...they BOTH will combust and aid power.

            Water injection was...and still is a crutch. Anyone that has built an engine in the past 30ish years that requires water injection...messed up somewhere!
            Either in the selection of -
            1. Compression ratio
            2. Cam shaft design
            3. Cylinder head design
            4. Timing
            6. Air inlet (too hot)
            7. Any combination of the above

            Do yourself a favor, pick parts that work together and will work with the current availibility of fuel, air you have on hand. Your engine will be much happier for it.

            Mike

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            • #7
              Back in WWII, the military added water injection to the engines of fighter planes to boost power...under combat conditions only. It was called War Emergency Power and was only to be used in actual air-to-air combat when additional power was required in a life-or-death combat situation. It was for specific use and limited time only...it was very hard on the engine but necessary under the circumstances.

              The engines were designed for optimal horsepower under normal usage and combat conditions, but the water injection made for the extra edge.

              Water injection for automotive use is not required unless you're drag racing...top fuel dragsters use it for extreme horsepower additions in an already extreme engine. It makes for short engine life...then again, in the top levels of drag racing, the engines are torn down and rebuilt after each run. The racing teams have complete machine shops in their tractor-trailers they bring with them...they have fast tear downs and rebuilding down to a fine art...plus the parts support from sponsors in the right place at the right times.

              As Mike said, if you're using water injection in a street car, something is wrong with how you're engine is built...wrong specs, wrong selection of parts, excessive wear..something is amiss. Water injection may help for awhile, but it's not the cure for the problem and may well make the proper cure more expensive.




              Poet...Mystic...Soldier of Fortune. As always...self-absorbed, adversarial, cocky and in general a malcontent.
              Poet...Mystic...Soldier of Fortune. As always...self-absorbed, adversarial, cocky and in general a malcontent.

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              • #8
                Name me one top fuel team that uses, or has used water injection.
                I truly am curious as to this statement and want to know.
                Thanks!
                Jeff[8D]



                quote:Originally posted by Gunslinger

                <snip>
                Water injection for automotive use is not required unless you're drag racing...top fuel dragsters use it for extreme horsepower additions in an already extreme engine. It makes for short engine life...then again, in the top levels of drag racing, the engines are torn down and rebuilt after each run. The racing teams have complete machine shops in their tractor-trailers they bring with them...they have fast tear downs and rebuilding down to a fine art...plus the parts support from sponsors in the right place at the right times.<snip>
                HTIH (Hope The Info Helps)

                Jeff


                Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain



                Note: SDC# 070190 (and earlier...)

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                • #9
                  To be honest...I can't name any specific team...I only know what I've seen on ESPN when they show the big drag races and explain how they do things. They did specifically mention water injection as they showed step by step prepping the rails for each run. I saw it on television...that means it has to be true, doesn't it? Even then, water injection is really a misnomer...it's a water/alcohol blend I believe. Even the water injection used in WWII was a blend.




                  Poet...Mystic...Soldier of Fortune. As always...self-absorbed, adversarial, cocky and in general a malcontent.
                  Poet...Mystic...Soldier of Fortune. As always...self-absorbed, adversarial, cocky and in general a malcontent.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Old wive's tale hunh..that's the only kind I can get at my age. I guess they used water injection in WWII for when they flipped on a supercharger, or so that they could fly higher where the air was thinner, I'd like to know (cuz I got an inquiring mind). Too bad they didn't know about NOS like those dang huns. Maybe it will cool the charge enough to alleviate some wear. I'll add some "liquid lead" maybe and try that. Better figure something out before I add the turbo, I reckon. If I can get somebody to trade me for one, that is. Now what could be wrong with building a high compression engine that requires water injection to avoid detonation? Free horsepower. Ill take it. Just got my block back. They cut one angle on the seats for $60. I figure that three angle fancy (expensive) stuff will just shorten my seat life. I gotta get this baby together so I can start adapting an Aerostar automatic overdrive to 'er.

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                    • #11
                      In WWII, they used superchargers...either single-stage (P39 and P40) or dual-stage (F6F Hellcat, F4U Corsair, P51 Mustang, P63 Kingcobra), or a supercharger combined with a turbocharger (P47 Thunderbolt, P38 Lightning). Each had its strong and weak points. The blowers worked full-time...not switchable. They controlled the power through several methods...throttle, manifold pressure and rpm adjustments as well as controllable pitch propellers. Some blowers were self-regulating and would automatically switch from low to high blower. Much more sophisticated than auto use, but the needs were far more complex.




                      Poet...Mystic...Soldier of Fortune. As always...self-absorbed, adversarial, cocky and in general a malcontent.
                      Poet...Mystic...Soldier of Fortune. As always...self-absorbed, adversarial, cocky and in general a malcontent.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        [quote]Originally posted by DEEPNHOCK

                        Name me one top fuel team that uses, or has used water injection.
                        I truly am curious as to this statement and want to know.
                        Thanks!
                        Jeff[8D]



                        Or one F1 team, or one Indy car team, or one NASCAR team, or one factory original high performance car.

                        Water injection is as much of a myth as the 100 MPG Fish carburetor. say, did you know that Fish carbs are still available to anyone who wants one? Nobody does.

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                        • #13
                          One angle shortens the life of the seat. Air is passing over a greater area when the valve closes.You want the seat as narrow as possible.

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                          • #14
                            Please read the whole story.
                            Water injection during WWII was NOT used INSIDE of the engines. It was used to cool, by misting into the radiators of the water cooled planes (such as the RR Merlin). And was sometimes plumbed to help cool the super chargers also as a "mist" from "outside" the intake. The only engines that got direct water were engines that were "not" designed for super chargers...that eventually got them because more power was desired.
                            Rather than replace the higher compression pistons with lower compression versions...they CRUTCHED the system with water. THAT idea was few and far between...this method did not last long.

                            There is NO...I repeat NO "Pro" or Sportsman drag racer today using water that is injected into the intake system. I've raced with a friend for over five years and still see him at Pomona races. I know a lot of the same people that he knows in the Comp. Elim. classes. NO....one uses water in the intake...radiators...yea.
                            Beside...I believe the NHRA may say no also to intake water.

                            Remember...water does NOT.....burn, or make power in any way.

                            Mike

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                            • #15
                              quote:Originally posted by Mike Van Veghten

                              Please read the whole story.
                              Water injection during WWII was NOT used INSIDE of the engines. It was used to cool, by misting into the radiators of the water cooled planes (such as the RR Merlin). And was sometimes plumbed to help cool the super chargers also as a "mist" from "outside" the intake. The only engines that got direct water were engines that were "not" designed for super chargers...that eventually got them because more power was desired.
                              I am guessing the water must have been mixed with some methyl-hydrate to keep it from freezing. The 1962 Olds Turbo-Rocket had factory water (& methyl-hydrate) injection system strictly for anti-knock; not for added performance.

                              Craig

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