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  • Cloverleaf on V8 engine blocks

    The SDC website:

    http://www.studebakerdriversclub.com/V8EngineID.asp

    has a ton of info needed to ID a Studebaker V8 engine. On the last line the table states that a cloverleaf on the block indicates that the engine is a "Replacement heavy duty truck engine." I had thought that an HD truck engine would be the same as an HD taxi or police engine -- no? If so, then the word "truck" shouldn't be in that statement. After all, when Studebaker shipped out one of these long blocks (or short blocks) they had no way of knowing (or controlling) what vehicle it was going to be installed in at the dealer. What am I missing?
    --Dwight

  • #2
    What you have to "Read into this" is it's not a just a Replacement "H.D. ENGINE", it's a "H.D. Truck Engine" only used for the Optional Engine on most Trucks or Standard on E40 Trucks.
    Police and Taxi were so out of the "Norm" that my guess is, they were not considering that rare sometimes Optional occurrence.

    Unless you were a Corp. V.I.P. who could order almost anything, the "Public" would never get a H.D. Engine in a CAR, (Jet Thrust Engines not in that Category).

    Also, I am not sure that a H.D. Engine was Standard on all Taxi/Police/H.D. Sedans.
    A '64 Pursuit Marshall would already have an Avanti Engine and be H.D. already.

    We are getting into splitting Hair's here now so, I guess we just need to know they are H.D.
    Most replacement Engines which were only a Block and Pistons there is no difference.

    On a Short Block, not as often sold, you WOULD get an Aluminum Cam Gear, H.D. Tri-Metal, Clevite 77 Rod Bearings, (3) H.D. Intermediate Main Bearings and Chrome Top Piston Rings.

    Obviously the only reason they did that, is you could not distinguish the H.D. quickly and easily from a Standard Engine because there were no Truck Engine Numbers like on Production Engines that would have told you: 3E = Std. 259, 5E = H.D. 259, 6E = H.D. 289, 7E = Std. 289. (That sequence always blows my mind, just doesn't seem sequential at all).
    Last edited by StudeRich; 12-16-2020, 07:58 PM.
    StudeRich
    Second Generation Stude Driver,
    Proud '54 Starliner Owner

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    • #3
      once saw a cloverleaf block engine in a Hawk in a junkyard. wish I had snagged it. wasn't stuck. when i went back car was gone.

      Comment


      • #4
        What Rich said. HD engines were available as an option on all post-War trucks, and were standard equipment on the E40 2-ton models. They are not listed as an option in car literature. The engines with the cloverleaf mark have different part numbers -- so they would have to have been specifically ordered as such. The word ""truck" is in the definition because those part numbers are only listed in the truck parts books, so presumably were not available as replacement parts for passenger cars. That doesn't mean that some of the HD parts were not included or available on some car engines. For the record, HD six-cylinder truck engines were also available, though their features differed somewhat from the V8s.

        I think some of the confusion today is because back in the 1980s, Newman & Altman ran out of standard 289 replacement engines, and began substituting cloverleaf engines, which had previously been more expensive and intended only for truck use.
        Skip Lackie

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        • #5
          Thanks, guys; I'm further educated now. The statement in SDC's V8 engine ID table stands (or is "confirmed" as they say now in the NFL). The issue came up here because a local SDC member has an opportunity to purchase engine # 5E8154, which has a cloverleaf. According to the engine ID table this is an HD 259 for a 3E-series 1957-58 truck. The engine is stuck, so he is debating how much to offer for it.
          --Dwight

          Comment


          • #6
            When I bought my 63 Standard 2 door with 259 and 3 speed no overdrive and 307 rear end in 1989 from the original owner he told me that in 1974 the engine need to be replaced or rebuilt and since he could get a new short block from standard surplus for about $175.00 he went that way. He ordered it from the dealer he bought the car from Milton motors of Oakland , Ca. So he ordered a 289 to replace the 259 and he did the replacement him self putting on original 70 heads, 2 bld. carb, single exhaust. when I bought it he said he had put maybe 50K on that engine, I took the car home and got it running since it had set for about a year, new battery, tune up and 4 bld setup since the 2 bld. was leaking from the seams. This thing ran so good and strong I put duel exhaust on it and started cleaning the car for paint. Once painted I installed the interior from my old long gone 65 Daytona sports sedan black in color dash and all. This SOB with the 307 rear end had long legs and with that engine could fly. My guess that the replacement clover leaf engine was an R-1 since it had flat top pistons and was ordered as a 289 from Standard surplus. People have told me that there were no clover leaf R-1 engines and all I said if not then this has to be the fastest 259 around, as years pasted the engine came out to clean under the hood so at that time the pan was dropped and crank numbers check and sure enough a 289 crank was part of this engine, when engine was put back in car it got a 4 speed and 373 TT rear end and with radius rods was still in the car when I sold it some years ago , it was and is still a very fast 2 door sedan. so clover leaf R-1 engines Yes they were built and sold as short blocks. This engine also got a set of R-3 cast headers.
            Last edited by candbstudebakers; 12-17-2020, 07:46 AM.
            Candbstudebakers
            Castro Valley,
            California


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            • #7
              Originally posted by candbstudebakers View Post
              . so clover leaf R-1 engines Yes they were built and sold as short blocks.
              Hi, Bob,

              We'll have to file this in the Yes, No, Maybe. Could have happened that way; since it was built by a previous owner no longer with us, could have been something else entirely. We've had so many engines come in with third-party legends attached to them which upon disassembly were nothing like what the guy was told he had.

              My first experience with this goes back more than fifty years. A distant relative had a 289" 2-bbl engine rebuild done and it pinged terribly. As ours was the Studebaker branch of the family, I was asked to look at it. Turned out, when pressed, the local dealer mechanic admitted he had used R1 pistons they had on the shelf. Too much compression made even worse by the stock cam; it had 220 PSI cranking compression and would ping even on premium gas. I ended up swapping her a good running 259". She was very happy because she could again fill at the regular gas pump.

              Some years back, a Seattle SDC member sold me a 289". I verified the P engine number and looked in the spark plug hole and verified it had dished pistons. Upon disassembly, I found they were swung by a 259" crank. It probably had been running with 6:1 compression or less.

              Bob, with your long experience, if you think back, you've found similar bitsa builds. If it's not in print in Studebaker manuals, we remain skeptics.

              jack vines







              PackardV8

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              • #8
                All of these Posts are good informative information that some people could learn from.

                It should be noted however that the Post Started out for the Most Part about Unnumbered Blocks, it should be remembered that the few Numbered Blocks, with Clover leaf stamps installed at the Factory, are a bit of a different story, those COULD BE, H.D. Sedan/Taxi/Police?

                Dwight, the Engine you know of doesn't have a Clover Leaf AND a 5E-8154 does it?
                StudeRich
                Second Generation Stude Driver,
                Proud '54 Starliner Owner

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                • #9
                  Without digging for part numbers of cloverleaf engines I can only say some had valve rotators and some did not.
                  So.....if I'm 'pre-approved' why do you want me to fill out an application?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by StudeRich View Post
                    All of these Posts are good informative information that some people could learn from.

                    It should be noted however that the Post Started out for the Most Part about Unnumbered Blocks, it should be remembered that the few Numbered Blocks, with Clover leaf stamps installed at the Factory, are a bit of a different story, those COULD BE, H.D. Sedan/Taxi/Police?

                    Dwight, the Engine you know of doesn't have a Clover Leaf AND a 5E-8154 does it?
                    Unless I misunderstood that's what he said. I can't reach him right now (phone busy), but I'll confirm/correct this info as soon as I can.
                    --Dwight

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Back in about 1969. I bought a 61 Hawk w/4 speed for $200. One time the late Don Curtis came to visit an noticed it had a cloverleaf full flow engine . It was a strong runner.

                      Denny L

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by PackardV8 View Post
                        Hi, Bob,

                        We'll have to file this in the Yes, No, Maybe. Could have happened that way; since it was built by a previous owner no longer with us, could have been something else entirely. We've had so many engines come in with third-party legends attached to them which upon disassembly were nothing like what the guy was told he had.

                        My first experience with this goes back more than fifty years. A distant relative had a 289" 2-bbl engine rebuild done and it pinged terribly. As ours was the Studebaker branch of the family, I was asked to look at it. Turned out, when pressed, the local dealer mechanic admitted he had used R1 pistons they had on the shelf. Too much compression made even worse by the stock cam; it had 220 PSI cranking compression and would ping even on premium gas. I ended up swapping her a good running 259". She was very happy because she could again fill at the regular gas pump.

                        Some years back, a Seattle SDC member sold me a 289". I verified the P engine number and looked in the spark plug hole and verified it had dished pistons. Upon disassembly, I found they were swung by a 259" crank. It probably had been running with 6:1 compression or less.

                        Bob, with your long experience, if you think back, you've found similar bitsa builds. If it's not in print in Studebaker manuals, we remain skeptics.

                        jack vines






                        Jack are you saying that no R-1 engines had clover leaf markings? The engine I am talking about I believe to be one since I got it from the original owner and along with came the order sheet from Standard surplus for a 289, I could see the flat top pistons through the plug holes and when pan was off I could see the 289 crank numbers and this came as a short block, no reason to believe it was any thing else also when driving it I know it was not as 259 or 289 stock engine, one can also tell the difference when a R-1 starts compared to a stock 289 This engine ran stronger than any other Studebaker engine other than a R-2.
                        Candbstudebakers
                        Castro Valley,
                        California


                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by StudeRich View Post
                          All of these Posts are good informative information that some people could learn from.

                          It should be noted however that the Post Started out for the Most Part about Unnumbered Blocks, it should be remembered that the few Numbered Blocks, with Clover leaf stamps installed at the Factory, are a bit of a different story, those COULD BE, H.D. Sedan/Taxi/Police?

                          Dwight, the Engine you know of doesn't have a Clover Leaf AND a 5E-8154 does it?
                          Yes, It does. I just talked to the fellow here who is considering buying the engine and he confirmed that the engine has "5E8154" and a cloverleaf (upper left corner) stamped on the pad. He also said that it looks like a factory-stamped number.
                          --Dwight

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by candbstudebakers View Post
                            Jack are you saying that no R-1 engines had clover leaf markings? The engine I am talking about I believe to be one since I got it from the original owner and along with came the order sheet from Standard surplus for a 289, I could see the flat top pistons through the plug holes and when pan was off I could see the 289 crank numbers and this came as a short block, no reason to believe it was any thing else also when driving it I know it was not as 259 or 289 stock engine, one can also tell the difference when a R-1 starts compared to a stock 289 This engine ran stronger than any other Studebaker engine other than a R-2.
                            I think that's what Jack was saying, and I agree with him -- if we are talking about FACTORY engines. The cloverleaf symbol indicated a series of heavy duty features that were intended to lengthen the life of truck engines. The Jet Thrust section of the car chassis parts book doesn't include listings of several of those parts. That is not to say that a dealer, N&A, or an owner couldn't have installed R1 pistons, etc, in a new or used cloverleaf block. A lot can happen in 55 years.
                            Skip Lackie

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                            • #15
                              What ever this engine is a R-1 with clover leaf.
                              Candbstudebakers
                              Castro Valley,
                              California


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