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1963 Avanti on ebay has incorrect VIN

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  • 64V-K7
    replied
    It's interesting enough that the chassis and body number are 1 digit apart

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  • Dwight FitzSimons
    replied
    Glory be, the dealer finally revealed the Avanti's serial number! It's 63R1735, so evidently the serial number plate is still on the frame. He also put a terse note about that on his ebay listing, something to the effect of: "Number on frame is R1735." We know that it is actually (or should be) 63R1735. So now a buyer will have to deal with the issue of the wrong number being on the California title. With a price of $9999 the car probably won't go anywhere anytime soon. 7-8 years ago my brother bought a rather nice '64 Avanti (R1, AT, AC, excellent interior, not running, needing paint) on ebay for $7000. Sellers now seem to ask $10k for junk.
    -Dwight

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  • Green 53
    replied
    Several years ago I bought a 62 convertible from a later known dishonest vendor. It had a New Mexico title that I had a terrible time getting a Nebraska title. Checked production order and it was from a 62 two door hardtop

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  • Chris Pile
    replied
    That's just TERRIBLE Chris, I can't believe that happens in America! Some over zealous "Control Freak" Senator or Rep. must be out of control in Kansas!
    In this case, the control freaks are the HP officers. Savvy folks know which stations to avoid. It's really bad for guys who bring cars in from out of state.

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  • StudeRich
    replied
    That's just TERRIBLE Chris, I can't believe that happens in America!
    Some over zealous "Control Freak" Senator or Rep. must be out of control in Kansas!

    On the West Coast, all of the States issue "Collector" Plates based solely on the Year Model of the Title and Vehicle, no need to LOOK at the Car!

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  • Chris Pile
    replied
    I think the biggest issue is when someone lives in a different State than the current Title State, then you are totally at the mercy of THAT State's rules, regulations and Law which as has been mentioned, varies a LOT!
    Indeed, Rich - and in Kansas, the Highway Patrol does the inspecting who has equipped themselves with brand specific books for older stuff, and they KNOW the diff between serial numbers, VIN's, and all the rest. They know to crawl under a Studebaker and look for the number on the frame. It's a real pain for modded Studebakers when the owner wants antique tags. They want it stone stock (not even radial tires) to issue an antique tag. To add to the confusion, many HP stations allow some leeway, and others don't. There is a big fuss right now in Kansas, and SEMA is about to get involved in an attempt to settle it once and for all.

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  • StudeRich
    replied
    That issue is as bad as the one created when Calif. and Studebaker came up with that crazy plan to sell left over '63 Avantis as '64 Year Models!

    The Dealer had to get the correct Alpha Dies to stamp an "A" or a "B" onto the end of the Serial Number down there on the Frame!

    What I have to wonder is, WHY only Calif.?

    My late '63 R1 63R4275 is a Calif. Title "Body Type" = "Sed64R" and has the Calif. and Studebaker approved "A" at the end of the Serial Number on the Plate.

    Calif. has the added advantage that probably few or no other's do, they have a provision on their titles for a "Year Sold" as well as 'Year Model" so when you buy a left over last year's Car it can be noted First Sold in the following or ANY year.

    I would think that process would have handled this issue without all the craziness.
    Last edited by StudeRich; 06-06-2019, 01:41 PM.

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  • Dwight FitzSimons
    replied
    Originally posted by StudeRich View Post
    I think the biggest issue is when someone lives in a different State than the current Title State, then you are totally at the mercy of THAT State's rules, regulations and Law which as has been mentioned, varies a LOT!
    Good point!
    -Dwight

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  • StudeRich
    replied
    I think the biggest issue is when someone lives in a different State than the current Title State, then you are totally at the mercy of THAT State's rules, regulations and Law which as has been mentioned, varies a LOT!

    Leave a comment:


  • Dwight FitzSimons
    replied
    Originally posted by Hallabutt View Post
    I'm far from being an expert, so maybe just muddying the waters. I kind of wonder if it makes any difference as long as the plate appears as factory attached and accepted by a state DMV. As I recall VIN is not even a concept until much later. It was simply called a serial number, and really had no relationship with what would later be called a VIN on later cars. I doubt the any Studebaker ever had what we know today to be a VIN number. Remember many states simply used the engine number for the purposes of registration. This has sometimes proved problematic, but not overwhelming, at time of registration. There was also a program in some states referred to as "guaranteed title states," that would actually remove a serial number plate and attach their own ID plate, at the time an out of state car was inspected. Each state has its own system and it would behoove anyone bidding to understand what their state requires.
    (1) Perhaps I should have called it a serial number plate, but the difference is just a semantics issue, not a legal one. The older serial number plate is just as serious as the newer VIN plate to Virginia's DMV--believe me. Why wouldn't it be? At the time of manufacture all the car manufacturers supplied relevant info to all the state DMVs regarding serial number plate location, hidden serial numbers on the cars, the meaning of parts of the S/N (the "64" in 64V12345 is a '64 model, for example), etc. The buyer might keep a straight face at his DMV and get the car titled in his name using the body number. After all, the agents at your local DMV don't know much about old cars. When I bought my '64 Cruiser it was titled as a 1963-64, having been sold in the fall of '63 in Virginia. The clerk lopped off the 64 part and handed me back a new title listing the year as 1963. I told her it was a '64 Studebaker, not a '63. She sent the title to Richmond and 2 weeks later a new title arrived in the mail, listing the year as 1964.

    Anyway, the serial number plate on the frame is the only legitimate vehicle identification number for an Avanti. Getting the car titled with the body number might go without a hitch, but then again, it might bite someone in the butt now or down the road. I wouldn't buy that '63 Avanti with that error on the title. A novice buyer who doesn't know about Avanti S/Ns might get a rude surprise later.

    (2) For a car that has no title Virginia's DMV will attach its own vehicle identification plate on the car and issue a title with that number. There has to be some history of ownership of the car in order to avoid, in effect, laundering a stolen car.

    (3) In the early '50s Virginia, too, used the car's engine number on the title, but they haven't done that for a long, long time.

    -Dwight

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  • studegary
    replied
    Originally posted by Hallabutt View Post
    I'm far from being an expert, so maybe just muddying the waters. I kind of wonder if it makes any difference as long as the plate appears as factory attached and excepted by a state DMV. As I recall VIN is not even a concept until much later. It was simply called a serial number, and really had no relationship with what would later be called a VIN on later cars. I doubt the any Studebaker ever had what we know today to be a VIN number. Remember many states simply used the engine number for the purposes of registration. This has sometimes proved problematic, but not overwhelming, at time of registration. There was also a program in some states referred to as "guaranteed title states," that would actually remove a serial number plate and attache their own ID plate, at the time an out of state car was inspected. Each state has it's own system and it would behoove anyone bidding to understand what their state requires.
    I believe that the answer lies in your own quote. You state that it would be "excepted by a state DMV". I believe this to be true in that it would not be accepted. I agree that there was no true VIN at that time. The big difference is that the Serial Number plate is (nearly) permanently attached to the vehicle and the body number plate is held on with two screws (most Studebakers, I forget what holds them on Avantis) and is easily moved/transferred.

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  • Hallabutt
    replied
    I'm far from being an expert, so maybe just muddying the waters. I kind of wonder if it makes any difference as long as the plate appears as factory attached and excepted by a state DMV. As I recall VIN is not even a concept until much later. It was simply called a serial number, and really had no relationship with what would later be called a VIN on later cars. I doubt the any Studebaker ever had what we know today to be a VIN number. Remember many states simply used the engine number for the purposes of registration. This has sometimes proved problematic, but not overwhelming, at time of registration. There was also a program in some states referred to as "guaranteed title states," that would actually remove a serial number plate and attache their own ID plate, at the time an out of state car was inspected. Each state has it's own system and it would behoove anyone bidding to understand what their state requires.

    Leave a comment:


  • creegster
    replied
    It would appear that they dont really care that much and just want to sell the vehicle.

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  • 64V-K7
    replied
    I emailed the Ebay seller, explaining the difference in #'s and where to find the correct ones. The response was the same.

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  • tsenecal
    replied
    I took a look at the Avanti, as well as the other Avantis listed on Ebay. There is another 63 listed with the body number as the Vin. He has a picture of the build sheet, with the correct Vin number shown. It may just be listed that way, and the title could be correct.

    Leave a comment:

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