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Update to this thread. Fan installed & starter fixed

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  • #16
    I've posted about this before. After this many years, the starter armature has probably "swelled" and is out of round. Several people I know have taken the armature and had a couple of thousanths shaved off on a lathe. That usually fixes the slow-start-when-hot problem.

    Found a thread where Jerry Kurtz went into a little more detail. http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.c...arter-problems

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    • #17
      Charlie
      One way to qualify your starter would be to install a known good starter and see if that cures your slow-crank condition.
      Was your starter rebuilt while you engine was being overhauled?
      I think I tend to agree with Matt, it is sounding like there is a starter problem.

      My President water temp will tend to creep up under excessive idle time on a hot day. I suspect a Tulsa hot day is somewhat warmer than a Maine hot day. Something I haven't done is to clean my water jacket passages, something I would expect would have been included in your overhaul.

      how did the trunk mat project you started earlier this year work out?

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      • #18
        "Once again for about 5-6 seconds it was cranking very slow. Then an interesting phenomenon happened. It suddenly speeded up to normal fast cranking speed and the engine started immediately."

        This would make me think it's faulty battery or bad connection, but without voltage and amp readings, this is still a guessing game.
        You might also want to check for voltage drop across the two starter relay terminals while it's slow cranking.

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        • #19
          Thank you guys for all the feedback. My late 55 President State Sedan parts car has the starter in it. The guys in the local club have provided me with some recommendations for local repair services. I may have both of them worked on and sale one later on. It will be a while before I can report how things came out as I am recovering from a rotator cuff surgery. Almost everyone said, including the surgeon, I was looking at 5-6 months and I am starting to believe them. The surgery was three months ago and I see the surgeon tomorrow. I am hoping she will release me for strengthening therapy. I have recovered most of the range of motion.

          The trunk mat project had to be put on hold with everything else on the Studebaker. I am very excited however about its progress. Steve Remick has the original trunk mat in his '55 President State Sedan. He sent me several photos of it and I had started working on a pattern to have a mat sewn up for my car but injured myself about half-way into that. I was pleasantly surprised at how close the color of the material I bought to use was to his. The pattern however is not the same. The material in his showed a distinct diagonal pattern and the material I have shows a distinct horizontal and vertical pattern in the weaving.

          I can hardly wait until I can get back to tinkering on things.

          Charlie D.

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          • #20
            Along with checking and repairing any corroded, loose, funky connections.
            Are the battery cables new ?
            The cables can look good but be corroded inside.
            If you are going to get new cables, 1/0 is good, 2/0 would be better.
            Move the ground from the manifold to the starter mounting bolt.
            South Lompoc Studebaker

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            • #21
              When I first brought my 51 Champion home I tackled the “slow starter” and gradual battery drain. I believe it’s under a post “Starter Solenioid” here.

              My issues were with a faulty old solenoid, but after a new battery, starter switch and lightening up to a 10W-30, I bought a “Battery Tender Jr.” and it’s the best thing I’ve ever done. Instant starts, digital circuitry guaranteed to not overcharge the battery and easy to read status lights. They are amazing for our seldom-driven cars.

              Now I plug in every night, just like a Tesla!

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              • #22
                PM sent
                Kim

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by TWChamp View Post
                  "Once again for about 5-6 seconds it was cranking very slow. Then an interesting phenomenon happened. It suddenly speeded up to normal fast cranking speed and the engine started immediately."

                  This would make me think it's faulty battery or bad connection, but without voltage and amp readings, this is still a guessing game.
                  You might also want to check for voltage drop across the two starter relay terminals while it's slow cranking.
                  If cable or connection is getting hot, you are loosing power right there. No cable or connection should get hot at all. There is resistance there and the (I^2)*R is rejected as heat and the I*R is a voltage drop on the way to the starter. So that heat means you have less than 6 volt at the starter. I have 15 antique tractors, most are 6 Volt. First thing I look for when they turn slowly is any hot connections. I hope that helps.

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                  • #24
                    Fan installation – I screwed up, again!!

                    I got a 16” MaraDyne 6 volt fan in today. I looked at some of the pictures of the restoration work and discovered the radiator support had a brace welded across it. I knew I could not mount the fan with that there. I went out and removed the upper radiator air deflector and got a very unpleasant surprise. The core of the radiator measures 24” wide and 14 ½” deep. I wish I would have taken the 15 minutes to get this off before I ordered the 16” fan.


                    I was able to save messing up again by noticing that a 14” would not work either. Monday I am going to see if I can ship the 16” fan back and get a 12”. Carl Purdy has warned me about running tie straps that come with the fan through the core itself as the directions call for. He said he had problems when they came loose and damaged the fins on his radiator.


                    Since the radiator support is tied into the fan shroud and the inner fenders I cannot see a problem with grinding the support off and mounting the fan using metal straps from the support to the fan. It also looks like I will need to remove the lower valance and possibly the center grill to get good enough access to the radiator support to mount the fan correctly.


                    I plan to pull power from the 12 gauge wire going to the horn relay. That will go through a 6 volt fan relay and on to the fan. I plan to use a toggle in the dash to turn the fan on only when I need it. I thought about not posting this because it is such a stupid mistake. I have tried not to withhold all the other blunders that I have made on the car over the past seven years so why try to hide a perfectly mistake riddled reputation.


                    Charlie D.

                    100_0977.jpgDSCF7178.jpg

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                    • #25
                      Most electric Mods I have seen use tiny little Fans sometimes Two, using one almost as large as the Radiator Height seems to me like overkill.
                      Have all the non-mod Cooling System "Fixes" recommended here, been tried and failed?

                      FYI: I have something I see that you should check.
                      Most of that style Rad. Cap I have stocked and sold were for 3/4 Inch newer car Radiator Necks, a '53 to '55 has a 1 Inch reach, so it will not work, I would check that just in case.
                      StudeRich
                      Second Generation Stude Driver,
                      Proud '54 Starliner Owner



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                      • #26
                        FWIW I had a similar hot start problem. The engine would snap to life when cold however when hot as you describe about a cylinder per second. I changed starters, battery, cables to no avail. It was suggested to me to when the engine was hot try to turn it over by hand at the fan, if it is stiff that would indicate an internal problem, it took greater than 50lbs of torque to turn the engine by hand when hot however only minimal when cold. The engine was removed and completely disassembled to find the rod bearings severely scrubbed indicative of no or insufficient oil getting to them. (from original assembly the engine had 12 hours running). Further in to the investigation it was found that the main oil passages were mostly blocked with debris and starving the rod bearings of oil. After the minor surgery the engine was re assembled with new rod bearings, the hot starts are now in the past.

                        A quick test is to turn the engine over by hand when hot to determine how much resistance.

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                        • #27
                          Update! The starter situation appears to be fixed!!

                          Gentlemen,

                          Thank you for all your advice and suggestions. I took the starter off the ’55 President State Sedan parts car and my car to Shorty’s Electric here in Tulsa. My starter checked out and they put a new field coil in the parts car’s starter. He said both were ready to go.

                          I cleaned and painted the parts car’s starter making sure that no paint was on anything touching the converter housing. I sanded all the area around were the starter would bolt to.

                          Dan Manko had suggested checking the connections and that is what I did (at last). Many of you had probably assumed that I had already done that. Plus, I had made sure they were all done well during the restoration. Every connection was checked and I think the culprit was the frame to engine ground strap. I put a socket on the screw that secured one end and it was loose, only finger tight. There was some rust looking residue on that end of the strap. I took a die-grinder with sanding disc and cleaned the strap, motor mount, and engine where the strap would fasten to. The strap was reinstalled tightly.

                          I made a gas run of 26 miles and when I returned I let it idle without the pusher fan that I have installed. When it was at the top of the normal range I turned it off and waited five minutes or so before trying to start it again. When I turned the key, the starter whirled and the engine fired right up. I was a happy camper!

                          Charlie D.

                          100_1097.JPG100_1182.jpg100_1194.JPG100_1204.jpg

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                          • #28
                            Another Update! A pusher fan was installed.

                            Gentlemen,

                            I decided to go ahead and install a 6 volt pusher fan. I ordered a MaraDyne 12” fan off eBay for $65 and free shipping. The support rod that runs in front of the radiator was in my way and I thought about cutting it off but John Kimbrough cautioned me not to. I decided a work-a-round could be done with a 2” strip of 20 gauge galvanized metal that a friend gave me. This was pop riveted to fan.

                            The places where the ¾” deep notches needed to be cut were determined and tin snips took care of those. A nice surprise was that tie straps could be put around the rod and the bent out notches to hold the fan in place while the installation was completed.

                            Some silicone suction hose with heat resistance to 350 degrees was slit and put on the metal to protect the radiator core. Brackets were made out of the 20 gauge metal and bolted to the fan and pop riveted to the radiator support bracket.

                            A 6-volt fan relay was installed near the radiator. The power was pulled from the 12 gauge wire at the horn relay. An inline 20 amp fuse was used. A toggle switch was installed under the dash near the momentary switch for the electric fuel pump.

                            It may be too late in the summer to properly test its effectiveness but I used it a little today when I made a 26 mile fuel run. It was only 87 degrees when I made the run but I know that even in the upper 80s when I let it idle to fill it with gas the needle will go above the normal range. Today I turned the fan on while filling up and the needle went to about 2/3 up the normal range. I knew that it was helping a little.

                            When I got home I wanted to test the starter when the needle was at least to the top of the normal range. It started to climb and when it got to near the top I turned the fan on. The needle stopped rising but neither did it fall any. I turned the fan off and it went up a little more. My conclusion, after this short test drive, is that the fan is going to help at least a little at idle. I hope I will have to wait until next summer to see what it does when the temperature is closer to 100 degrees.

                            Charlie D.
                            100_1112.jpg100_1144.JPG100_1151.jpg100_1164.JPG100_1173.JPG100_1178.jpg100_1180.jpg
                            Last edited by Charlie D; 08-15-2019, 09:46 PM.

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                            • #29
                              I didn't see this thread before but coolingfan, radiator & such interests me, & I didn't read many answers either...
                              One thing I've learned the hard way thou is that if there's room enough behind the rad for the fan it's much better to place it there due to the fact that when it's in the front it blocks some air from cooling the radiator good enough.
                              Been there, sour result, done the change...
                              sigpic

                              Josephine
                              -55
                              Champion V8
                              4d sedan

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                              • #30
                                I replaced the stock nos 170 thermostat with a Moroso hi flow 160 and the pverheat solved. Seems that the higher flo rate was need at idle.

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