Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Fossil Fuel vrs. Electric

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    I'm not convinced that EVs will rule the planet in years to come despite what politicians might say. Let's not forget that some of the earliest vehicles introduced in the early 20th century were electric. Even though they were clean and quiet their limitations resulted in their demise. In the end market demand will determine what the future will look like and if a self contained technology such as the hydrogen fuel cell is found I would say EVs will once again be defunct. The same issues that existed 100 years ago with limited range and the infrastructure to re charge are still problematic.

    I know a fellow who drove his Tesla S from New Brunswick to Ontario, two days of driving or one very long day. Twice he spent 3 hours recharging before he could carry on. In countries like Canada or Australia, even the US, with long stretches of sparsely settled areas, that required infrastructure is unlikely to appear unless EVs are firmly established.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Jeffry Cassel View Post
      Breath-taking stupidity!! The "carbon footprint" of an electric car is about 2 1/2 times that of a gas powered car before it even rolls the first mile. The battery tech requires rare elements that do not exist in adequate quantities for all cars to be electric. Most power plants are coal powered with more becoming gas powered. Every time you convert one form of energy to another you lose efficiency - as much as 90%. If there is anything stupider than a politician ( or more morally bankrupt) I've yet to identify it. They blame our pick-up trucks for rising atmospheric CO2 when the problem in the wanton destruction of rain forests and oceanic phytoplankton. It isn't the internal combustion engine that will kill us all--it is the morons in Washington, Paris, London, and Berlin
      Pretty much my thoughts also. I can see the potential to control vehicle pollution at the end user but the cost in energy to do so is enormous. Just start with a lump of coal and extract 100% of its energy by burning it and boiling water to make steam to power a steam engine to turn a generator to make D.C. current. This D.C. current then needs to be converted to A.C. current and put through a transformer to raise the voltage. The high voltage and AC is necessary to move this power with minimum losses over any reasonable distance (just ask Tesla). After this fraction of the original power arrives close to its point of use it needs to be transformed back to lower AC voltage for use in the home. Then it needs to be transformed back to D.C. and the voltage further reduced to charge a battery in your electric car. Each step mentioned above results in a significant loss in energy/efficiency. By the time the energy from this lump of coal arrives at your home or the battery it's virgin strength has been reduced dramatically. And now we are going to put what's left of this energy into a battery so we can take even less of it back out to put into an electric motor. I guess I just don't get it! The closer to the source you extract the energy the more efficient the process. Maybe each electric car should have a coal fired steam power plant in the trunk, its carbon footprint would certainly be less.
      Last edited by nels; 09-13-2017, 08:35 AM.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Jeffry Cassel View Post
        Breath-taking stupidity!! The "carbon footprint" of an electric car is about 2 1/2 times that of a gas powered car before it even rolls the first mile. The battery tech requires rare elements that do not exist in adequate quantities for all cars to be electric. Most power plants are coal powered with more becoming gas powered. Every time you convert one form of energy to another you lose efficiency - as much as 90%. If there is anything stupider than a politician ( or more morally bankrupt) I've yet to identify it. They blame our pick-up trucks for rising atmospheric CO2 when the problem in the wanton destruction of rain forests and oceanic phytoplankton. It isn't the internal combustion engine that will kill us all--it is the morons in Washington, Paris, London, and Berlin
        Spot on..

        I drove back from CA on Tuesday and was reminded of the lack of education on the carbon foot print of "Green" energy. The hundreds of windmills making the the Greenest CA so happy, without even the understanding of the carbon footprint it took to make the giant blades, generator housing and the pedestal, not to mention the maintenance.

        But one thing started to stick out, literally! There were a few out of date generators laying on the ground with their blades sticking up in the air like the Cadillac farm. Where is the outrage over landfill waist from these outdated or non-repairable "Green Machines?" While some components maybe recycled, the carbon fiber blades can not be.

        Mr Musk sold people on a "Great" idea of clean electric vehicles yet is scrambling to deal with the pollution and waist form the batteries. Those who cry over our land fills that are being polluted by AA batteries will ignore and stay silent over the massive pollution from electric car batteries.

        And at $40,000 for the Tesla battery replacement, you will be seeing used Tesla when their battery capacity hits 20% capabilities in 8 years being given away like a rusted out Studebaker.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by SScopelli View Post
          Spot on..

          I drove back from CA on Tuesday and was reminded of the lack of education on the carbon foot print of "Green" energy. The hundreds of windmills making the the Greenest CA so happy, without even the understanding of the carbon footprint it took to make the giant blades, generator housing and the pedestal, not to mention the maintenance.

          But one thing started to stick out, literally! There were a few out of date generators laying on the ground with their blades sticking up in the air like the Cadillac farm. Where is the outrage over landfill waist from these outdated or non-repairable "Green Machines?" While some components maybe recycled, the carbon fiber blades can not be.

          Mr Musk sold people on a "Great" idea of clean electric vehicles yet is scrambling to deal with the pollution and waist form the batteries. Those who cry over our land fills that are being polluted by AA batteries will ignore and stay silent over the massive pollution from electric car batteries.

          And at $40,000 for the Tesla battery replacement, you will be seeing used Tesla when their battery capacity hits 20% capabilities in 8 years being given away like a rusted out Studebaker.
          Back in the late 1970's and early '89's, I made good money selling Square D terminal blocks to a Dodge Gear manufacturing plant, to install in control panels for the power transmission/converter assemblies for those huge windmills. I would hope, by now, the design and efficiency of those huge turbines have been improved. Although, I understand they continue to take a big toll on bird species that wander into the paths of those big sweeping blades.
          John Clary
          Greer, SC

          SDC member since 1975

          Comment


          • #35
            I would guess pretty much the same conversations were occurring in the early 1900's when the gasoline powered auto was being introduced. Not a very long range, no infrastructure to fuel one, new technology that will never work.

            The range and the fueling infrastructure for EVs is not what it needs to be...yet. But it has come a long ways in just a few years. 3 years ago EVs had a range of 50-80 miles. Now 200 is common. Existing fueling infrastructure has also grown quickly. There are 44,000 public charging stations in the US. Most capable of charging in 30 minutes. Tesla alone has constructed 6.500 with more coming on line weekly. Here in Washington, we have charging stations every 25-50 miles along I5..

            It was easier to keep a horse fed than a car when the auto was being introduced. .



            Similar progress is taking place with the production of electricity. Coal is now #2 and dropping fast as a power source. In California coal accounts for 4% and renewable sources 25% (renewables have gone from 12% to 25% in 7 years with a goal of 50% by 2030). Washington state gets most of its electricity from renewable sources (hydro and wind) and "in 2015, Washington had the lowest average residential retail electricity prices in the nation and the lowest average combined retail electricity price across all sectors."

            So, if EVs' range was going to remain constant forever, and if low cost, renewable energy sources did not continue to come on line, then yes...the EV is doomed. History tells me that is probably not going to happen.


            Henry Ford once said "If I asked people what they needed, they would have told me faster horses".
            Dick Steinkamp
            Bellingham, WA

            Comment


            • #36
              I have no problem with technological advances and market forces bringing EV's to the forefront. I have a huge problem with politicians dictating the process.

              Quote: "That '03 Prius of mine has almost 300,000 miles on it, but it has demanded a new 12 volt battery at least every two years since new..." Yes, a bit redundant to state it is a quote and then put it in quotes, just wanting to make certain.

              I am really surprised that your HV battery is still going at 14 years old. The consensus is about 10 years, with those cars being driven less lasting having a shorter HV battery lifespan, and those being driven more miles lasting longer. That is probably one reason yours is still going. However, when it does go, it is a major expense. I recently bought an 07 with 195k miles and the HV battery was failing. Only paid $1000 for the vehicle, and was curious to see how things worked. I purchased a brand new HV battery from Toyota (my bro owns a shop and his price is less than $2k). Read way too many horror stories about the aftermarket batteries having very short life spans. Yes, I know you can replace individual battery packs within the big battery, but realistically, since it was ten years old, what is the point of liming it along for another one year before another fails. Normally one will pay about $2500 from Toyota when they are on sale, but that does not include labor. Took me about 3 hours total to change it out. I put a set of tires on it, so now have about $3300 in it. It is not using oil (which I understand is NOT typical) and may go another 100,000 miles easily. We use the car to commute 20 miles each way, about 75 percent interstate (where the battery and electric motor are pretty much dead weight) and are averaging an honest 45 mpg. I know others brag about getting much better mileage, but most of those guys are NOT driving it like a normal car. They purposely lose speed up hills, and coast as far as they can every chance they get. Not worth it to me. I drive it just like I would any other econobox. The good thing is that even with the small 1.5 engine, the electric motor helps get it going, so it isn't horrible off the line like some of the econoboxes.

              After doing the math, I figure if you drive about 10,000 miles a year, and attribute about $250 a year to the cost of that big HV batt, and ASSUMING (every thing changes a bit with different numbers) that gas will aveage about $3 a gallon during the next ten years, a comparable ICE car with no hybrid that gets about 34 mpg would be a break even deal, assuming both cars did not require any extraordinary repairs during that time. The higher gas prices go, the better the hybrid does. Obviously, the lower gas prices go, the more favorable the 34 mpg car is. After all, $250 a year pays for a significant amount of gas.

              When there was a Federal tax credit, it swung the pendulum even further in favor of the Prius, which I am sure is one reason there are so many on the road.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Lynn View Post

                After doing the math, I figure if you drive about 10,000 miles a year, and attribute about $250 a year to the cost of that big HV batt, and ASSUMING (every thing changes a bit with different numbers) that gas will aveage about $3 a gallon during the next ten years, a comparable ICE car with no hybrid that gets about 34 mpg would be a break even deal, assuming both cars did not require any extraordinary repairs during that time. The higher gas prices go, the better the hybrid does. Obviously, the lower gas prices go, the more favorable the 34 mpg car is. After all, $250 a year pays for a significant amount of gas.

                When there was a Federal tax credit, it swung the pendulum even further in favor of the Prius, which I am sure is one reason there are so many on the road.
                Actually electric is pretty cheap right now and so is gas. However, if the cars go electric and internal combustion power diminishes the price of electric will go way up and the price of fossil fuels will go way down. That's pretty much a given.

                Comment


                • #38
                  I think you are exactly right. Of course, if the politicians try to over ride normal supply and demand (as they have with ethanol) then the numbers become skewed to the point that a meaninful analysis breaks down. Part of the cost is hidden in taxpayer burden.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Jeff_H View Post
                    I think a lot of what is behind this is local air pollution problems in dense cities in Europe and Asia. The US has fewer such areas. Even trucks are going (or wanting to go) this route:

                    https://cleantechnica.com/2017/03/30...-testing-year/

                    There is A LOT of R&D going on right now with all the automotive/trucks/construction makers on hybrid and full electric vehicle drivetrains that does not get in the general news but easy to find articles about in the trade news. Buses and local delivery trucks are a prime target but earth moving equipment too.

                    As for banning gas vehicles, I think what happens is they phase them out over time and they get outright banned from entering certain places (dense city areas). Eventually, demand for fuel drops (and cost goes up) and that forces most of the remaining "beaters" off the roads. Not sure what happens to vintage/collectables but I doubt they get forcibly scrapped although I could imagine there being various incentives to do so.
                    I travel to LA often. Over the past 7 years, I had seen an increase of electric in CA. The hotel I stay at has charging stations, so in the morning there were cars there charging while they ate breakfast, and in the evening the same cars, but have a drink or so. This year, infarct this past week, no cars were charging and the number of EVs I've seen has drastically dropped. One might be tax credits ran out, or the theory about good for use in dense areas is just not feasible for EV cars.

                    To me it looks like EV's are like steam locomotives that had to stop to fill water more than tend coal, just in this case, to charge up to get to the next charging station.

                    High dense areas are the last place you want an EV vehicle, yet makes sens for the environment, but are better suited for low dense areas for going to the grocery store.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by bensherb View Post
                      The biggest problem wityh electric cars is the ungodly cost of keeping them on the road when they get to be just 10 years old. After ten, or in my case 9 years it cost $3000 to put a new drive battery in my '03 prius, not to mention the $200 12 volt battery every year. whats worse is it get worse if you don't drive them every day. Heck my gas cars can sit for months, I hit the key and off I go, the prius will have a completely dead 12v battery requiring replacement after only weeks of non use. It's cheaper to drive my Tundra.
                      But people have very short memories. So it takes a few years to condition consumers (brainwash) into accepting the real high prices for everything. People can be conditioned to accept anything.
                      "Madness...is the exception in individuals, but the rule in groups" - Nietzsche.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by bensherb View Post
                        The biggest problem wityh electric cars is the ungodly cost of keeping them on the road when they get to be just 10 years old. After ten, or in my case 9 years it cost $3000 to put a new drive battery in my '03 prius, not to mention the $200 12 volt battery every year. whats worse is it get worse if you don't drive them every day. Heck my gas cars can sit for months, I hit the key and off I go, the prius will have a completely dead 12v battery requiring replacement after only weeks of non use. It's cheaper to drive my Tundra.
                        Wondering what your mpg was, and how many gallons of gas you didn't have to buy over those nine years, and what those savings were? What was the dollar value of a cleaner environment due to less fossil fuel combustion by the Prious?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          The recent Hurricanes in Houston and Fla... Millions without power..and evacuation ? First re ponders charging where ? An M1 Abrams on electric ? F22s F 35s..our military..and ALL militarizes will need oil for many decades.. Yes make electrics more feasible..but the grid needs BILLIONS/TRILLIONS in improvement and Smart grinds that can't be hacked or subject to an EMG attack.. Who will post the funds for all this ?
                          Oil/gas powered vehicles are quite independent of the "grid"..and like it or not here for many decades. There is a lot of improvements in ICE still ahead..

                          Hell I can't even get fiber cable for faster speeds just 10 miles from Tucson in an affluent area..and we will use the old power poles to deliver the needs for a couple billion or so EVs ?

                          Not in my lifetime certainly..or maybe my sons..
                          Waiting for an Ambulance or Fire truck to charge is not really comforting..

                          Yeah..wood power poles delivering for these needs ? 1900s grid for 2200 dreams,,

                          A 787 converted to EV ? really ? Trip to Hawaii from say LA stops where to charge ?

                          Unless there is QUANTUM change in development..it's a dream..

                          Make the ICE more and more efficient and clean..maybe Hydrogen..but solely EV..nope..

                          Scotty needs to deliver "full power" captain..but we don't have dilithium crystals..Fusion ?

                          And Scotty done died..
                          Last edited by parts; 09-15-2017, 12:11 AM.
                          AKA Ken
                          What I do when I am not here..
                          http://www.soundclick.com/bands/defa...&content=music

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Lynn View Post
                            Quote: "That '03 Prius of mine has almost 300,000 miles on it, but it has demanded a new 12 volt battery at least every two years since new..." Yes, a bit redundant to state it is a quote and then put it in quotes, just wanting to make certain.

                            I am really surprised that your HV battery is still going at 14 years old.

                            I drive it just like I would any other econobox. The good thing is that even with the small 1.5 engine, the electric motor helps get it going, so it isn't horrible off the line like some of the econoboxes.

                            A After all, $250 a year pays for a significant amount of gas.
                            I had to replace the HV battery after 9 years, a bit over 200,000 miles.

                            I also drive it like any other car. I've heard it said "the Prius has slowest acceleration of all the cars on the road" , that's only because of those drivers you mentioned. If I'm not stuck behind one of them (it doesn't mater what car they drive) I find when accelerating from a stoplight normally, by time I reach the speed limit I'm usually several hundred feet ahead of the guy who was next to or behind me at the light. I'd have to "romp on it" in my gas cars to match that.

                            $250 in gas... that's about 5 to 6 weeks for me, probably a bit more if I could always use the Prius, but a lot of the time I can't, no cargo capacity.

                            Originally posted by Studejohnn View Post
                            Wondering what your mpg was, and how many gallons of gas you didn't have to buy over those nine years, and what those savings were? What was the dollar value of a cleaner environment due to less fossil fuel combustion by the Prious?
                            The Prius gets about twice the gas milage the Tundra gets, but the Tundra is three years older and only on its second 12Volt battery. So which is better, a little extra CO2 for the plants to breath or another 1000 pounds of heavy metals and the emissions emitted while creating all those batteries. Remember the Prius has a gas engine too.
                            sigpic

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              In reality, this conversation is a good study in human behavior, and like our various personalities, so is the reaction to life as it unfolds. Every technological development, has had its moments of infancy, curiosity, development, and refinement. This is no different. While I see it as an intriguing concept, I continue to try and keep an open mind regarding its possibilities. I enjoy the jokes, skepticism, and nay sayers too. For I believe it is the skeptics that motivate, the truly knowledgeable, to double down on their efforts.

                              While I find myself sometimes skeptical, other times encouraged, regarding the technology...my plan is to embrace what works economically, and practically. The stuff being promoted as socio-pollitically correct...I will continue to resist. From my earliest memories, it has been my nature to kick back against being herded in any direction without a good explanation. I think it is what caused me to become a Studebaker collector. Otherwise, I would have a "belly button" common assembly of cars (if any) so I could get lost in the crowd.
                              John Clary
                              Greer, SC

                              SDC member since 1975

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                This article was published some time ago.


                                CNW Marketing Research’s second annual “Dust to Dust: The Energy Cost of New Vehicles from Concept to Disposal” report concludes that the overall environmental impact of the Prius is significantly higher than many SUVs and other nonhybrid cars because the automobile's fuel economy is not the largest factor in its impact.

                                The study added up all energy needed to design, build, ship, drive and dispose of a vehicle throughout its lifetime. The data is then translated to a dollar figure. According to findings, the Priuscosts $2.19 per mile over its expected life span of 100,000 miles. There are 156 cars with lower per mile cost than the Prius, including pickup trucks and SUVs such as the Toyota Tacoma ($.97), Jeep Liberty ($1.11), Ford Explorer ($1.87), Dodge Durango ($1.69) and Jeep Wrangler ($.65).

                                The top factor in determining a car's environmental cost-per-mile is its recyclability. Because hybrids are newer technology, their parts are less reusable in other makes and models. For example, eachPrius battery is made of 32 pounds of nickel. The environmental cost of mining the nickel and the cost of recycling the nickel batteries are significant because there is not a massive industry, as there is for regular batteries.
                                Bill

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X