Exhaust: Front exhaust hangers

[alanottawa]

I have 1957 President (57H) with dual exhaust. The left exhaust manifold broke at the flange to the exhaust pipe. I will get a new manifold, but I wonder if the problem was caused by lack of support of the exhaust pipes and mufflers. The Chassis Parts Catalog shows a pair of brackets #401-4 in Plate 04-5, near where the front (down) pipe joins the rear (long horizontal) pipe. They are called “support”, part numbers 536442 and 536595. My car doesn’t have them, but the engine was previously switched and the pipes are fairly new. My system hangs loose from the manifolds to beyond the mufflers. I imagine the swaying exhaust system stresses the flange, but on the other hand if the exhaust system is rigid and the motor leans or vibrates, that stresses the flange. I cannot find such brackets in any supplier's catalog. Are they needed, and where might they be obtained?

[BobPalma]

Alan, it is not a big deal if you can't find the correct brackets. They rarely rust away, so they would be on any V8 parts car.

But more importantly, they aren't all that "special." They are simply rigid (no rubber) brackets from that front head pipe/exhaust pipe connection to a couple bottom bolts on the bell housing, so you can easily fabricate something satisfactory, unless you are going for a concours restoration and authenticity is important to you. Otherwise, anyone with an assortment of scrap iron pieces and experience with an Erector set as a youngster, can make something satisfactory, even if it doesn't look exactly like the factory part. Function is more important, here, than form.

You are correct; they are important and should be in place to avoid the manifold stress that undoubtedly gave you the problem. BP

[Captain Billy]

Alan Check your private messages

[az64stude]

I don't remember any hangers in front of the mufflers just the four behind. Six cylinders had a bracket at the bell housing for single exhaust but the dual exhaust V8's from what I see and remember only had the Four brackets 2 in front of the differential (rear side of mufflers) and 2 at the back of the gas tank (exhaust valence area).
Good Luck

[BobPalma]

I don't remember any hangers in front of the mufflers just the four behind. Six cylinders had a bracket at the bell housing for single exhaust but the dual exhaust V8's from what I see and remember only had the Four brackets 2 in front of the differential (rear side of mufflers) and 2 at the back of the gas tank (exhaust valence area).

Eric, you're right...beginning with 1959 model V8s. The brackets were used on 1958 and prior models, but not 1959 V8s through to the end of production. Sixes used them after 1958, however.

(In my never-so-humble opinion, they should have continued using them after 1958. They eased the strain on the exhaust manifold(s). I made one for my single-exhaust 1964 Daytona convertible when I put a new exhaust system on it last year.) BP

[az64stude]

The 1951 - 1954 commander eights with the Y-pipe at the bell housing had a bracket but I am surprised that the dual exhaust on the 57 President had brackets at the bell housing I wonder did the 1956 hawks with dual exhaust have those brackets? Also I don't think the 1960 larks with Y pipes used the earlier bell housing brackets.
Coming back to the breakage point on the exhaust manifold, I wonder if when the dual exhaust pipes were installed did they raise the pipes and mufflers a few degrees to take some of the load off the front exhaust manifolds? I know that sometimes things get bolted in position without attention to the small details. that additional load could also attribute to the failed exhaust manifold. If this was a common problem I would look at the bracket but I am thinking you may have more than one component that may have caused this to fail. Did you install new studs in exhaust ports? Did the crack look old or fresh it may have occurred during original installation of pipes. Are the mufflers an OEM type or something larger heavier? I am eager to learn what you find out. Had it just been a bracket that's fine (easy fix) but I am thinking you have more than that going on under that President.Especially since you are saying only one side has failed they both should be failing if they are the same configuration.
GOOD LUCK

[BobPalma]

I wonder did the 1956 hawks with dual exhaust have those brackets?

The only dual-exhaust model in 1956 that did not have the brackets was the Golden Hawk.

Also I don't think the 1960 larks with Y pipes used the earlier bell housing brackets.

That's correct; as I said, 1959 and newer V8 models, with or without dual exhaust, did not use the brackets. BP

[acolds]

A possible reason for the lack of front support clamp may be because of this Studebaker Service Bulletin 328

[SN-60]

A possible reason for the lack of front support clamp may be because of this Studebaker Service Bulletin 328

I believe that you 'nailed' it!.....Good detective work!

[alanottawa]

Thanks for replies

Thanks all for the replies. I will remount the engine and then assess whether home-made brackets seem desirable. My motor mounts on one side were very bad, which could have affected stress on the manifold. My car lacked a “Valve assembly, heater”, part # 536171 (image 109-27, p.10 of the Parts Manual”). That would be on the right manifold, not the one that cracked, but if the exhaust pipes were standard length to allow for that valve, there could have been stress or awkward fit. I will see how the pipes feel going back together, with three possibilities: 1. Current pipe may not allow space for valve; 2. Valve would improve fit of pipe; 3. Pipe may fit either way, in which case I would be glad to continue to omit the valve, as I doubt it is important for the sort of use this car gets.

[Bill A]

As an add although late in the conversation there is such a thing as flexible exhaust tubing. Mercedes used it years ago in the diesels to help eliminate the unreal vibration in a diesel from being felt in the car. They are usually stainless and quite strong.

[karterfred88]

I can not comment on why the manifold broke in your case. I did however find on my car, that the exhaust system was not a "factory" or "NOS designed" premade exhaust but had been installed by a "muffler shop" and bent in house. Unfortunately, it was installed with the transmission mount totally destroyed and the steel supports resting in the cross member without any rubber isolators left. The entire system was welded together with the engine in that "kinked" condition, and since the engine mounts broke at sometime later, the entire weight of the engine was being supported by the exhaust! I doubt the supports are necessary in your case. I would suggest, however, if you are buying premade pipes, designed for the heat riser to be in the system, that you either install one, or use spacer so that the pipe will fall the amount it should and clear everything. Good luck-at least the manifold is still available !!

[Bill A]

If you get under a car on a drive on house and torque it in gear you can see the motion, it applies a bunch of twist into the drive train so the exhaust needs to be free enough to move and the exhaust close to the engine is commonly bracketed to the engine/ trans so it follows the motion without excess twist on the cast manifolds. If you were under a Mercedes on a drive on and were to strike or push the exhaust upward it would move all around following the engine so the entire system is floating in rubber mounts. I have never understood why domestic cars don't break more exhaust systems but they don't seem to. Of course the MB engine mounts were hydraulically filled and allowed the whole thing to move freely.

[1954khardtop]

Interesting! Thanks acolds for posting the bulletin. My car has a vibration like that. I've been messing with the center drive shaft support position trying to eliminate it. I think I will put it back to the position specified in the manual, remove the front exhaust brackets, and test again for vibration.

[mbstude]

Thanks all for the replies. I will remount the engine and then assess whether home-made brackets seem desirable. My motor mounts on one side were very bad, which could have affected stress on the manifold. My car lacked a “Valve assembly, heater”, part # 536171 (image 109-27, p.10 of the Parts Manual”). That would be on the right manifold, not the one that cracked, but if the exhaust pipes were standard length to allow for that valve, there could have been stress or awkward fit. I will see how the pipes feel going back together, with three possibilities: 1. Current pipe may not allow space for valve; 2. Valve would improve fit of pipe; 3. Pipe may fit either way, in which case I would be glad to continue to omit the valve, as I doubt it is important for the sort of use this car gets.

I would think that the bad engine mounts would be a big part of the problem. That would allow the engine to move around more than it should and put extra stress on the exhaust pipes.

By the way, a lot of the vendors sell a spacer to take the place of the heat riser valve if you want to keep the geometry the same. The valve isn't needed unless you drive the car in freezing temps anyway.