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StudeMichael
07-30-2016, 09:10 PM
Would you yank the Chevy engine?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1965-Excalibur-SSK-/112072396044?&_trksid=p2056016.l4276

t walgamuth
07-30-2016, 09:28 PM
Cool! I dig the Mercedes connection.

SN-60
07-30-2016, 10:14 PM
Would you yank the Chevy engine?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1965-Excalibur-SSK-/112072396044?&_trksid=p2056016.l4276

I hear you,...but no I wouldn't.

r1lark
07-31-2016, 05:37 AM
Really neat car with lots of provenance. (Noticed that the passenger side traction bar is missing.)

The comparison with the Cobra (weight versus horsepower) was very interesting, this thing must have seemed like a rocket ship in 1965. :)

paul shuffleburg
07-31-2016, 07:10 AM
The 327 should be the original engine in a early Excalibur.

t walgamuth
07-31-2016, 07:14 AM
I would not deviate from the factory spec unless it was a minor deviation which improved drivablity or safety....such as a dual master cylinder.

8E45E
07-31-2016, 09:28 AM
I would leave it as is.

Craig

Devan
07-31-2016, 12:32 PM
Was the prototype car #1? I think the prototype was the only car to feature a Studebaker 289 supercharged engine. Perhaps this is why the early 327 supercharged. Does this vehicle still exist?

PackardV8
07-31-2016, 12:53 PM
Way cool. Will be interesting to see what it brings.

jack vines

paul shuffleburg
07-31-2016, 01:27 PM
The Studebaker SS had the 289.

8E45E
07-31-2016, 06:24 PM
Was the prototype car #1? I think the prototype was the only car to feature a Studebaker 289 supercharged engine. Perhaps this is why the early 327 supercharged. Does this vehicle still exist?

It was a Studebaker 'SS' before Brooks Stevens set up his own stand at the 1964 Auto Show. More info here: http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?17549-Studebaker-SS&highlight=excalibur

Craig

SN-60
07-31-2016, 07:02 PM
Very cool car, especially 50+ years after the fact, however, I've always found it hard to believe that Brooks Stevens really thought that he might have a 'snowballs chance in hell' Studebaker management would consider buying into something as radical as that:eek:......For starters, their 'normal' auto production was hanging by a thread at that critical time!:(

sgriggs
07-31-2016, 09:40 PM
Doesn't this car use a Stude Lark Convertible chassis like the Avanti?

studegary
07-31-2016, 09:48 PM
Doesn't this car use a Stude Lark Convertible chassis like the Avanti?

Yes, all of the first series (1964-1969) models used the Studebaker frame.

StudeMichael
08-01-2016, 10:24 PM
Very cool car, especially 50+ years after the fact, however, I've always found it hard to believe that Brooks Stevens really thought that he might have a 'snowballs chance in hell' Studebaker management would consider buying into something as radical as that:eek:......For starters, their 'normal' auto production was hanging by a thread at that critical time!:(

The Excaibur was Sherwood Egbert's idea, Brooks was just doing what he was hired to do.

GrumpyOne
08-01-2016, 10:48 PM
The Excaibur was Sherwood Egbert's idea, Brooks was just doing what he was hired to do.

I doubt that to be the case as I attended a Milestone National Convention back in the early 1970's where Brooks Stevens, Bob Andrews and Bob Bourke were speakers. There on stage were three of the greatest designers in Studebaker's history. You could hear a pin drop anywhere in that room. It was by far the most impressive event that I ever attended regarding Studebaker.

As Stevens told it, he requested a R2 chassis be sent to his Studio for some "experimental" work. Studebaker complied and the resulting Excalibur was one of the highlights of the NY Auto Show. During the show, Stevens son took orders, (without permission), for several cars and thus the foundation was laid for the ensuing Excalibur production facility in Wisconsin. The rest is well documented history.

As an aside, I believe that Studebaker eventually learned about the car and tried to cancel its appearance in NY. By the time of the NY show, the die had be cast by Studebaker management to end production in this country and Egbert was already gone due to his terminal cancer.

Sdude
08-01-2016, 11:36 PM
I've always found it hard to believe that Brooks Stevens really thought that he might have a 'snowballs chance in hell' Studebaker management would consider buying into something as radical as that:eek:

I remember thinking the same thing when Plymouth made the Prowler concept. I couldn't believe it when they actually produced it. Brooks Stevens was just way ahead of his time.

Andy R.
08-02-2016, 12:58 AM
I would not yank the Chevy engine unless it broke badly.
That Paxton+327 combination was also used in at least one Avanti II:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlzrENG2Nvc

I'd be interested to hear how much handling is improved by the "front-mid" engine placement of that beautiful Excalibur. Only mods I'd make is maybe store the luggage rack and top frame until the first road trip.

t walgamuth
08-02-2016, 05:25 AM
It appears to be designed to have about 5050 weight distribution. It would not surprise me if it had a little rear weight bias....somewhere up to 55% on the rear...?

SN-60
08-02-2016, 06:46 AM
The Excaibur was Sherwood Egbert's idea, Brooks was just doing what he was hired to do.

...............and 'the cow jumped over the moon'....:woot:

Skip Lackie
08-02-2016, 08:41 AM
I doubt that to be the case as I attended a Milestone National Convention back in the early 1970's where Brooks Stevens, Bob Andrews and Bob Bourke were speakers. There on stage were three of the greatest designers in Studebaker's history. You could hear a pin drop anywhere in that room. It was by far the most impressive event that I ever attended regarding Studebaker.



Yes -- September 1974. I attended as well. It was the first Milestone Car Society national meet, held in conjunction with the first Carlisle old car flea market, then called "Postwar 74". That name derived from the fact that interest in post-War cars was growing, but the AACA, which had/has a 25-year rule, would not allow newer cars or parts on the field at their Hershey meet.

studegary
08-02-2016, 12:54 PM
Yes -- September 1974. I attended as well. It was the first Milestone Car Society national meet, held in conjunction with the first Carlisle old car flea market, then called "Postwar 74". That name derived from the fact that interest in post-War cars was growing, but the AACA, which had/has a 25-year rule, would not allow newer cars or parts on the field at their Hersey meet.

I was also there with my 1953 Commander Starliner, one of the initial cars to receive Milestone status. I worked with Dick L., Jerry B. and others on the initial stages/formation of the Milestone Car Society. I was a member for a number of years and attended their meets and then drifted off after awhile. It seems like SDC is the only car club, of many, that I have stuck with.

SScopelli
08-02-2016, 03:19 PM
But would you put the traction/radius bars back on?

Bracket is there, but rods are missing..

http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/sp4AAOSwZVlXl~96/s-l1600.jpg

GrumpyOne
08-02-2016, 04:58 PM
Yes -- September 1974. I attended as well. It was the first Milestone Car Society national meet, held in conjunction with the first Carlisle old car flea market, then called "Postwar 74". That name derived from the fact that interest in post-War cars was growing, but the AACA, which had/has a 25-year rule, would not allow newer cars or parts on the field at their Hersey meet.


Indeed, I was a member of MCS which later began to admit nearly everything five years or older when in fact the original intent was to be the post war equivalent of the CCCA. It was Studebaker heavy which should not come as a surprise given that company's innovation and design. I wonder if MCS still exists???

While there, I set up a group shot of Sevens, Andrews and Bourke in front of a GT Hawk of which a copy appeared in a subsequent issue of the Milestone Car as I believe that was the club's magazine banner. It was a cold damp raw that day...

Jett289
08-02-2016, 05:58 PM
That is one cool car and I would leave it the way it was built ... Wish I had lots of money on hand cause I would love to have that car ..

Skip Lackie
08-02-2016, 06:39 PM
Indeed, I was a member of MCS which later began to admit nearly everything five years or older when in fact the original intent was to be the post war equivalent of the CCCA. It was Studebaker heavy which should not come as a surprise given that company's innovation and design. I wonder if MCS still exists???

While there, I set up a group shot of Sevens, Andrews and Bourke in front of a GT Hawk of which a copy appeared in a subsequent issue of the Milestone Car as I believe that was the club's magazine banner. It was a cold damp raw that day...

Agree that the initial Certified Milestone list was Stude-heavy. Several of the founders of the club (of those I knew anyway) were into orphans makes, so it's not surprising that Stude, Packard, Kaiser, etc were disproportionately represented compared to the Big Three. I knew Dick Langworth fairly well at the time. He had a very nice 62 GT Hawk but often remarked that he could hear it rusting even on the driest, sunniest fall days. That said, they had a very distinguished and knowledgeable panel of advisors (Karl Ludvigson (sp?) and Dick Teague come to mind), and they selected a panel of truly obscure but interesting foreign models (eg, Jowett Jupiter, Lea-Francis) for inclusion as well.

I did something similar after I learned who the speakers were gonna be. I bought some Stude lit at that first Carlisle meet and got them to autograph it/them over the pictures of the cars they designed. I've always worried that if I got hit by a bread truck, my wife would not notice the signatures and just throw it out with the trash.

I think the MCS still exists as a car club in Indianapolis, which is where their HQ was when I was still a member.
http://www.milestonecarsociety.com/

Xcalibur
08-02-2016, 09:57 PM
Who in their right mind would re-engine it. Though garden variety Vette engines (before addition of the Paxton, in this case--btw, 11 supercharged Series I's were built, at least with 4-speeds) all have unique serial numbers that are on record.

One point of clarification, according to my personal correspondence with Alice Preston, who worked for Brooks Stevens BEFORE there was Excalibur and who owns the remains of the company, production started with serial number 1000 NOT 1001 as many "assume" or "know." Hence, this is car number 3.

Btw, I have weighed mine of late, and the weight distribution is: 48% front, 52% rear.

Motorcar Gallery in Florida bought this car from the Brundage employee (name escapes me, sorry) who ended up with it when the "boss" died. M.G. squirreled it away, perhaps waiting for potential pricing increases, and indeed had the car when I was negotiating with them on another silver (sn: 1009) and never mentioned it. M.G. originally priced it for $75K and almost immediately upped that to $80K... then, that was the last I saw of it until this ad.

StudeMichael
08-02-2016, 10:04 PM
I am not saying Brooks did not design it. I am saying that the idea of a retro version of the 1930's SSK was in fact Egbert's idea.

Xcalibur
08-02-2016, 10:19 PM
"I am saying that the idea of a retro version of the 1930's SSK was in fact Egbert's idea." I don't think so from what Stevens and his sons have said. I'll try to find a relevant quote or two if I have time. Or, ask Alice Preston.

One thing that B.S. did say is that he wanted a "two-way" car that resembled his period Merc that he could actually drive to events AND make it home in, hehehe. I never heard this told in terms of anyone else giving him this idea.

t walgamuth
08-03-2016, 04:34 AM
Who in their right mind would re-engine it. Though garden variety Vette engines (before addition of the Paxton, in this case--btw, 11 supercharged Series I's were built, at least with 4-speeds) all have unique serial numbers that are on record.

One point of clarification, according to my personal correspondence with Alice Preston, who worked for Brooks Stevens BEFORE there was Excalibur and who owns the remains of the company, production started with serial number 1000 NOT 1001 as many "assume" or "know." Hence, this is car number 3.

Btw, I have weighed mine of late, and the weight distribution is: 48% front, 52% rear.

Motorcar Gallery in Florida bought this car from the Brundage employee (name escapes me, sorry) who ended up with it when the "boss" died. M.G. squirreled it away, perhaps waiting for potential pricing increases, and indeed had the car when I was negotiating with them on another silver (sn: 1009) and never mentioned it. M.G. originally priced it for $75K and almost immediately upped that to $80K... then, that was the last I saw of it until this ad.

Is that weight distribution with or without the driver?

t walgamuth
08-03-2016, 04:35 AM
"I am saying that the idea of a retro version of the 1930's SSK was in fact Egbert's idea." I don't think so from what Stevens and his sons have said. I'll try to find a relevant quote or two if I have time. Or, ask Alice Preston.

One thing that B.S. did say is that he wanted a "two-way" car that resembled his period Merc that he could actually drive to events AND make it home in, hehehe. I never heard this told in terms of anyone else giving him this idea.

Success has many fathers, failure is an orphan.;)

studegary
08-03-2016, 01:09 PM
Indeed, I was a member of MCS which later began to admit nearly everything five years or older when in fact the original intent was to be the post war equivalent of the CCCA. It was Studebaker heavy which should not come as a surprise given that company's innovation and design. I wonder if MCS still exists???

..

As Skip stated, the MCS was Studebaker heavy at the beginning due to those involved in the origination of the Club. The three that I previously mentioned, Dick L., Jerry B. and myself, all owned one or more Studebakers at the time.
To gain Milestone staus was very strict at the beginning. Later, the entries were increased, I think to gather more membership. That is part of why I drifted away from that Club.

GrumpyOne
08-03-2016, 08:25 PM
As Skip stated, the MCS was Studebaker heavy at the beginning due to those involved in the origination of the Club. The three that I previously mentioned, Dick L., Jerry B. and myself, all owned one or more Studebakers at the time.
To gain Milestone staus was very strict at the beginning. Later, the entries were increased, I think to gather more membership. That is part of why I drifted away from that Club.

That's exactly why I left as well. When they diluted the makeup of the club, they lost me...

Xcalibur
08-03-2016, 09:24 PM
t walgamuth. The weight is without the driver, as is typical. However, the amount of gas may vary. For standards' sake one would hope to weigh with tanks full, but that doesn't always happen.

StudeMichael
08-03-2016, 11:26 PM
"I am saying that the idea of a retro version of the 1930's SSK was in fact Egbert's idea." I don't think so from what Stevens and his sons have said. I'll try to find a relevant quote or two if I have time. Or, ask Alice Preston.

One thing that B.S. did say is that he wanted a "two-way" car that resembled his period Merc that he could actually drive to events AND make it home in, hehehe. I never heard this told in terms of anyone else giving him this idea.

Whatever comes from the Stevens camp will be biased. The designer always wants to take all the credit. Loewy would have done the same with the Avanti if he could have gotten away with it but it was well documented that it was Egbert's idea.

64Avanti
08-04-2016, 03:01 AM
I doubt that to be the case as I attended a Milestone National Convention back in the early 1970's where Brooks Stevens, Bob Andrews and Bob Bourke were speakers. There on stage were three of the greatest designers in Studebaker's history. You could hear a pin drop anywhere in that room. It was by far the most impressive event that I ever attended regarding Studebaker.

As Stevens told it, he requested a R2 chassis be sent to his Studio for some "experimental" work. Studebaker complied and the resulting Excalibur was one of the highlights of the NY Auto Show. During the show, Stevens son took orders, (without permission), for several cars and thus the foundation was laid for the ensuing Excalibur production facility in Wisconsin. The rest is well documented history.

As an aside, I believe that Studebaker eventually learned about the car and tried to cancel its appearance in NY. By the time of the NY show, the die had be cast by Studebaker management to end production in this country and Egbert was already gone due to his terminal cancer.

When the first car was a Road & Track test car it had Studebaker script on it!

t walgamuth
08-04-2016, 07:02 AM
t walgamuth. The weight is without the driver, as is typical. However, the amount of gas may vary. For standards' sake one would hope to weigh with tanks full, but that doesn't always happen.

Sounds like with the driver you'd be about 45/55 which was about what the ferraris of the fifties were built with.

Xcalibur
08-04-2016, 01:38 PM
64 Avanti: the August 1964 Road & Track test car (on the table before me) was the R-2 powered New York Auto Show car, i.e., the original and only Stude-engined of the bunch. Hence their published curb weight is 2510# while in the later February 1966 Car & Driver (also, before me) with the 300hp/327ci was 2350.

t walgarmuth; if unable to weigh a real car with and without driver one can figure "loaded" proportions noting that the center of the driver's posterior would be 24" or 22% forward of the rear-wheel center-line. Thus, 78% of the driver's weight would be contributed to the rear weight.

Move a cast-iron engine back 29" from stock, no matter which engine we are talking about, is going to make a tremendous difference in front/rear weight distribution!

But, I'm sorry... we move afar from the thread topic.

t walgamuth
08-04-2016, 01:52 PM
64 Avanti: the August 1964 Road & Track test car (on the table before me) was the R-2 powered New York Auto Show car, i.e., the original and only Stude-engined of the bunch. Hence their published curb weight is 2510# while in the later February 1966 Car & Driver (also, before me) with the 300hp/327ci was 2350.

t walgarmuth; if unable to weigh a real car with and without driver one can figure "loaded" proportions noting that the center of the driver's posterior would be 24" or 22% forward of the rear-wheel center-line. Thus, 78% of the driver's weight would be contributed to the rear weight.

Move a cast-iron engine back 29" from stock, no matter which engine we are talking about, is going to make a tremendous difference in front/rear weight distribution!

But, I'm sorry... we move afar from the thread topic.

Exactly.;)

GrumpyOne
08-04-2016, 06:08 PM
When the first car was a Road & Track test car it had Studebaker script on it!


That doesn't surprise me in the least as Stevens was "employed" by Studebaker and anything he came up with after receiving the chassis "to play around with" would be Studebaker's as well. Stevens was a very ethical upstanding individual...

studegary
08-05-2016, 01:48 PM
That doesn't surprise me in the least as Stevens was "employed" by Studebaker and anything he came up with after receiving the chassis "to play around with" would be Studebaker's as well. Stevens was a very ethical upstanding individual...

Up until he "liberated" (his word) the Studebaker owned prototypes that were later sold to the SNM.

Jett289
08-05-2016, 11:16 PM
So the first car is owned by SNM .. That is great to hear .. Maybe I knew this but have forgot.. lol .. Getting old ..

8E45E
08-06-2016, 07:21 AM
So the first car is owned by SNM .. That is great to hear .. Maybe I knew this but have forgot.. lol .. Getting old ..

Gary is referring to the three styling concepts which are the Skyview wagon, Lark sedan, and the Sceptre; not the #1 Excalibur.

Craig

SN-60
08-06-2016, 12:33 PM
Whatever comes from the Stevens camp will be biased. The designer always wants to take all the credit. Loewy would have done the same with the Avanti if he could have gotten away with it but it was well documented that it was Egbert's idea.


You're now saying Loewy would have claimed it was HIS IDEA to build the Avanti for Studebaker if he could have gotten away with it??? :rolleyes:

Xcalibur
08-07-2016, 12:40 PM
The Steven family STILL owns the NY Auto Show car, i.e., the Road & Track road test X.

S2Deluxe
08-07-2016, 04:29 PM
Well it looks like the auction ended and the car wasn't sold. It doesn't seem, to me, like the asking price was that far out of line but it's way more than I'd be able to cough up right now?

Mark

Xcalibur
08-09-2016, 11:12 AM
Mark, the interesting thing to me, having followed the car's offering by Motorcar Gallery in Florida for quite a while, is that it was being offered on ebay for less than by M.G. So, I'm thinking whomever is currently selling it must have gotten a decent deal on it, to make it worthwhile transporting completely across the country, if nothing else. However, nothing I have ever seen suggests it is ever going to appreciate significantly beyond where it is now--at least not in my lifetime. This is NOT a quick turn-around vehicle and truly appeals to a tiny niche market. I have watched Series I's for decades and it is seldom otherwise in the States. All, imho, of course.

StudeMichael
08-09-2016, 06:43 PM
Do you know where there are any basket case projects are, Xcalibur?

StudeMichael
08-09-2016, 07:27 PM
This Series 1 Roadster is really nice for less money. http://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/dealer/excalibur/ssk/1857564.html#PhotoSwipe1470788859892

Xcalibur
08-09-2016, 09:04 PM
Someone asked me much the same question here some time ago, StudeMichael. Unfortunately, there is no consistent "source" of Series I's in any given condition; one simply must monitor the usual sources. The Hemmings car you linked to appears quite nice but though it is a Series I, it is NOT an early doorless, cycle-fendered car. As such, it is an "SS" and not an "SSK" The latter, as noted in the ad, even have separate serial numbers with the SS's commencing with a "3" and the SSK with a "1."

As for pricing/value, the "artificial" (imho) $5K difference between the two cars noted is simply a pipe-dream of the individual offering the Hemmings car. The highest I've seen an SS go for in the States of late was $50K, it was what appeared to be a nice, but obviously modified example (e.g., painted wire-wheels--always a "cheapo" way to deal with rust and pits, again imho). The Brundage car is difficult to value but would certainly be worth MUCH more than even the best, original SS because of its clear, documented heritage/provenance. Brundage was one of the visitors to the NY Auto Show who "demanded" one be made for him. Such examples seldom change hands openly. For example, I spoke with the historian of the Gilmore Museum who had Tony Curtis early SSK (sn: 1006 as I recall) since nearly new and who not that long ago sold it to a British buyer, but the price was never disclosed to me. Anyway, the Hemmings car is a quite early SS judging by the serial number (3007). SS's and phaeton's were announced in a factory pub. dated "for distribution" on April 9, 1966. Of the 90 cars built as 1966's, 29 were doorless SSK's, 3 were phaetons, and the remainder SS's of one stripe or another. The records are not clear since both SSK's and an unknown number of what would otherwise be considered SS's were made with cycle-fenders and the factory records did not designate with or without doors.

Again, probably more info than necessary. I'll be off to B'ville tomorrow so further questions might better be directed to me via pm so that I can respond in kind when I return in a couple weeks.