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View Full Version : Liability Only Collector Car Insurance? No Minimum Value Restriction?



tomhoo
07-12-2016, 11:43 PM
I'm trying to find Collector Car Insurance that has these features:



No Minimum Value Limit (usually $3000, $3500, or $5000)
Liability coverage only
Comp coverage but NO Collision
Usage restriction based on miles driven per year (not driven to work obviously)
Car kept in less than a garage such as a car port enclosed on 2 or 3 sides


I don't expect to find a company that has all these features, but then I've found collector car insurance rates that are higher than my daily driver rates.

I really don't want to have any coll/comp since it is no longer possible to "buy your car back" from the insurance company if it's totaled. Mine is a 63 R2 Package Super Lark w/R3 engine and assuming it doesn't fall into a pit of molten volcano lava, I'll want the parts back.

fpstude
07-13-2016, 12:20 AM
Would you please clarify it is no longer possible to "buy your car back" from the insurance company if it's totaled. I have not heard about this.

tomhoo
07-13-2016, 01:27 AM
I have a friend who is in the auto body business and he deals with insurance companies daily.

He said they quit allowing owners to buy back because they would try to put car back on road without making it safe - evidently people were getting injured because of this. There were other factors such as R and Salvage Title issues too.

He said what they do now is nothing like what they did in the 70's.

Hallabutt
07-13-2016, 02:24 AM
Tom,

When did this no buy back rule supposedly go into effect? If anything it must be an arbitrary company policy. Years ago it was rumored that insurance companies were going to stop allowing buy backs because of the possibility of fraud, but I never saw it come to pass. The state of Washington does not require a regular car inspection, but once a car is considered a total by an insurance company getting it relicensed requires a state inspection. Two of the cars that I use as daily drivers have salvage titles. It really doesn't take much of an accident anymore to declare an older car a total. If what you say is something new we old car guys need to know about it. Have you checked with your insurance company?

48skyliner
07-13-2016, 03:46 AM
The idea that someone would put a car back on the road without safely repairing it is a bogus argument. If the car is a total it is sold as salvage, and the guy who buys it can just as easily put it back on the road with poor repair work. It is my experience that the back yard body men who do one or two cars a year do a better job than some of the body shops, because they are not under any pressure to get it done quickly, and can take the time to do it right.

Here in Washington state, the big used car dealers tried very hard to push through legislation that would say once a car is declared a total, it could never be repaired and relicensed. This is to protect the public from dishonest little guys like me. Of course we all know the used car dealers are honest and would never sell anyone a car that was not right.

Several years ago, I was working on a car with my friend Bob about 10:00 one night when he got a phone call from a lady he had sold a car to a few week earlier. It was a Chevette he had repaired from a total, and sold for well under $1000. She said the starter died and she was quoted a very high price by some local mechanic, and could Bob recommend someone more reasonable. He said he would look into it. I held the flashlight while he removed the starter from a wrecked Chevette behind the shop, we drove 20 miles into Seattle, and he crawled under the car and replaced the starter. After testing it, he handed her the keys and said "Please don't call me again". It was about midnight as we drove back and passed a long row of used car lots, and Bob asked me "How many of these guys would be lying on their back replacing this lady's starter in the middle of the night, and not charging her for it? I am the guy they are trying to protect the public from with this proposed legislation."

JoeHall
07-13-2016, 06:23 AM
Such a buy back rule may vary from state to state, or among insurance companies. I bought mine back about 12 years ago, but I realize 12 years can make a world of difference.

As for your OP, let your fingers do the walking on-line, in shopping for what you seek. Odds are, you can find whatever insurance coverage you are looking for. Best to read the terms and conditions yourself, before payment. Also, don't forget to read the fine print ;)

Avantidon
07-13-2016, 06:39 AM
If an insurance company declares your car a "total" loss after an accident. By law in most states, if not all the yare required to offer to return your car to you for its "salvage value" which will then be deducted from the the settlement amount that has been agreed upon. At that point they will also declare the car salvage and those states that issue titles will sned you a new title for your car known as a "Salvage Title." You can then repair the car/have it reoaired but prior to putting it on the road it must be inspected by the state police. Now the kicker is you can keep the car do what you want with it but are restricted in selling it and this makes the whole issue a nightmare. I strongly suggest you contact your state's insurance department concerning this issue as they can clarify what I have said for you based on your state. Personally I would not want to deal with a "Salvage Title" issue on any car. It can be a nightmare. With that said, it is your car and an insurance company must offer it back to you by law in most states. This is 40 years of experience talking here all with a major insurer.

wolfie
07-13-2016, 08:46 AM
I watch a lot of salvage auctions online and have noticed a trend in the last few years toward more heavily damaged vehicles being marked "not rebuildable" in some states. From the little I took time to read I made the assumption that those cars could be used for parts but could not be re-titled. I confess that I did not read the fine details as the vehicles involved all have more damage than I am willing to tackle anyway. I also only see this on vehicles from a few states. Steve

tomhoo
07-13-2016, 10:29 AM
My body shop friend said the only way you can get the car back in PA is to find someone to bid on it when it is auctioned off by the ins company.

I'm going to call my ins company and see what they say about this.

sweetolbob
07-13-2016, 10:55 AM
I'm going to call my ins company and see what they say about this.

Not a bad idea but I'd probably call the state folks that handle titles and licenses in your corner of the world also.

tomhoo
07-13-2016, 11:19 AM
I called my ins rep and that policy varies by ins company.

Erie and American Modern allow you to buy back.

Evidently, my friend was involved with some ins companies that did not allow this.

Nevertheless, it would be a good idea to see where you stand with your ins co. If they do not allow it, it might be grounds for changing you ins company.

StudeRich
07-13-2016, 11:48 AM
When you purchase Liability only Insurance as you asked for, your Car is not involved, not insured so buy back is not an option.

I can't imagine A collector Car Insurer even insuring a Driver of a Collector Car only, there is no point in having Collector Car Insurance to do that since the Car is NOT insured!

You need to call a Real Collector Car Insurer: Grundy, Haggerty or J.C. Taylor, but you WILL have to "pay-up" and buy the Comprehensive and Collision insurance, protecting the "Other Guy" will not fix your Car.

tomhoo
07-13-2016, 12:05 PM
Not being able to buy back R3 car is unacceptable.

Most collector car ins companies have one money for liability - this is basically operator's ins.

J.C. Taylor will write comp only (no coll)

StudeRich
07-13-2016, 01:14 PM
If you crash your Car with only the State required Liability Insurance, you keep the wreck and Pay BIG bucks to repair it yourself, ANY Insurance Co. will cover you for that, just use a cheap one like Allstate.

tomhoo
07-13-2016, 01:54 PM
My point is why would I crash my car?

I'm an expert driver. When I was young, twice I got minor rear ends when stopped at a light or merge sign - since them I watch behind me as much as I watch in front of me.

The whole point of Classic Car Insurance is Cheapness. In NV, I have operators insurance for $400 a year and can own as many cars as I want. Any state should be class actioned because liability tied to cars is a total shake down - cars possess no exposure - only drivers do. In fact, you should have to have min liability to maintain your license, not your registration.

But why state the obvious.

Oh, and with "socialism" running rampant, a 20 cent gasoline tax could give everyone minimum coverage which would eliminate insurance cars, traffic stops, and reduce the number of police by maybe 5%.

karterfred88
07-13-2016, 08:19 PM
I spent close to 40 years in the industry--the car belongs to you, there is no "rule" or law in any state that prohibits you from keeping it. A company may deduct a current salvage value to settle the claim, but the vehicle is never theirs unless you sign paper work transferring ownership. The insurance company may be required to report to the state that the vehicle has been determined to be an economic constructive total loss. Some "may" get and give you a salvage certificate replacing your title, but they can not "take" the salvage if you don't let them. Now state laws trying to put the car back on the road, can be daunting, if you try to fix it. I think your body shop friend is misinformed-he is so used to declaring vehicles a total and the companies towing them away that his knowledge stops there. I also know some carriers imply that the only way they will handle the claim is by you turning the vehicle over to them--however they have no leg to stand on, it's just easier for them to do it that way, and in most cases easier for you too, you don't have to dispose of what's left if you later decide to get rid of it.
The PA law is quite clearly not as your friend says:
"(ii) An appraiser authorizing removal of a motor vehicle by a vehicle salvage dealer shall inform the vehicle salvage dealer in writing that possession is merely for safe-keeping purposes and that the vehicle salvage dealer does not have any ownership rights to the motor vehicle, its parts or accessories, until a certificate of title or certificate of salvage is received indicating that ownership has been transferred."
A quick google search of "total loss salvage retention by state" will show each states policy-but none make you surrender the car.

karterfred88
07-13-2016, 08:47 PM
I'm trying to find Collector Car Insurance that has these features:



No Minimum Value Limit (usually $3000, $3500, or $5000)
Liability coverage only
Comp coverage but NO Collision
Usage restriction based on miles driven per year (not driven to work obviously)
Car kept in less than a garage such as a car port enclosed on 2 or 3 sides


I don't expect to find a company that has all these features, but then I've found collector car insurance rates that are higher than my daily driver rates.

I really don't want to have any coll/comp since it is no longer possible to "buy your car back" from the insurance company if it's totaled. Mine is a 63 R2 Package Super Lark w/R3 engine and assuming it doesn't fall into a pit of molten volcano lava, I'll want the parts back.
Why do you need a collector car insurance company, if you don't want to get a fixed value policy. Adding your car on your own policy with mileage of 3000 per year is probably cheaper, now getting them to write comp may be a problem, but maybe not. Have you tried??

Hawklover
07-13-2016, 09:08 PM
Not true..........JC Taylor does write coll, as I have it on my car.
Not being able to buy back R3 car is unacceptable.

Most collector car ins companies have one money for liability - this is basically operator's ins.

J.C. Taylor will write comp only (no coll)

tomhoo
07-13-2016, 10:01 PM
J.C. Taylor obviously writes Coll. What is news is that they will only write Comp. with Liability of course.

I'm a single driver, have 5 cars and drive less than 10k miles a year combined on all of them. Conventional non-NV policies assume there are 5 drivers. NV Operator's Liability Policy realizes there is no difference in liability whether I drive 1 car 10k miles or 10 cars 1k miles a year.

Conventional insurance is not designed for car collectors - people that have lots of cars. Collector Car Insurance is.

And here is another little bit: Collision. If I wreck the same car 5 times, I pay 1 Coll premium. But if I wreck 5 cars 1 time each, I pay 5x the Coll premium. So Coll is a real rip-off.

Comp on the other hand is not since a fire or calamity could destroy all the cars.

A lot of the Collector Car Insurance Co's write Lia for one money no matter how many cars. JCT does not. Hagerty does.

I was wonder what Coll would cost for $5k coverage with $5k deductible (!) haha Or $3k coverage w/$2500 deductible.

______________________________

PA even "admits" this. Multi-car discounts are maybe 75% of the primary rate. However if you self-insure, additional cars are something like 20% of the primary rate. That right there shows they are aware of it. And since self insure does not involve insurance companies, there can't be any funny business rate deals in back rooms. In fact, I filed a complaint with the state insurance commission and they said that yes I was right but they have to chart 75% for each additional car "for administrative costs."

The relationship between insurance companies and the state insurance commissioner is usually one of the most corrupt quid pro quo's out there.

karterfred88
07-14-2016, 10:52 AM
I won't mention insurance company names here. One company which had my business, insuring 4 cars, 1 vintage, 1 older ( 14 years old) the other 2, 1-3 years old with 2 drivers, a combined vehicle mileage of 20,000 miles for both drivers, came up with a premium probably much as you stated. Another company, which now has my business, determined rates differently-in the same state, same cars, same coverage, same drivers, leading to a premium of 42% of the other, or less than 1/2. Shop around.

tomhoo
07-14-2016, 01:09 PM
Oh, you are so right, I would say that coverage among the insurance companies varies by more than 2:1 which is scandalous.

I'm with Erie and they have been one of the lowest around. I know in Florida, I had State Farm (of course Erie wasn't available there) which was also much cheaper and here is why: (everyone should read this)


I lived in Tequesta FL, just north of County Line Road. This was still in Palm Beach County. The next county to the north was Martin County. MC rates were about 2/3rds those of PBC. Many insurance companies based rates by zipcode, State Farm did not and recognized I was in MC. Amazing reduction in rates.


I have been with Erie pushing 40 years and am somewhat loyal - they wrote me a check for $9000 for hail damage for my house and frankly, I was unaware of it - I only had them look at it at the suggestion of a contractor friend.

FYI, outfits like Geico, AIG, etc. that are always sending their junk mail are incredibly high. I suppose if you have lots of accidents, maybe they bring something to the table.

And one thing which really torques me off is they actually have accident forgiveness and won't jack you rates. This means you actually cost the company money. But when it comes to a speeding ticket, they will jack rates - and that doesn't cost the company money. The whole speed ticket/rate hike is just another shake down organized (RICO implied) by the insurance companies and state insurance commission.

Pressure returning to normal, vent closed... :)

karterfred88
07-14-2016, 04:41 PM
Yes-points vs. experience. Always has been, probably always will. The same goes for two $40,000.00 cars, one being "high performance" one being "luxury" two different rates, despite prior experience on the policy. Remember "speed kills" not the driver, just check any accident report "associated cause" speed, not driver incompetence.

tomhoo
07-14-2016, 05:48 PM
I think NHTSA even admitted their Speed Kills propaganda was actually untrue.

It is interesting that the most important thing, safe following distance which appears to be a popular enforcement in Europe (correct me if I'm wrong), is a non-issue here. The convenience of the radar gun and boxes of donuts overwhelms our weak minded constabulary.

"What is a safe following distance?" - the answer has no speed consideration.

Eisenhower would probably roll over in his grave if he saw what we've done with our Autobahn. I still remember a Popular Science issue with something like "Highways of the Future" where they had 38* banked turns and 120mph lanes.

Once we were Brave and Cherished Liberty...
_________________________

Well, there is always Nevada and their One Money Operator's Liability Policy.

I still don't know if any other states have it.

Unfortunately, NV registration is based on car value which really sucks if you have a bunch of new ones.

52 Ragtop
07-14-2016, 06:33 PM
I deal with this all the time. First of all, it's YOUR property, they cannot force you to take any settlement. (at least in Indiana) second: You need to do your research as to a "fair market value" in other words, check around and see what similar vehicles are ACTUALLY selling for. NOT what the asking price is. Try to find 3 or 4 like yours, in similar condition, add up the numbers and dive by the number of vehicles you found.
Third: be realistic. Most insurance companies do not want to deal with a salvage pool with older collector cars. They "may" shoot yo a low ball number on value, if so, ask for the "Printed Report" and also ask how they came to that conclusion on the value.
The "better" Insurance Companies will provide all of that info to you, but just because it was Granpas car, dos NOT add any value to it.

As far as salvage, most companies have an "agreement" with the Auction yards, certain percentages of the value is what they will pay, the older the vehicle, the less the percentage. Just be sure to find out who is responsible for the towing and storage charges up until you agree to a value.
I am NOT sticking up for insurance companies! but, I understand how they think.
My Dad was involved in an accident 15 years ago, the insurance company offered him HALF of what his van was worth. I got involved, and he also had paperwork from 3 different dealers stating, in that condition, on their lot the price would be $XXXX
One MUST do their homework before arguing with insurance, and have something in black and white as to how you determined the value.

Jim

Lynn
07-15-2016, 09:25 AM
We have five vehicles insured with MK insurance. Call and ask for Tamra. Her email address is also on the web page: http://www.mkinsuranceagency.com/

I have agreed value coverage on each one, ranging from $5,000 to $70k, and can tell you it is ridiculously cheap compared to "normal" car insurance.

You pick the value. You pick how many miles per year you may drive. I can drive any one to work up to two days per week. Each vehicle must spend the night in a locked garage.

If I make big improvements to a car, and need to up the coverage, all it takes is an email.

I have never had a claim, but have acquaintances who have, and have heard no complaints.

tomhoo
07-17-2016, 01:54 AM
We have five vehicles insured with MK insurance. Call and ask for Tamra. Her email address is also on the web page: http://www.mkinsuranceagency.com/

I have agreed value coverage on each one, ranging from $5,000 to $70k, and can tell you it is ridiculously cheap compared to "normal" car insurance.

You pick the value. You pick how many miles per year you may drive. I can drive any one to work up to two days per week. Each vehicle must spend the night in a locked garage.

If I make big improvements to a car, and need to up the coverage, all it takes is an email.

I have never had a claim, but have acquaintances who have, and have heard no complaints.

MK sounds interesting.

But I just talked with Hagerty and was shocked that they have rates based on Garaged, Carport w/3 sides enclosed, and Carport. They have a $3500 min Coll/Comp valuation and value references that are not used by, for example, American Classics - so my 87 Turbo Sprint would make the $3500 easily. They also will write Lia & Comp w/o Coll which basically cuts rates in half.

I may be able to rent a garage next to my house which would be satisfy storage for my 2nd car, but with Hagerty, I can simply use my carport and be totally legal. I really like that idea.

tomhoo
07-23-2016, 09:08 PM
I called MK and their premium is about 60% of Hagerties. However Hagerty will accept carports - which really makes me want to patronize them.

I have 2 cars, maybe carport car for Hagerty and garage car for MK??? There might be some multicar discounts in play though.

joncon
07-23-2016, 09:43 PM
I emailed MK and got an estimate on my cars, the price they quoted was higher than what I pay Hagerty.