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rgallatin
05-19-2016, 06:02 PM
Studebaker R4 engine? Were any R4 cars built, tested, photographed, or displayed? Or is the R4 a myth?

http://www.theavanti.net/r3.html

SN-60
05-19-2016, 06:29 PM
Although impressive to look at, the R4 Avanti engine was considered a bit of a 'dog' in its day. Today, with its extremely high compression ratio and over-carburation, an engine such as this would be considered completely impractical for street use.

However, one Studebaker vehicle, a '64 Daytona hardtop, came off the Stude production line with an R4 engine.

Studebaker built about four more R4 cars.... Daytona convertibles/GT Hawks for testing/speed runs at Bonneville. :)

(No Avantis were built with an R4 engine....which is probably a blessing!)

StudeRich
05-19-2016, 06:54 PM
The R4's and even the R5 are NOT Myths, the Granatelli Bros. operating as Paxton Div. of Studebaker did build and run them quite successfully actually.
Auto Magazine Editors did even drive one on the Street!

The R4's do exist in very small quantities of course, I never heard of anyone knowledgeable about Avantis call them a MYTH! :ohmy:

rgallatin
05-19-2016, 07:35 PM
I appreciate the facts about the Daytona/GT Hawks. "No Avantis were built with an R4 engine" clarifies my confusion about the "Avanti R4 engine."

rgallatin
05-19-2016, 07:45 PM
I never thought R4 engines were a myth, only that Avantis with "Avanti R4 engines" might be. Studebaker did tend to use "R4" with the Avanti name.

bezhawk
05-19-2016, 07:58 PM
54267Not unless you make them

alaipairod
05-19-2016, 08:26 PM
YUP............This pony ain't playing dead any time soon............

jeds55
05-19-2016, 09:06 PM
Thanks to Richard Quinn....He posted this picture some years back on the factory Daytona R-4 ...engine shot

Jessie J.
05-19-2016, 11:10 PM
Yes. Paxton was a wholly owned Division of Studebaker and produced all of the 'factory assembled' R4 engines.
Consistent with Studebaker Corporation's advertising nomenclature all of the 'High Performance' 'R' series engines were designated as being 'Avanti' engines. The R-1, R-2, R-3 & R-4.
No production Avanti's were sold with the 'Avanti powered' R-4 engine, and only a single production 'Super Lark' came so equipped

Jessie J.
05-19-2016, 11:29 PM
Although impressive to look at, the R4 Avanti engine was considered a bit of a 'dog' in its day. ...
It is interesting that the contemporary magazine Road Test ('Car Life' as I recall, -still have a copy or two stashed away) particularly noted that their test vehicle displayed strong torque characteristics that allowed it to smoothly pull from low RPM's in third gear, which seems inconsistent with what others have reported, at any rate the testers came off as quite pleased with the R-4 engine's performance and tractability (other than its prodigious fuel consumption)
Perhaps Car Life was being particularly generous with the poor struggling underdog company? or their test car was better tuned than any that came after? Heck if I know, as I've never driven that one.
There are quite a few R-4 engine 'conversions' and clone's out there, some have had their R-4 power for 50+ years, and apparently run well enough to satisfy their owners.

8E45E
05-20-2016, 06:39 AM
More here: http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?30201-From-the-Archives-14-(R-4)

Craig

Quentin
05-20-2016, 08:32 AM
any reason why it wouldn't be just as well behaved as a standard single 4bbl engine given the progressive carb linkage?? (and goes like stink when you plant ze foot.......!!.)

fpstude
05-20-2016, 08:49 AM
Nice battery anchor on the factor photo.

Buzzard
05-20-2016, 09:59 AM
bezhawk, very nicely done. Interesting that Richard Quinn's photo shows two small air cleaners whereas the set up I got from Stu-V (circa 1971) used the AC single louvered aluminum top fitted to both carbs and I believe it was the same unit used on dual quad corvettes in the late fifties. As for what Jessie J stated, mine was good enough to put my GT Hawk to 14.4 in the quarter. I concur about the lack of economy and the thirst for 104 octane.
Bill

Bob Caser
05-20-2016, 11:11 AM
54267Not unless you make them

Very Nice !!! Nice touch between original pieces and your upgrades. Impressive starter cable.

Bob Caser

nels
05-20-2016, 01:32 PM
[QUOTE=SN-60;990799]Although impressive to look at, the R4 Avanti engine was considered a bit of a 'dog' in its day.

I'll have to disagree here. I had one in an Avanti and it was no slouch. It felt stronger than a strong R2 for sure. I was really impressed as I had heard a similar comment prior to the ownership.

63larkr1
05-20-2016, 05:35 PM
I was told if you want to go fast with a Studebaker it needs a supercharger, so I built one without a supercharger to see for my self. I found out you don't need a supercharger to make power. Now I read that the R4 was dog in it's day, maybe but how do we know that? I think Nels would know if anyone does. Maybe someday I'll find out for my self.
Richard

SN-60
05-20-2016, 06:38 PM
Granted that an original Studebaker Avanti R4 engine is a very rare. super-interesting piece....but, to me anyway, it was a Studebaker/Granatelli attempt at wringing out as much power as possible from a 305 CI un-supercharged engine....and still pass it off as a 'streetable' option.

The R4 engine in full Studebaker 'spec', in my opinion, is simply a technological dead-end! :(

SN-60
05-20-2016, 06:54 PM
54267Not unless you make them

Interesting Stude Avanti engine!.....With the supercharger it can't be called an R4,...and with the dual quads it can't be called an R3!

We know its not an R5,....so I'll call it an 'R3 & 1/2'!!!! ;)

bezhawk
05-20-2016, 09:06 PM
Very Nice !!! Nice touch between original pieces and your upgrades. Impressive starter cable.

Bob Caser That's the battery cable, it's in the trunk.

StudeMichael
05-20-2016, 10:28 PM
Totally agree. The R4 setup makes the R2 feel like a flat head 6.

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[QUOTE=SN-60;990799]Although impressive to look at, the R4 Avanti engine was considered a bit of a 'dog' in its day.

I'll have to disagree here. I had one in an Avanti and it was no slouch. It felt stronger than a strong R2 for sure. I was really impressed as I had heard a similar comment prior to the ownership.

shifter4
05-21-2016, 05:18 AM
Granted that an original Studebaker Avanti R4 engine is a very rare. super-interesting piece....but, to me anyway, it was a Studebaker/Granatelli attempt at wringing out as much power as possible from a 305 CI un-supercharged engine....and still pass it off as a 'streetable' option.

The R4 engine in full Studebaker 'spec', in my opinion, is simply a technological dead-end! :(

I always took it as a the Stude equivalent to the Dual Quad high end performance engines like the 409's , 406's and 413's etc
that the other guys had. Those are a not the best street behaving engines either , but they were intended for a certain type
of customer that wanted them . Very high CR , nasty cam , needing a lot of gear.....what fun !!
These types of customers would like to tweak the thing anyway , and expected the roughness etc .
That even goes back to the 265 Chevy days ( '56 ) and on to the 270 HP 283's in '57 , and various other combo's produced
by the larger manufacturers .
Different world in the mid 60's .

SN-60
05-21-2016, 07:24 AM
Although the Studebaker Avanti R4 isn't in the same league as the Chrysler 426 Hemi, like the hemi it no doubt needed to be kept in 'perfect tune' or else it wouldn't perform,....which made day-to-day driving with either of these engines 'sketchy at best'! :ohmy:

A Studebaker Avanti R2, in a decent state of tune, would'nt need this type of 'anal' everyday tuning, and would no doubt 'blow the doors' off of a stumbling R4! (IMHO)

.....Don't get me wrong now,...if I actually OWNED an original R4 engine it would no doubt be in my show '63 Avanti, and would be on display at every car show around here! (Whether I'd have to tow it there or not!! :woot:)

nels
05-21-2016, 03:41 PM
Now, I'm not trying to get anything or anybody bent out of shape but Andy Beckman showed me a photo of an R4 in an Avanti. It was a factory photo. I wish I could have made out the body number but it wasn't legible.

Buzzard
05-22-2016, 12:00 PM
Who here owns or remembers an Engine Swap magazine from around 1969 showing the crew pulling out an R 4 from an Avanti so they could install a Big Block Olds (probably a 455) with much more torque? Somewhere I have an older article from Racer Brown (the California Camshaft Guru who heavily modified an Avanti 288 camshaft for my R4 clone) raving about the virtues of two four barrel carbs on a V8 engine for more even fuel distribution. I think one of the reasons it works so well on my clone is due to the very high compression ratio of 12 1/2 to 1 due to my use of Jahn's forged pistons and heavily modified NON R3/4 cylinder heads. I normally would never think that 1200+ cfm could be feasible on only 304.5 CID but it certainly works. I should point out that the STU-V dual quad intake has much smaller ports so the increased velocity achieved is probably the key.
Bill

Jessie J.
05-22-2016, 11:42 PM
I have a pair of 400 cfm AFBs on a Weiand 2x4 Caddy intake. 800 cfm being plenty enough for my 390.

I've often wondered why Granatelli/Studebaker decided to employ such huge AFB's, when smaller, better matched (likely more responsive) set-ups were readily available.

t walgamuth
05-23-2016, 06:15 AM
Who here owns or remembers an Engine Swap magazine from around 1969 showing the crew pulling out an R 4 from an Avanti so they could install a Big Block Olds (probably a 455) with much more torque? Somewhere I have an older article from Racer Brown (the California Camshaft Guru who heavily modified an Avanti 288 camshaft for my R4 clone) raving about the virtues of two four barrel carbs on a V8 engine for more even fuel distribution. I think one of the reasons it works so well on my clone is due to the very high compression ratio of 12 1/2 to 1 due to my use of Jahn's forged pistons and heavily modified NON R3/4 cylinder heads. I normally would never think that 1200+ cfm could be feasible on only 304.5 CID but it certainly works. I should point out that the STU-V dual quad intake has much smaller ports so the increased velocity achieved is probably the key.
Bill

Would that have been a Peterson swap magazine? I have a couple from the seventies but I don't think there are any avantis in them. I spent hours in my younger years dreaming of various swaps similar to what they showed.

bezhawk
05-23-2016, 09:52 AM
Petersons book of engine swaping #2 published 1968.

Dan White
05-23-2016, 01:27 PM
Since Studebaker made only one factory R4 vehicle it is hard to understand everyone peeing all over this engine. I don't remember anyone calling the 265 or 283 cu in. dual quad Chevys back in the day dogs or poor performers. I believe these came with dual 400 CFM Carters. A friend of mine has a '56 dual quad Corvette and it is quite a good performer when opened up. Yes, dual quads are not the best for normal street driving and one would not recommend it for run of the mill, but if you gotta have the best performance I would imagine the R4 would not have disappointed one for hard track or street use, most of us will unfortunately never know.

t walgamuth
05-23-2016, 03:13 PM
Petersons book of engine swaping #2 published 1968.

I'll have to check what mine is.;)

Bellingham Studenut
05-23-2016, 05:32 PM
Since Studebaker made only one factory R4 vehicle it is hard to understand everyone peeing all over this engine.

There is only 1 person doing that and calling R4 engines a dog...

SN-60
05-23-2016, 05:41 PM
There is only 1 person doing that and calling R4 engines a dog...

Jimmy,...Are you saying there's only one HONEST person in the group?....I truly doubt that! ;)

t walgamuth
05-23-2016, 06:50 PM
I have #3 and 4 peterson swap book.;)