3 out of 4 ain't so good.

[wlfrench]

Got home from work today and the water pump I ordered from SI had arrived. Since my GT was already on jack stands waiting for the new leaf springs to arrive I decided to jump on this project . Removing the fan shroud and fan didn't take too long as the previous owner had replaced the radiator and had all of this off not toooo long ago. The water pump itself was a different issue altogether. Three out of the four bolt heads broke off trying to remove the old water pump. Now a simple 2 hour project has turned into major, god knows how long, project. Right now I'm thinking that easiest thing to do is replace the water pump manifold, if I can find one. If not I'll have to take my manifold into work and try to remove the three broken studs. I checked SI and I didn't find one there. If anybody has one they would like to part with please let me know.

[63t-cab]

Wayne, I sent You a PM.

[swvalcon]

Just pull the water pump manifold and drill out the bolts off the car. Plus you can clean and paint it and install new gaskets which are more than likely needed anyway.

[SN-60]

That's why it's smart to try and remember to use a product like 'NEVER SEIZE' on the fasteners when replacing parts.

[Studebakercenteroforegon]

How many Studebaker V-8 water pumps have I changed in my life? 150? 200? Even more? I don't know but I have never even broken one bolt. I'm just pointing this out so that people will not think this is a common issue. And I'm sorry you had this issue - I'm not trying to be mean spirited about this.
I have several used water pump manifolds laying around my shop, but given the distance to ship I think you could easily drill and re-thread.

[wlfrench]

That's why it's smart to try and remember to use a product like 'NEVER SEIZE' on the fasteners when replacing parts.

I only wish the last guy had used the Never Seize. I was amazed at how easily the bolt heads broke off. Must have been cheap Chinese made hardware.

[wlfrench]

Just pull the water pump manifold and drill out the bolts off the car. Plus you can clean and paint it and install new gaskets which are more than likely needed anyway.

I don't have any problem with pulling the manifold off its just one more thing to do. I knew going in that things like this would happen.

[evilhawk]

I would offer you the manifold off my 259 v8, but 3 out of four of the bolts that hold the thermostat housing snapped off

[spokejr]

Soak the broken bolts with Kroil for a week, lightly tap with a center punch to loosen. After the week try walking the bolts out by using the center punch to turn the bolts. If the threads are dicey, you can Heli-Coil the threads. If you do one, do all.

I have a manifold that came off an engine I just bought that is the short one but the engine is an R series goinig into an Avanti. If your's doesn't work out, let me know.

[TWChamp]

I learned a good trick from a Model A guy for removing broken studs. Many Model A head studs break, and it's usually flush with the top of the block. You lay a large flat washer around the broken stud, then weld the washer to the stud. Let it cool some, then weld a large nut to the stud and flat washer by welding through the middle of the nut. Let it cool and unscrew the stud. If the nut/washer breaks off, just repeat the process. I've never had it fail me yet either on the first or second try.

Before I learned that trick I would carefully center punch the broken stud exactly in the center, then drill a 1/8" hole through the stud. Keep increasing the size of the hole until the edge of the threads start to show, then use a dental pick to start pulling out the threads. Once I got down a few threads I'd try a tap to see if it would catch the threads and spin them out, or at least loosen them to make it easier to pick them out. Try left hand drill bits, and you might get lucky and spin the stud out while drilling the holes.

Another trick to try if the stud sticks up above the surface is to use the torch to heat the stud, then as it cools you hold wax against the stud, and it will wick down the threads and make the stud much easier to remove.

As mentioned, always use anti-seize on threads, or at least use grease.

[jclary]

I only wish the last guy had used the Never Seize. I was amazed at how easily the bolt heads broke off. Must have been cheap Chinese made hardware.

Being the holder of a useless psychology degree, and not a mechanic certificate, nor an engineering degree, I felt compelled to walk out to the cave and examine a water manifold before commenting. Not that I am without credentials...growing up in the hard scrabble south, scrounging up the mechanical worn out used machinery others had discarded and abandoned, repairing it, fixing it, and making it work for us was a good education in itself. Oh, and before going to college for that useless psychology degree, I did a few years in the Air Force, and obtained a few certificates in Aerospace equipment (whatever that means).

Anyway, looking at the water manifold, there is a bit of critical science involved. First, is TORQUE. Although, the water manifold is a rather tough looking and somewhat crude casting, there are some very important specifications that must be observed while "messin'"(scientific term) with it. After all, we are dealing with a rather tiny and short 5/16" bolt. It is only one size larger than the 1/4" bolt. It is, in terms of torque, the smallest diameter bolt to have torque measurements given in foot pounds instead of inch pounds. In a perfect clean clinical environment, it is to be tightened between 13-17 foot pounds of torque (clamping force). That's cut & dry, right?

Of course, we know this is not a clean clinical environment. In fact, in a water manifold, anything but! It is wet, and over time, rusty. Not only wet and rusty, but subject to repetitive heat cycles. Very often, with our cars, subject to very long periods of wet inactivity...a stagnant, witches brew. It is also on fire. A slow wet fire of oxidation. Those tiny little 5/16ths bolt threads are extended into the inside cavity of the water manifold. They are being subjected to the same molecular chemical interaction as the rest of the system.

Here's where it is important to adhere to the specified torque when installing a water pump. I agree that never seize might help. However, if those bolts where exposed to the water, "rust weld" themselves to the adjacent metal they are clamped to, I can see where they could snap rather than screw out. In other words, the shear force (what we are dealing with when removing a bolt) has exceeded the lateral mechanical strength of the bolt. One trick I have learned to use, is trauma. That is, to take a small hammer, and a box end wrench, and tap the wrench while applying force. Even then, it takes a bit of finesse, to "feel" when the threads are releasing or the bolt head is about to break.

I'll admit to not always using a torque wrench on such components. These bolts are easy to "over-torque." Sometimes, no matter how careful, how well you can read a torque wrench, we will encounter the dreaded "snap." That is why we should have, or at least, know someone with a "cherry red heat wrench." If you have never had to use one, you can't really be considered very experience with "old iron."

[Colgate Studebaker]

Ahhhhh, the cherry red heat wrench. I always thought it was just called the "fire wrench", but John, you have a much better definition. And yes, I agree that experience plays a roll in all of this. There have been several good ideas, a concern I have with any of the Stude water manifolds is "cracks" between the threaded hole and the machined hole that the pump fits into. I rather like the idea of helicoiling the bolt holes as the threads in most manifolds will be rust decayed or weakened from years of bolting/unbolting. If all else fails, find a "cherry red heat wrench", it'll help get them out. Bill

[thunderations]

OK, I've never changed a Studebaker water pump, other then on my 66 Daytona, which is not a full blooded Studebaker.
I have however changed a lot of other brand water pumps over the years. Some of them have similar issues.
If this bolt problem is common and a repeat offender, why not install studs and then use brass nuts to secure the water pump to the manifold? You could even use brass studs. These things don't get torqued that tight to seal.
Would a judge in the 10 minutes they have to judge an entire car catch it.......would it matter to you?

[BILT4ME]

I, too, have changed many of the Stude water pumps, but never broken a bolt on one.

I would NOT use brass studs on this setup. ALL of the belt tension is on the water pump and you will need the shear strength of the steel bolts that the brass one will not have. I would CONSIDER using a steel stud with a steel NYLOCK nut (again, not brass), but it is still best to use the grade 5 or grade 8 steel bolts in the the water pump in the correct factory size.

OK, I've never changed a Studebaker water pump, other then on my 66 Daytona, which is not a full blooded Studebaker.
I have however changed a lot of other brand water pumps over the years. Some of them have similar issues.
If this bolt problem is common and a repeat offender, why not install studs and then use brass nuts to secure the water pump to the manifold? You could even use brass studs. These things don't get torqued that tight to seal.
Would a judge in the 10 minutes they have to judge an entire car catch it.......would it matter to you?

[thunderations]

Good points. Just seems like replacing the bolts with studs could eliminate the corrosion problem that seems to plaque bolts. Not for the 400 point show car, but for those of us that use and abuse.

I, too, have changed many of the Stude water pumps, but never broken a bolt on one.

I would NOT use brass studs on this setup. ALL of the belt tension is on the water pump and you will need the shear strength of the steel bolts that the brass one will not have. I would CONSIDER using a steel stud with a steel NYLOCK nut (again, not brass), but it is still best to use the grade 5 or grade 8 steel bolts in the the water pump in the correct factory size.