Engine: any reason to replace head bolts on 289 V8 rebuild?

[bsrosell]

hi,
just got my "machined" engine parts back. Have all original bolts (except ARPs for the rods), but got to thinking; the Model-A Ford guys really stressed always using new head-bolts on a rebuild, especially if using a 'high-compression' (5.5:1 :- ) head.

How about my '57 Golden Hawk's 289? I don't find any posts suggesting new head bolts; were they such good steel they didn't stretch??? Still use same torque as original recommendation, etc etc??

Oh, the machinist did NOT mark the heads or the rocker arm assemblies ( I never thought about it when I dropped it off :-(

I know they are identical, unless I can match some scarring from different 'bolt-on' things, one side to the other, I have a 50/50 chance for both. Any problem with that, since all re-machined, bored, valves and seats, etc etc...??
Thanks!
Barry

[sals54]

I've not put back as many engines as someone like Jack Vines for example, but I've never replaced my head bolts. And I've never had an engine fly apart as a result. And that includes an engine in which I had milled 1/8 inch off the heads to increase compression. Yeah, you read that right. .125 inches off the face of the head. It worked fantastic with a Chevy valve conversion, Z28 dual springs and retainers and Manley Pro Flo valves. So, my opinion is, go with the old ones. Lets see if anyone else concurs.

[Mike Van Veghten]

Well..."such good steel" is a bit, over worded..!

But like all the the, Big Three manufacturers and many of the "others" (Studebaker, Nash, et-al) of the time, built parts to last. Unlike many of todays "single use only", or more properly termed, "torque to yield" fasteners, yes, you'll have no problems using "cylinder head cap screws" many times over.
As long as the treads are in good condition, the hex head is in good shape, including the "bearing surface" under the head of the cap screw, the area that bears on the head. No other nicks anyplace on the shank, etc.

Yes, again, can be used many times with a good visual inspection for bad areas as noted.

Back in the day, I used GM cylinder head cap screws 5 and 6 times on my race car, until I could afford studs. No torque problem at all.

As far as not marking the heads, no problem.
The rocker assemblies should have been marked, but as long as you use a good assembly lube on the rockers to rocker shaft, rocker to valve and rocker to pushrod. Again, make sure the pushrod tips have not been marred.
Make sure the rocker arm pads (valve contact area) are clean, free of burrs, free of high wear spots. If the rocker arms show high wear,(rough spots) they should be replaced so they do not tear up the newly faced valve tips.

Mike

[bsrosell]

Well..."such good steel" is a bit, over worded..!

But like all the the, Big Three manufacturers and many of the "others" (Studebaker, Nash, et-al) of the time, built parts to last. Unlike many of todays "single use only", or more properly termed, "torque to yield" fasteners, yes, you'll have no problems using "cylinder head cap screws" many times over.
As long as the treads are in good condition, the hex head is in good shape, including the "bearing surface" under the head of the cap screw, the area that bears on the head. No other nicks anyplace on the shank, etc.

Yes, again, can be used many times with a good visual inspection for bad areas as noted.

Back in the day, I used GM cylinder head cap screws 5 and 6 times on my race car, until I could afford studs. No torque problem at all.

As far as not marking the heads, no problem.
The rocker assemblies should have been marked, but as long as you use a good assembly lube on the rockers to rocker shaft, rocker to valve and rocker to pushrod. Again, make sure the pushrod tips have not been marred.
Make sure the rocker arm pads (valve contact area) are clean, free of burrs, free of high wear spots. If the rocker arms show high wear,(rough spots) they should be replaced so they do not tear up the newly faced valve tips.

Mike

Thanks guys. Yeah, "good steel' came from another post... a little generic (and ALL bolts stretch to some degree). :-)
Mine are nice and clean, only been apart twice (now), so should be good to go. Re: the rocker assemblies, still hoping I can take my laptop out with the photos I took prior on disassembly and match up a mark or number on a rocker..... Pads look good... BUT, I have to call the guy and find out if he took it apart and ran a brush through it or not; they were not SUPPOSED to do anything but the machining, which I can't do (pistons, crank, seat valves). Got it yesterday and had cleaned and greased oil pump (which I have a new gear set for here, do it all over again anyway), and valves all assembled (I have new valve springs here :-), freeze plugs put in all over, including the threaded small ones (again, I have THOSE new here, but not going to take out the new ones obviously). BUT have no idea if they took apart the rocker arm assembly and cleaned it or not.
Also, he requested the pistons prior to boring the cylinders (good practice....), but nothing is marked on any of them, and I can only assume they were all ~perfectly matched so all bored the same. (but will check anyway.)
I bought Phil's ARP connecting rod bolts; the guy mentioned I need a special ARP lube, but I neglected to ask where you get it, closest ARP dealer is over 30 minutes away (I'd order from Amazon first...). Any acceptable replacements for ARP's "ultra-lube' or whatever they call it?
Thanks!
It WOULD have to drop to 9F from 40s -60s for the first time all fall, JUST as I get it home and need to get it painted, at least the block that I can't take in the basement and do after warming it up some other time. ONE week short... after having it up there 6 months. Oh well. It's a hobby. AND, I think they did really good work, (yeah, MORE than I asked, but communication issue, not machining. They build race engines so I'm guessing my specs are pretty tight and I'll be very happy with it!)

[Chicken Hawk]

Thanks guys. Yeah, "good steel' came from another post... a little generic (and ALL bolts stretch to some degree). :-)
Mine are nice and clean, only been apart twice (now), so should be good to go. Re: the rocker assemblies, still hoping I can take my laptop out with the photos I took prior on disassembly and match up a mark or number on a rocker..... Pads look good... BUT, I have to call the guy and find out if he took it apart and ran a brush through it or not; they were not SUPPOSED to do anything but the machining, which I can't do (pistons, crank, seat valves). Got it yesterday and had cleaned and greased oil pump (which I have a new gear set for here, do it all over again anyway), and valves all assembled (I have new valve springs here :-), freeze plugs put in all over, including the threaded small ones (again, I have THOSE new here, but not going to take out the new ones obviously). BUT have no idea if they took apart the rocker arm assembly and cleaned it or not.
Also, he requested the pistons prior to boring the cylinders (good practice....), but nothing is marked on any of them, and I can only assume they were all ~perfectly matched so all bored the same. (but will check anyway.)
I bought Phil's ARP connecting rod bolts; the guy mentioned I need a special ARP lube, but I neglected to ask where you get it, closest ARP dealer is over 30 minutes away (I'd order from Amazon first...). Any acceptable replacements for ARP's "ultra-lube' or whatever they call it?
Thanks!
It WOULD have to drop to 9F from 40s -60s for the first time all fall, JUST as I get it home and need to get it painted, at least the block that I can't take in the basement and do after warming it up some other time. ONE week short... after having it up there 6 months. Oh well. It's a hobby. AND, I think they did really good work, (yeah, MORE than I asked, but communication issue, not machining. They build race engines so I'm guessing my specs are pretty tight and I'll be very happy with it!)

ARP recommended torque to 60 pounds with 30 weight oil and 50 with ARP lube.

Ted

[swvalcon]

Most of the aftermarket bolts today are coming from China. I would take my chances with head bolts make in the USA in the 50's over anything coming from there that the seller is buying for a few cents each.

[PackardV8]

Reusing head bolts is almost never a problem given:

1. The bolt threads have been cleaned by shot blasting or wire wheel.

2. The threads in the block have been chased with a bottoming tap. (Yes, there are those who will only use a specific thread chaser, but I and my machinist have been using regular taps for fifty years with no problems.) Clean the tap after each hole and blow out the holes before assembly.

3. I use washers under all the head bolts because age, rust, shot-blasting have roughened the head surface, increasing friction there.

Yes, disassemble the rocker assembly, remove the plugs, clean the interior with bore brushes, blow out all the holes and use new soft plugs. Examine the rocker tips and if there are any marks, they'll need reground.

Yes, there is usually hard carbon hidden inside the passages through the rocker adjuster screws. It's a lose-lose, because if there's a lot of carbon, the wasp-waisted type adjusters will break being removed. (There are at least three types of adjusters. The straight thread are stronger.) Soak for a few days in solvent, blow air through the passages, turn the screw a half-turn, soak, blow, repeat.

Oh, the machinist did NOT mark the heads or the rocker arm assemblies ( I never thought about it when I dropped it off :-( I know they are identical, unless I can match some scarring from different 'bolt-on' things, one side to the other, I have a 50/50 chance for both. Any problem with that, since all re-machined, bored, valves and seats, etc etc...??

In a perfect world, one would have marked each rocker to each pushrod end. That seldom-to-never happens and the engine most likely won't know the difference.

jack vines

[Treblig]

All bolts stretch when torqued. The bolt will shrink back to it's original length when removed. If you over torque or stretch a bolt too much it will become permanently deformed. Threads will distort and the bolts will elongate. I know that many folks measure the overall length of a head bolt to determine if it has stretched too much. You can make a search on the internet to see what elongated bolts/distorted threads look like. Unless you know what the stock bolt length should be ( I don't) you won't know what they should measure. But you can inspect them for elongation "signs" and distorted threads are also pretty easy to spot. If the previous owner has over-torqued the bolts they might be stretched/elongated.
Permanent elongation of a bolt will weaken it.



Treblig

[altair]

I may have missed it, but I didn't see in the posts that the cam was confirmed true and the lifters were ground true. I just completed a 259 with all the usual replacement parts. The cam and lifters did need re grinding. The torque on Stude V8 head bolts are 30 ft lbs, on some of todays engines they are 90 ft lbs. 30 ft lbs of torque will do little or no damage to a head bolt. 80 lbs of cast iron head is much more forgiving than a light modern aluminum head.

[PackardV8]

The torque on Stude V8 head bolts are 30 ft lbs, on some of todays engines they are 90 ft lbs. 30 ft lbs of torque will do little or no damage to a head bolt. 80 lbs of cast iron head is much more forgiving than a light modern aluminum head.

My Shop Manuals usually say Stude V8 head bolt torque is around 55-65#.

jack vines

[altair]

My Shop Manuals usually say Stude V8 head bolt torque is around 55-65#.

jack vines

I need some lessons in remedial reading my manual says 46 - 50 ft lbs. for the head cap screws and 30 ft lbs for the intake manifold, sorry for the mis-info. 50 ft lbs will not do a lot of damage to head cap screws.

[StudeRich]

The only time I have ever had an issue with stretched V8 Head bolts was on the Rocker Arm head bolts, several of those being the longest and the only ones with Flat Washers, did Break on me on the '62 Transtar 289 Rebuild.

Then I replaced all of the long ones and have to assume someone else can't or did not read the Shop Manual either, and over torqued them, 65 Ft. Lbs. is what I use.

[bsrosell]

THANKS, to all. I am so thankful for all you guys and your willingness to share experience/knowledge.
Will be reusing my head-bolts; I did order a small tube of the ARP lube for my new rod bolts, so guess that wouldn't be a bad idea under the head bolt face either....
For the record (per one comment), camshaft was sent to Cam shop and reground, crank sent out and magnafluxed and machined to .020, and different machinist did pistons/bores match (new eutectic .030) and rods.

I have some other questions, but this was about head bolts, so will end with THANKS, and start a new post.
Barry

[bsrosell]

Reusing head bolts is almost never a problem given:

1. The bolt threads have been cleaned by shot blasting or wire wheel.

2. The threads in the block have been chased with a bottoming tap. (Yes, there are those who will only use a specific thread chaser, but I and my machinist have been using regular taps for fifty years with no problems.) Clean the tap after each hole and blow out the holes before assembly.

3. I use washers under all the head bolts because age, rust, shot-blasting have roughened the head surface, increasing friction there.

Yes, disassemble the rocker assembly, remove the plugs, clean the interior with bore brushes, blow out all the holes and use new soft plugs. Examine the rocker tips and if there are any marks, they'll need reground.

Yes, there is usually hard carbon hidden inside the passages through the rocker adjuster screws. It's a lose-lose, because if there's a lot of carbon, the wasp-waisted type adjusters will break being removed. (There are at least three types of adjusters. The straight thread are stronger.) Soak for a few days in solvent, blow air through the passages, turn the screw a half-turn, soak, blow, repeat.



In a perfect world, one would have marked each rocker to each pushrod end. That seldom-to-never happens and the engine most likely won't know the difference.

jack vines

oh, one last point to follow up: Jack, I DID get in touch with machinist (for block), and heads are marked under the plastic wrap I have not removed, barely pricked but now I know where to look. So, good. QUESTION: I'm sure this will be obvious once I get it apart and/or get to that part of my shop manual reading, but first V8 of any kind, fun for me, but being extra careful as 'all new' info to me. And a lot different than a '30 or '29 Ford !!!!.

I thought the "Soft plugs" were simply the 'frost/freeze plugs" in the engine block (which were replaced after block cleaned/machined).
What are the 'soft plugs" in the rocker assembly that you speak of, (the engine rebuilder just soaked and cleaned rocker assembly, did NOT disassemble so I WILL be taking them apart here anyway). Why can't you re-use that 'soft plug', if it looks ok? Never heard of a 'soft plug' before in rocker arm assembly. Pardon my ignorance. Again, shop manual will tell me where/what they are, but you obviously have experience with when/why they should be replaced. (and I assume they are available from our SI vendors, then, even though they do NOT come with the "FULL Rebuild Kit" ?) (Or, were you simply reminding me in same paragraph to make sure BLOCK's freeze plugs were replaced??)
Thanks Jack!

[rusty nut garage]

1/2 inch soft plugs are available from your local parts store. They also come in the engine rebuild small parts kits available from our vendors along with the cotter keys.

oh, one last point to follow up: Jack, I DID get in touch with machinist (for block), and heads are marked under the plastic wrap I have not removed, barely pricked but now I know where to look. So, good. QUESTION: I'm sure this will be obvious once I get it apart and/or get to that part of my shop manual reading, but first V8 of any kind, fun for me, but being extra careful as 'all new' info to me. And a lot different than a '30 or '29 Ford !!!!.

I thought the "Soft plugs" were simply the 'frost/freeze plugs" in the engine block (which were replaced after block cleaned/machined).
What are the 'soft plugs" in the rocker assembly that you speak of, (the engine rebuilder just soaked and cleaned rocker assembly, did NOT disassemble so I WILL be taking them apart here anyway). Why can't you re-use that 'soft plug', if it looks ok? Never heard of a 'soft plug' before in rocker arm assembly. Pardon my ignorance. Again, shop manual will tell me where/what they are, but you obviously have experience with when/why they should be replaced. (and I assume they are available from our SI vendors, then, even though they do NOT come with the "FULL Rebuild Kit" ?) (Or, were you simply reminding me in same paragraph to make sure BLOCK's freeze plugs were replaced??)
Thanks Jack!