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Studebaker Ron
03-02-2015, 10:36 PM
Hey Guys
Engine is now officially in the Operating Room. My Buddy and I pulled the engine on my 1950 Champion over the weekend and we (He did the work) started to pull it apart tonight. Overall the cylinders looked good. The fiber gear that I thought was causing the knocking sound was not the cause at all but it will be replaced with an aluminum one from Studebaker International. The cause for my knocking was 6 busted valve springs that you may or may not be able to see in the photos. Please give me any recommendations and or comments as this engine is older than anything that I or my buddy have had our hands into. General first thoughts are that this is a simple little engine that came apart with ease. She was covered with about 1/8 to a ¼” of sludge both inside and out…..must be due to lesser quality oils of the past as I have never seen an engine coated this thick on the inside. It was apparent that it was never rebuilt in the past and I may just be able to get away with honing the cylinders walls depending on measurement once the cylinders are removed.

Thanks
Ron
:whome::whome::whome:

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TWChamp
03-02-2015, 11:47 PM
Number 3 is wet on top of the piston. Did this engine burn oil or smoke? I wonder what caused all the broken springs? I've rarely had broken springs on the engines I've worked on. Pay attention to the third piston for broken or stuck rings, which could cause the wet carbon.

Skybolt
03-03-2015, 08:03 AM
If all one does is add oil and not change it conditions like what you encountered can be met. By the look of the outside of the engine it was not well taken care of. All in all it still looks like it is a good core for a rebuild. Time will tell, once it's cleaner.

Valve springs? I can only imagine.

Len

Studebaker Ron
03-03-2015, 11:27 AM
Tom/Len
I only drove the car 300 miles before I started to hear the knocking from the engine. I had a little smoke at start up but this went away after a few minutes of running. The outside condition of the engine was due to leaking seals that I am sure were leaking for years. As I get further into this engine I will start taking measurements. Does anyone have the original Cam Specifications for 1950 170? At this point I do not know if the cam needs to be replaced or not.

Thanks
Ron

Studebaker Ron
03-03-2015, 03:08 PM
Forgot to mention no broken or stuck rings as the engine turns by hand with ease.

StudeRich
03-03-2015, 03:27 PM
If that Piggy is going offsite for Hot Tanking, just be very sure that you do not miss removing EVERYTHING from the Block for through cleaning AND loss/damage prevention.

All 1/8" Pipe Plugs in the Oil Galleys
The "splash plates" in the Valve chambers
The Oil filler Pipe

Pay SPECIAL attention to how the Oil Pump is put together, as it is permanently TIMED to the Distributor, if you can find a way to mark the orientation of the drive gear to the camshaft it would help, maybe just a drawing of it's clocking.

The extreme Sludge buildup is for several reasons, it was not so much the QUALITY of the old Oil, but the fact that most of it was probably Non-Detergent!
The other problem was probably non-frequent Oil Changes. :(

Good luck with Miss Piggy! :D

TWChamp
03-03-2015, 06:39 PM
I agree with Rich that the engine likely used non detergent oil and may have had not so frequent oil changes. The hot tank will destroy any bearings, including camshaft bearing inserts. I used to hot tank engines where I worked in the early 80's, but it seems hard to find anyone doing it anymore. The solution was easily neutralized and washed down the drain when it was time for a change, but that probably wasn't good enough for EPA.

Studebaker Ron
03-03-2015, 07:53 PM
Do you think I need a new cam or can I use the old one?

TWChamp
03-03-2015, 09:19 PM
Do you think I need a new cam or can I use the old one?

Look at the cam lobes and lifter bottoms to see if they show any wear. If the lifters are slightly concave, or if you can see some lobes are less than others, it might be time for new parts.

Studebaker Ron
03-04-2015, 01:19 AM
Thanks Tom

Rich
Miss Piggy is going back to my friends Transmission shop and has a date with his large cleaning tank. I do not think its a traditional hot dip but it will remove the sludge. I was then going to have the outside portion of the block media blasted prior to painting it.

Ron

TWChamp
03-04-2015, 02:45 AM
How will you get all the media out of the oil passages, cooling chambers, etc.? It probably should have been blasted before it was taken apart. I blasted my Model A blocks, but they are a simpler block than a Stude six. I use compressed air and gas with a syphon sprayer to clean all the media out of my Model A blocks. After the block is completely dry I then use compressed air and blow out every passage again.

Lamar
03-04-2015, 03:34 AM
The term media blast covers a lot of things, some are very difficult to remove from engine parts, I would suggest not using anything other than soda blasting on the block. Lamar

Studebaker Ron
03-04-2015, 06:05 PM
Thanks Lamar
Will Soda Blasting remove all the rust on the engine block? It does not have heavy rust as this is a Carolina can that did not go through road salt but it still does have some rust.

Ron

StudeRich
03-04-2015, 06:50 PM
I would just wire brush the outside of the block with a Hand Brush, if there is very stubborn rust, hit it with the circular Wire Brush in your Drill.

Some Primer or Red Casting Sealer (Glyptal) before the Studebaker Olive Green Enamel Top Coat should take care of the problem. :)

Sand Blasting is about the Only method that will remove Rust, but DON'T do it!
You could end up with the prettiest, cleanest, newest Engine that ever threw a Rod!

Mrs K Corbin
03-05-2015, 10:47 AM
don't forget the oil pressure bypass on the side of the block near the timing cover.....

Lamar
03-05-2015, 11:03 AM
I would just wire brush the outside of the block with a Hand Brush, if there is very stubborn rust, hit it with the circular Wire Brush in your Drill.

Some Primer or Red Casting Sealer (Glyptal) before the Studebaker Olive Green Enamel Top Coat should take care of the problem. :)

Sand Blasting is about the Only method that will remove Rust, but DON'T do it!
You could end up with the prettiest, cleanest, newest Engine that ever threw a Rod!

It pains me greatly to agree with StudeRich on anything(LOL) but he pretty much nailed this one. Lamar

Studebaker Ron
03-05-2015, 01:46 PM
I may not have a lot Studebaker history but I do have a long history in Automotive Supplier Development in the area of castings and foundry process control. The block and head of my 50 Champion are sand castings. Are you guys saying that one could not remove all sand from the block and head after sand blasting as good or better than the foundry did in 1950? In foundries they simply vibrate the raw castings on a moving tables after the casting process to break up and remove the sand cores and sand from the mold itself. The cores form the internal voids in the castings and have chemical binders in them that make them hard as a rock. I know for a fact that a small amount of sand remains in all castings from the foundry. A lot of Modern blocks and heads use the lost foam process that eliminates most of this but the Studebaker components clearly used the sand casting method. Just trying to understand the concern because if a few grains of sand can cause engine failure just about all Studebaker engines would have failed when new. One of the things I plan on doing once the engine is all apart is to locate and remove the sand left behind from the original casting process.

Lamar
03-05-2015, 03:59 PM
Don't like to argue so you get the short version of this. The foundry castings didn't have all the machined holes etc with 90 degree intersecting points to catch and hold sand that wasn't forced into them under pressure from a sand blaster. Comparing apples and oranges in this case. Your engine your choice as always. Lamar

Studebaker Ron
03-05-2015, 04:03 PM
That makes sense and thank you for the short version.

Lamar
03-06-2015, 04:25 AM
My typing skills and spelling skills are not the best so short versions are my specialty! LOL Lamar