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Lou Van Anne
08-25-2014, 08:01 PM
The time has come to do something transmission wise, either rebuild or replace. I'm considering the 700R4. Can you offer any pointers, dos and don'ts, etc., etc.? Your thoughts will be appreciated.
Are there any Turning Wheels articles out there that I have missed?

Bullet
08-25-2014, 08:57 PM
Do a search here on the forum, lots of advise. Mostly the recommendation is now to use the 200R vs the 700R4. Lighter, and just as good. I have thinking of this same swap myself for a 64 Cruiser and am going to go with the 200R. Total cost from what I can determine for someone else to do the work is $2500.

Mark

StudeRich
08-25-2014, 09:00 PM
A '64 R2 GT Hawk is a very rare and valuable Car when original, I would never do that to one.
Is it now a Power Shift on the floor? If your goal is to lower the RPMs, why not consider a rear axle Ratio change? That would be invisible. ;)

Most THM Mods have been done to less valuable Cars and modified Street Rods.

63t-cab
08-25-2014, 09:14 PM
Lou, what You really want to get that sucker rollin or what :)

The time has come to do something transmission wise, either rebuild or replace. I'm considering the 700R4. Can you offer any pointers, dos and don'ts, etc., etc.? Your thoughts will be appreciated.
Are there any Turning Wheels articles out there that I have missed?

SScopelli
08-25-2014, 09:21 PM
I imagine you are doing this swap for your years of enjoyment and not a resale aspect.

Tons of post on the forum for the 700/200-r4 transmission installs. Do a search with in the forum and read through the many opinions.

As for the originality, keep the parts for a future would-be buyer to make the choice to go back stock.

A 700/200-r4 swap normally doesn't require modifications that cant be un-modified.

63t-cab
08-25-2014, 09:27 PM
That's kind what I was thinking.

I imagine you are doing this swap for your years of enjoyment and not a resale aspect.

Tons of post on the forum for the 700/200-r4 transmission installs. Do a search with in the forum and read through the many opinions.

As for the originality, keep the parts for a future would-be buyer to make the choice to go back stock.

A 700/200-r4 swap normally doesn't require modifications that cant be un-modified.

LarkTruck
08-26-2014, 06:08 AM
Still have a Stude to GM trans adapter from 41 Frank (Howard's Parts) for sale. New in the box, $300 plus postage.
Jim

Studerick64
08-26-2014, 01:15 PM
Cost to overhaul the powershift and a rear end ratio change can come close to the cost of the 700/200 r4 conversion. Locally most transmission shops are charging 1,000.00 dollars bench labor plus the cost of hard parts if they can even find them. This is for the opportunity to learn how to build this transmission since they have never done one. I used to get them done for 150.00 bench labor and parts and a six pack of beer. I found an add on Craigslist in southern california 299.00 including hard parts, been considering sending a truckload down to him.

rodnutrandy
08-26-2014, 03:32 PM
I have a trans shop near me that at the time charged me $600 for a 700r4, came over hauled , with shift kit, Corvette higher stall lock up converter , Only had 1 problem since rebuild , A switch on high gear on valve body went bad and wouldn't lock the converter . easy fix, The only electric parts in a 700r4 are convertor lockup and neutral, reverse light switch . That was about 5 years ago, can check price now if you want . In Hillsboro, Ohio

Swifster
08-26-2014, 09:15 PM
I'm still a big fan of the 700R4/4L60/4L60E. So many parts... And you can eliminate the TV cable with the 'E' version.

DEEPNHOCK
08-26-2014, 09:24 PM
How many 1964 R2 Hawks were built?
Would driveability outweigh the reduction in collector value that this swap will bring?
Does that mean anything to the current owner?
Does that mean anything to the next owner?
Questions that one should ponder.....

Dick Steinkamp
08-26-2014, 09:26 PM
I would never do that to one.


I kinda figured that, Rich. ;)

rkapteyn
08-26-2014, 09:48 PM
75 R2 1964 Hawks built , 50 Automatic , 25 4 speeds.

Robert Kapteyn

candbstudebakers
08-27-2014, 12:13 AM
75 R2 1964 Hawks built , 50 Automatic , 25 4 speeds.

Robert Kapteyn

And only 3 full package super hawks in this color with the half sport roof 2 power shift and one 4 speed rare ? maybe so I would not make this change in this car.

am not r2
08-27-2014, 06:04 AM
Just thinking out loud here but before you spend your money an email to gear vendors for an overdrive quote might not be a bad idea. Their web site is not all knowing or all telling. Yes it costs up front but it won't show and you keep your powershift. R

JoeHall
08-27-2014, 09:04 AM
The beauty of an 700R/200R ADO conversion is that you need not make any permanent mods to the car. With a 700R you will need to cut about 1.25" off the forward lip on the batwing, where it runs along behind the tranny oil pan. Similarly, with a 200R you will need to replace the batwing (at least the portion between the frame rails) with an aftermarket crossmember to support the rear tranny mount. If you consider that the bat wing is generic to 1954-64 'C' and 'K' bodied cars, that still is not a permanent mod. Alternatively, you could keep the "correct" batwing and just replace it with another 54-64 one, modified for the AOD.

Then, you can store the batwing, powershift tranny, OEM driveshaft, and other misc odds and ends for a future owner, who may want to unbolt the AOD and put the OEM stuff back in. Meanwhile, whether you drive it 1000 or 100,000 miles with the AOD, very mile will be with a smile on your face: better MPG, less motor noise, lower motor temps, less oil consumption, etc..

As for "shift kit" and other mods to hop-up a 700/200 to make it upshift more aggressively, they can actually lead to other problems, i.e. the tapered rear axle breakage/loose hub issue discussed here recently, ripping the three TC bolts loose, etc..
Set the tranny up the way GM designed it and you will experience smooth, positive shifts that are not as likely to destroy other components of the drivetrain. The OEM setup, 700R has accumulated billions of miles in a wide variety of applications, from vans to luxury cars to taxi-cabs, and they work great, as is. However, I understand the 200R needs a little beefing up to use it behind a Stude 259/289, but ym experience is with the 700R, so do not really know about that.

Lou Van Anne
08-27-2014, 12:21 PM
Thanks everyone for your comments...keep 'em coming. I've got to do something soon. Are ALL parts available to rebuild the power shift?

63t-cab
08-27-2014, 06:06 PM
What ever you do must suit You,the nay sayers will bounce back ;)

Thanks everyone for your comments...keep 'em coming. I've got to do something soon. Are ALL parts available to rebuild the power shift?

2R5
08-27-2014, 08:17 PM
Joe , you sure that a 200R would need beefing up ? I have one in a S-10 I own , its a 4.3 with 210 hp , I would think if it can handle that it would handle a stock 289 with little problem.

Dick Steinkamp
08-27-2014, 08:30 PM
Joe , you sure that a 200R would need beefing up ? I have one in a S-10 I own , its a 4.3 with 210 hp , I would think if it can handle that it would handle a stock 289 with little problem.

This article says a stock TH2004R is stronger than a TH700R4 and is good to about 550 HP, but you need to do some tweeks to run 1,000 HP through it...

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/ccrp_0903_th_200_4r_transmission_build/

Studerick64
08-27-2014, 08:37 PM
Lou, I have a powershift that works but leaks already out and waiting for a rebuild. It came out of my 64GT. If you want it let me know.

41 Frank
08-27-2014, 08:42 PM
I like the 200 4R behind my R-2 '41 Champion. Been running it for over a decade and I have not exactly been kind to it at times.<G>

Dick Steinkamp
08-27-2014, 08:55 PM
I like the 200 4R behind my R-2 '41 Champion. Been running it for over a decade and I have not exactly been kind to it at times.<G>

I've seen Frank abuse that poor little Champion ;). Not a pretty sight (if you're in the other lane at the drag strip :()

JoeHall
08-27-2014, 09:26 PM
Before I decided on 700R v. 200R, I did a ton of reading on the internet. I found, just as this NG, there are two, passionate camps: one claims the 700R is better, and the other touts the 200R. Both reference tons of articles to support, which they proffer is solid proof. "Better" has as many definitions as the folks making the claims: shift points, weight, length, max build up potential, etc..

I discovered the 700R was easier to find, with one local for $220 in a wrecked, 80,000 mile van. Having tried a "shift kit" in a TH400 in a 56J, I knew to stay away from them (that one shifted way too harsh, till I put an OEM valve body back in it). So this time I purposely went with a good used, unmolested 700R. I also like that the 700R does not require removal of the bat wing and replacement with an aftermarket cross member, as does the 200R. Between the wife and I, the car now has around 3500 miles with the 700R, and from the first time out the drive way, it has performed flawlessly. Simply can't ask for better.

I did come back later and swap the 3.07 rear end out for a 3.31, which seems a better match for the 700R; a 3.54 would also be a good match. A 3.54 or 3.73 would probably be preferable if I were running a 200R, due to the slightly higher 1st gear and OD. So mating the rear end to whichever tranny is also important.

2R5
08-28-2014, 02:09 PM
All good info , when I'm done with my 2002 S-10 I'll be sure to keep the engine and tranny ( neither have ever had a problem )out of it.;)

wittsend
08-28-2014, 02:46 PM
I'll concur with Post #25 (Joe Hall). I've either read or experienced what he has said. The 700R4 is a lot easier to find. In stock form the 700R4 is stronger, but with upgrade parts I've read the 200R4 can be as strong. So in that regard, the 200R4 may cost more based on rarity and potential upgrade costs. I realize you have a Hawk, but on the "Lark Type" ('64-'66) I did have to modify the bat wing quite a bit for my 700R4.

The 200R4 has more even spaced gear ratios. The 700R4 has slightly better overdrive (as in not as much). Rear ratios and tire size do become a factor. I have the torque of a 350 Chevy engine, but a 3.07 rear, .70 overdrive (700R4), 225-60-16" tires AND the convertor locking up in 4th (overdrive) just make for too low an RPM. Frankly it is liveable even in overdrive - if the convertor doesn't lock. The lock up causes about a 300+ RPM drop. At 45 MPH you are barely off idle at about 1,200 RPM. The problem with turning off the lock up is that it alters the internal oiling in 4th and is a cause of premature failure.

Some have suggested just using 3rd gear for in town and hilly area driving. That helps, but negates the fuel saving of the overdrive and lock up convertor. Additionally I have experienced (and from Google posts a fair number of others too) abrupt downshifting even when slowly coming to a stop in 3rd gear. And, it is significantly more than marginal abrupt. To this end I have resorted to driving around in town in 3rd gear and as I coast to a stop shifting up to 4th gear for the less abrupt downshift. Then, after I stop, I shift back to 3rd gear. It is kind of dyslexic driving and requires one's attention to constantly make it work right.

So, anyway..., yes, make sure you run your ratios and tire sizes through a calculator to make sure you can use the benefits of the transmission upgrade. BTW, I won't go on and on since I have posted this about 10+ times now, but my 700R4 swap was right about $200 for EVERYTHING and that included $40 for new fluid and filter. It was all about the "P's". Patients, Pick Your Part and Perseverance.

PackardV8
08-28-2014, 03:27 PM
I have the torque of a 350 Chevy engine, . . . but my 700R4 swap was right about $200 for EVERYTHING and that included $40 for new fluid and filter. It was all about the "P's". Patients, Pick Your Part and Perseverance.
Not $200 apples to apples, because everything involved is in the U-Pik yard and bolts up to a SBC. More like apples to kumquats in comparing putting a 700R4 behind a Studebaker V8. The adapter and starter alone are $350.


Additionally I have experienced (and from Google posts a fair number of others too) abrupt downshifting even when slowly coming to a stop in 3rd gear. And, it is significantly more than marginal abrupt. To this end I have resorted to driving around in town in 3rd gear and as I coast to a stop shifting up to 4th gear for the less abrupt downshift. Then, after I stop, I shift back to 3rd gear. It is kind of dyslexic driving and requires one's attention to constantly make it work right.

Guess I've been fortunate, because none of my conversions have ever had that problem. The TVC kit from BowTieOverdrives comes with the linkage to fit the AFB, good instructions and a pressure gauge to fine tune the linkage. The list price seems expensive until things don't work right. Then, it's a bargain.
http://www.bowtieoverdrives.com/catalog/catalog.php?Action=GETSUBCAT&CATID=WA3A1

jack vines

wittsend
08-28-2014, 05:04 PM
".... putting a 700R4 behind a Studebaker V8. The adapter and starter alone are $350."

Which is why my "adapter" of choice was a '85 Corvette 350 @ 66,000 miles for $171 off Ebay. LOL. Half the cost of the Studebaker adapter. But, to be fair I'll say $450 for the 700R4 and the "adapter."

Regarding the downshift issues I am not alone. A LOT of people have similar issues. And, if I had 3.54 gears it wouldn't be an issue because I'd just leave it in "D" and not use 3rd.

Lou Van Anne
08-28-2014, 08:18 PM
I have decided to have the old transmission rebuilt here in Stockton. After visiting with the rebuilder several times and inquiring about him around town I'm convinced he knows what he is talking about. Time will tell. Thanks everyone for you input...it was most helpful. By the way, I've renamed her "Money Pit"....my trophy wife...she's beautiful but boy she is expensive!

bezhawk
08-28-2014, 09:29 PM
The bands can be relined for about 12 bucks each, the clutches can be upgraded to racing clutches from an FMX , and Kolene steels are even available. A B&M 34 element sprag can be used as a direct replacement. The torque converter can be rebuilt for less than 130 (around here). The friction and seal kit is around 140. Hard parts can still be had from SI, Fatsco, and Northwest Transmission Parts.
Rebuilding procedures , it's one of the most simple transmissions ever made. Unless you want an overdrive, that's a different subject.

bezhawk
09-30-2014, 08:26 PM
digging up this old thread I just found the 700r4 lock up kit that I have installed in the past. The customer was very happy with the results, and installation is a snap.

http://bowlertransmissions.com/Content/Reference/LockUpModules/700R4ControlModuleInststructions.pdf

JoeHall
09-30-2014, 08:39 PM
Bez,
I like that kit. It is same as the TCI version I used, except for the 8-10 second delayed TC lockup, whereas with the TCI, lockup occurs immediately upon up-shift to 4th. However, mine goes into 4th at 45-55 MPH under light/medium throttle, and I have never tested it under heavy throttle, but maybe 75 MPH. So, what I am saying is, usually the TC is not under strain when lockup occurs.

Strain occurs later, at sustained speeds of 70-75 on hills and/or strong head winds. Under those conditions, if motor manifold vacuum drops below around 6 inches, it will break away. If it was wired so as not to break away under load, the TC clutch would slip, and burn out pretty quickly.

Still, if I had it to do over, I'd chose the one you used, but would not pull the pan just to install one.

Lou Van Anne
09-30-2014, 09:59 PM
The deed has been done, the old transmission has been rebuilt...to the tune of $2300.00 w/parts. At least she is now finally roadworthy, I hope...just waiting for the other shoe to drop. I guess I should think of her as my "trophy wife"...beautiful, but high maintenance.