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pbrown
06-25-2014, 02:00 PM
I have a 1959 Silver Hawk that started life as a 6. The previous owner put a 1964 Studebaker 289 and Flightomatic in it. It is my “keeper”, so I put Turner discs on it and had the interior reupholstered.

I have also acquired enough parts out of 2 cars to build a 1957 Silver Hawk. I have purchased a 1989 Pontiac (aka SBC) 305 with 700R4 to put in it. I would play with that completed 1957 Silver Hawk for a while and then sell it.

But I have been thinking that maybe I am doing this backward…some info:
I value some things about having a modern engine/tranny (no ethanol problems, no ZDDP, fuel injection, first gear start, overdrive, local parts availability)

My 59 will never be original as it already has the “wrong” V8 engine in it.

My 59 may also need a future AC compressor (slow leak of Freon), and if I ever want to add power steering will require custom bracketry,


So I’ve begun to wonder if I should put the 305 (which has an AC compressor and PS pump) into my 59, and move the 289 to the project car.

So I’ll solicit opinions - if I value those things I listed above, should my keeper be the one that gets the 305?

The one opinion that won’t be helpful is “get rid of that 305 and keep both all Studebaker”:yeahright:…Neither will ever be an original example, so in this case being “all Studebaker” is not a winning argument in my book.

Helpful comments would be:
monetary comments like "the value of a 57 with a Stude engine is double/half that of one with a SBC, so that would/wouldn't be the smart way to do it"

or technical comments like "the 2 piece drive shaft on the 57 would be much easier/harder to adapt to the output of the 700R4"


So, which car gets what?

Mike Van Veghten
06-25-2014, 02:08 PM
To me...the 305 is a "no deal", deal. In general...the small Chevy is a great engine. They wouldn't have made so many, for so long if it wasn't, but the 305....leave the 289 in the car.
Also, I had a 700-R4 in a car for a few years, I would NOT own another. The gear ratio spread (1st to 2nd) is horrible.

Why do people worry about the oil....!? Just use good oil..! Again...my 259 runs just fine on a diet of Castrol GTX, 20-50..my only car...as in daily driver..has for over 12 years (14 I think..!).

Fuel...swap fuel fo oil in the above statement. Put an electric fuel pump on it and just drive it.

Mike

PackardV8
06-25-2014, 02:16 PM
There's no correct answer. The value of a modified car is totally dependent upon the skill and good taste of the builder. The more original the car, the easier it is for a potential buyer to make a decision on condition.

That your Silver Hawk has a V8 and thus is no longer original is a bit of a cop-out IMHO. The same year was available with a V8. Don't feel the need to justify why it's now OK to change; just do it the way you want.


and if I ever want to add power steering will require custom bracketry,
Don't understand this. The PS brackets for the V8 are thick on the ground.

Your car, your money, your decision.

jack vines

Dick Steinkamp
06-25-2014, 03:10 PM
My experience has been that there is a much bigger market for a SBC powered Stude than a Stude powered Stude. Bigger market = more demand and higher price for an otherwise identical car. That assumes, of course, a proper conversion and not some cobbed up job. I'm not talking about the market within the SDC or this forum. I mean the entire old car hobby.

My experience also is that it is not as easy as it sounds to put a SBC in a Stude...especially a C/K. All kinds of "gotchas"...motor and trans mount, drive shaft and yoke, exhaust headers, throttle, cooling, motor position, trans linkage, pinion angle, crossmembers, wiring, There are more failed and incomplete swaps out there then there are ones on the road.

Swifster
06-25-2014, 03:40 PM
I'm not against swaps, but the 305 and 267 V8's were the biggest turds Chevy every made. As for power steering, it should be pretty easy to locate the correct parts. As for the compressor, I'd just get a Sanden unit. If you're going to put an engine in the '57, get a 327 or a 350 for it. Heck, a 4.3L V6 would be better than a 305.

As for the 700R4/4L60, these are fine transmissions. 4L60E's are not that hard to set up either.

64studeavanti
06-25-2014, 03:54 PM
in my opinion, in the long run, the best return on investment for the post war Studes are just like for other makes. The prestige models such as Speedsters, Hawks and Avantis should be as close to original as possible. For the Larks etc, which are much more plentiful and not generally admired outside of the Studebaker community it probably doesn't matter. That being said, for at least the short term, some resto mods are bringing pretty good money.

EssexExport
06-25-2014, 03:56 PM
As said earlier, the 289 was available as an option. Even going with the 305 doesn't sound so drastic. Have a Prowler friend that put a 6.1 hemi in his. Now that's drastic.

SN-60
06-25-2014, 04:04 PM
The Chevy 305 CI is an excellent street engine, and that 700R4 trans is definitely a good choice too! I've been driving that same combination in an '83 Avanti for twenty years....very dependable, and easy on gas!....Good luck!

Pat Dilling
06-25-2014, 04:28 PM
The Chevy 305 CI is an excellent street engine, and that 700R4 trans is definitely a good choice too! I've been driving that same combination in an '83 Avanti for twenty years....very dependable, and easy on gas!....Good luck!

If you put the 305 700R4 in you can tell folks it has an Avanti drive train :rolleyes: ;) :ohmy:

Dick Steinkamp
06-25-2014, 05:16 PM
Here's my 305/TH350 Lark. The combo was out of a low mile mid 70's pickup. It was a low HP (150 HP 2 barrel). My only change was dual exhaust and a 4 bbl.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sYaN0lYzfE

Not super fast, but hardly a turd.

http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww63/dstnkmp/63%20Daytona%20done/PP039.jpg

sweetolbob
06-25-2014, 06:28 PM
IIRC the 89 engines are usually TPI or TBI. If your's is are you planning to run it with the ECM or convert to Carb. Transplanting a ECM controlled engine is a bit of a job but the reward is a good running good mileage engine. I'm not so down on the 700 as my 54K has a TPI SBC with a new chip in it and a 700R4. It's actually a nice street/highway combo. Mine is a 350 however.

A conversion to a carb setup could raise the cost of the conversion.

Good luck, Bob

JoeHall
06-25-2014, 06:39 PM
"Best" between 700R and 200R is subjective, and involves several dependent variables. I prefaced the swap in the wife's GT with a ton of reading on the internet: if $ is important, a good, used 700R can be had cheap, since they are thick on the ground; lots of wrecked, low mileage V8 utility vehicles with them. If you insist on rebuilt, cores are plentiful, and cheaper to rebuild, since they don't need many upgrades. Got mine used, plug & play, from a 1992, 3/4T van, with 84,000 miles on it, for $220.

With 200R, finding a good used one is difficult since most came in sporty cars. Even if you find an excellent used one, it is not gonna fit the bill behind a Stude V8, since it will need to be "built up" stronger than OEM, to the tune of about $1500 and up. Unless you get one out of a Buick GN, and that ain't gonna be cheap either. Cores are not as plentiful either.

Gear ratios and gaps are relative to the rear end gears: a 3.07 makes a 700R almost too high geared, from 1st through OD. After about 3000 miles on the wife's GT with a 700R & 3.07, I plan to swap a 3.31 in for just that reason. A 3.54 is middle of the road, and should work equally well with either. Any higher than 3.54, i.e. 3.73 and the 200R begins to shine and the 700R begins to dull.

As for installation, a 700R fit the wife's 63GT with NO modifications to the bottom sheet metal, and only required removal of about 1" from the front side of the bat wing, behind the oil pan. A 200R woulda required major surgery on the bat wing, with the part between the frame rails replaced by an adapter.

From the first time out the driveway till now, the 700R has done exactly what its supposed to, and very well. A $1500-2500, 200R may be a "best" for some, but the $220, 700R is fitting the bill nicely in the GT :)

jclary
06-25-2014, 06:49 PM
Well...I'm not going to push you one way or another about what power plant you use. It is your vehicle, your money, and you should enjoy it your way.

However, if you end up with a good running 289 or 259 V8 that is lying on the garage floor in your way...I'll be very happy to haul it away for you. After having the original flat 6 in my C-cab I have owned for four decades...I'm ready to explore how much fun a V8 would be. I already have an overdrive unit, V8 radiator, truck water manifold and intake. A CASO deal on an engine would be the icing on the cake.:!:

rkapteyn
06-25-2014, 06:55 PM
I have a TBI with a SDC pushing up past the ECM up the butt of 5 different and
disunited Caso's.TBI.

Robert Kapteyn

JoeHall
06-25-2014, 07:01 PM
Well...I'm not going to push you one way or another about what power plant you use. It is your vehicle, your money, and you should enjoy it your way.

However, if you end up with a good running 289 or 259 V8 that is lying on the garage floor in your way...I'll be very happy to haul it away for you. After having the original flat 6 in my C-cab I have owned for four decades...I'm ready to explore how much fun a V8 would be. I already have an overdrive unit, V8 radiator, truck water manifold and intake. A CASO deal on an engine would be the icing on the cake.:!:
I bet a lot of folks have went from Stude 6 to V8, and never went back. But I doubt many have went from V8 to 6, and never went back.

JoeHall
06-25-2014, 07:02 PM
I have a TBI with a SDC pushing up past the ECM up the butt of 5 different and
disunited Caso's.TBI.

Robert Kapteyn

What does that mean?

Pancho
06-25-2014, 10:53 PM
I had many old parts I sold in bulk to a friend who is an engine builder. The 305 parts went straight out of the bed of my truck and into the scrap metal bin.

StudeRich
06-26-2014, 01:23 AM
There are many of us unlike Mike V.V that "BELIEVE" in using an adequate amount of ZDDP in our Oil as Valvoline admits is needed and is in Valvoline VR1 Racing or ZDDPlus additive.

In that case Phillip, it will make no difference if you use a Chev. Engine or a Stude. you will NOT get around the need for ZDDP since IMHO, all Flat Tappet Engines, even your Lawn Mower need it!
They have no Roller Cam, Roller Lifters or Overhead Cam.

And those that say they have been using Brand X Oil for many, many years with no problem, have not driven those cars long enough since the needed additives were removed in I believe, Nov. 2007 to report on the damage to the Cam, and Lifters.

parts
06-26-2014, 01:44 AM
Having just replaced the Comp 267 in my 53 Coupe..350 SBC .. I would suggest Valvoline racing oil. My XK120 w/350 I built,,has always used Valvoline VR1 or similar.. No problems. The Stude is the first car I bought and di not build myself..so I don't know what was used for the first 30K miles..just the last 6K.
I just got it back on road..did by the book cam break in etc..
The faliure wasa rounded lobe that eventually broke a PUSHROD. The lifter was 1/4" concave on bottom. After throughly cleaning the lower end..and luckily finding metal/paste only in the filter (WIX !)..

Now at 400 mikes and will be doing 1st oil/filter change. Cheap protection..

I like my carb 350 with 4L60e converted to 700R with manual lockup switch. But if I do another project (I have a 75 280Z bought new that is very nice..but motor tired) the carb 350 will go in the Z. A LS motor swap is what I would prefer..but we'll see. My 53 runs so well now..and the MPG isn't bad..and Arizona is quite easy on cars. Especially with two to alternate and maybe a third..

pbrown
06-26-2014, 07:02 AM
Thanks for the 19 posts so far, but we seem to have digressed into a discussion of 350 vs 305 and 700R vs 200R

While the opinions are interesting, only a few have really addressed my question.

Let me boil it down a bit further:

I currently own two engine/transmission combos, a Stude 289/flightomatic and a Pontiac fuel injected TPI 305/700R4. Regardless of how much better a 350/200R4 may be, that’s what I own

I also own two autos, a 1959 Silver Hawk (that I will keep) and a 1957 Silver Hawk (that I will sell)

I have in the past flirted with the idea of a 700R4 transplant into my keeper, and in addition I do not attach tremendous value to keeping the Studebaker engine in my keeper and thought this might be an opportunity to get a transmission swap with out paying $400 for Stude engine adapters, because I'd be bringing the GM engine with it,

The question is “Which engine/transmission combo goes in which car, and why?”

Thanks for the 19 posts so far

pbrown
06-26-2014, 07:04 AM
it will make no difference if you use a Chev. Engine or a Stude. you will NOT get around the need for ZDDP since IMHO, all Flat Tappet Engines, even your Lawn Mower need it!

Thanks for this. I never thought about ZDDP until I came to the world of Studes.

64studeavanti
06-26-2014, 07:18 AM
IMHO, I would put the Stude 289 engine in the 57 as I think that would have the most value. The largest engine in the 59 was 259 and is most likely less desirable from a collector point of view. Since you plan on keeping the 59, why not enjoy the pluses from having a more modern drive train.

pbrown
06-26-2014, 07:49 AM
I had many old parts I sold in bulk to a friend who is an engine builder. The 305 parts went straight out of the bed of my truck and into the scrap metal bin.

I believe this entirely. If you are going to build an engine, it would be stupid to start with a 305. The value of a 305 is only if you buy it complete and running and never plan to modify it.

pbrown
06-26-2014, 07:50 AM
IMHO, I would put the Stude 289 engine in the 57 as I think that would have the most value. The largest engine in the 59 was 259 and is most likely less desirable from a collector point of view. Since you plan on keeping the 59, why not enjoy the pluses from having a more modern drive train.

Thank you! That is exactly the type of response I was soliciting!

Dick Steinkamp
06-26-2014, 09:02 AM
I think if you put the TPI 305/700R4 into the 57 and drive it, you'll end up keeping the 57 and selling the 59. :)

Which ever car you put it in, make sure to make a plan and budget for the switch. Think through all the possible changes that need to be made, which of them you can do yourself and which need to be farmed out, and the parts needed. Some of us here that have done similar conversions can help you with the plan/budget.

t walgamuth
06-26-2014, 10:05 AM
I'd put a Mercedes 617 turbodiesel in it!

(just kidding).

pbrown
06-26-2014, 10:25 AM
I think if you put the TPI 305/700R4 into the 57 and drive it, you'll end up keeping the 57 and selling the 59. :)

Which ever car you put it in, make sure to make a plan and budget for the switch. Think through all the possible changes that need to be made, which of them you can do yourself and which need to be farmed out, and the parts needed. Some of us here that have done similar conversions can help you with the plan/budget.

Thanks for the offer Dick.

I bought the engine and transmission from a company that disassembles late model Camaros/Firebirds and sells the parts. They also race Camaros, so they have a fair amount of mechanical savvy from building their race cars.

I struck a package deal that not only included the engine/transmission( and any other needed parts from the running 1989 Formula WS6 Firbird donor car), but also included installation of said parts into a Hawk.

I have to pay for any needed parts that they can’t scavenge from the donor. So far I have bought Slick Street’s motor mounts and a Lokar shifter rod assembly.

I’d be curious as to what else you think they will need?

pbrown
06-26-2014, 10:25 AM
I'd put a Mercedes 617 turbodiesel in it!

(just kidding).

If I could I would - I love low end torque!

pbrown
06-26-2014, 11:35 AM
And so I don't hijack my own “Which engine/transmission combo goes in which car, and why?” thread, I've started a new one in the tech forum:

"Why I picked a 305 instead of a 350"

gordr
06-26-2014, 11:37 AM
Well, if you are changing the engine just because you need a bracket for a power steering pump, that, IMHO, is a pretty lame reason. Brackets are easy to make. The big issue with power steering in a Studebaker is the business end. Either you use the clumsy-looking Bendix linkage type, with all the little hoses, or you do extensive mods to mount a rack and pinion unit or some sort of in-box power unit. Neither course is easy.

I don't see a problem with the 305 and 700R4. That combo has worked fine in thousands of GM cars and pickups. The 305 is a "lesser" engine than the 350, in terms of raw power, but I don't think it's any less reliable. If you plan to keep the car that way, go for it. If you plan to sell the modified car, probably a 350 would be easier to sell.

SScopelli
06-26-2014, 11:46 AM
Here's my 305/TH350 Lark. The combo was out of a low mile mid 70's pickup. It was a low HP (150 HP 2 barrel). My only change was dual exhaust and a 4 bbl.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sYaN0lYzfE

Not super fast, but hardly a turd.

http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww63/dstnkmp/63%20Daytona%20done/PP039.jpg

Nice of you to come back and pick up your secondary camera man. :cool:

You going to add what gear ratio you have in it? 3:73s?

Dick Steinkamp
06-26-2014, 11:56 AM
I’d be curious as to what else you think they will need?

Custom trans mount cross member and trans mount
Custom driveshaft and front yoke (I forget when Stude changed from the two piece shaft to a one piece. If one piece, you could be OK but the tunnel may still need modification for the driveshaft and/or transmission)
Pinion angle set
Not sure if TV cable is necessary with a TPI/computer controlled motor/transmission
O2 sensors and bungs in exhaust
Custom exhaust system (including a custom exhaust header for the tight left side)
Throttle linkage
Radiator (a stock V8 C/K radiator should work if you have a good one)
Electric fan(s) and/or modified shroud for the mechanical fan
modified or custom air cleaner
Wiring changes for just about everything.
Computer and sensor position and hook up
Coolant/heater hoses
Heater if you are not using the stock one (maybe not needed in Florida?)
AC and PS hook up (depending on which car you install the SBC in)
If serpentine belt system, is there room without relocating the radiator?
Room at the rear for the HEI?
New gauges or adapting the existing gauges/sending units to work
Speedo adapter (if electronic on the TH700 it gets tougher)

Others like Sweetolbob that have also done this swap may have other ideas to contribute.

My GUESS is that if you are having a shop do all the work, you won't be able to get your money back if you have the SBC installed in the 57 and then sell it.

Dick Steinkamp
06-26-2014, 12:00 PM
You going to add what gear ratio you have in it? 3:73s?

3.31 open. Good compromise with the TH350 with no OD

pbrown
06-26-2014, 12:34 PM
Well, if you are changing the engine just because you need a bracket for a power steering pump, that, IMHO, is a pretty lame reason.

No, the PS bracket is but one of a number of reasons. I put together a spreadsheet to help me:



Pro


Use Modern Gas


No Oil additive needed


Alternator instead of Generator


AC Compressor that doesn't leak


Power Steering Pump already installed


Electronic Ignition


Fuel Injection


ODB diagnostics


Increased torque/horsepower


First gear start


Overdrive


Local Parts Availability

sweetolbob
06-26-2014, 12:35 PM
Custom trans mount cross member and trans mount
Custom driveshaft and front yoke (I forget when Stude changed from the two piece shaft to a one piece. If one piece, you could be OK but the tunnel may still need modification for the driveshaft and/or transmission)
Pinion angle set
Not sure if TV cable is necessary with a TPI/computer controlled motor/transmission
O2 sensors and bungs in exhaust
Custom exhaust system (including a custom exhaust header for the tight left side)
Throttle linkage
Radiator (a stock V8 C/K radiator should work if you have a good one)
Electric fan(s) and/or modified shroud for the mechanical fan
modified or custom air cleaner
Wiring changes for just about everything.
Computer and sensor position and hook up
Coolant/heater hoses
Heater if you are not using the stock one (maybe not needed in Florida?)
AC and PS hook up (depending on which car you install the SBC in)
If serpentine belt system, is there room without relocating the radiator?
Room at the rear for the HEI?
New gauges or adapting the existing gauges/sending units to work
Speedo adapter (if electronic on the TH700 it gets tougher)

Others like Sweetolbob that have also done this swap may have other ideas to contribute.

My GUESS is that if you are having a shop do all the work, you won't be able to get your money back if you have the SBC installed in the 57 and then sell it.

As usual Dick has done a very comprehensive job of describing the changes necessary. I'll add a couple of things. Your set up should have a TV cable installed and it will work as is.

Secondly, you will need to get a chip burned to remove the VATS and EGR from your ECM. You can start here for parts but Google can be your friend also for what you need. http://www.tpiparts.net/catalog You can get a variety of programs for engine control so just talk to whomever you get the chip from as to your needs. Just to be sure, you don't need to replace the ECM just the chip inside it.

I used a 65 Chevy Impala drive shaft but those are probably getting hard to find. A trip to your PNP should get you a drive shaft of the correct length. Remember length is the important number, U-joints can be purchased to adapt what you need . The trans adapter to use your existing speedo shaft is a mechanical one from an OEM 700R4. Your's is probably an electronic sender but the mechanical one is a direct fit as you have a 4L60 which is just a later designation for the 700R4.

I literally took A Firebird engine/body harness, stripped out the un-necessary wires, and used it to power the engine and whatever I needed inside the car. There are about three to four points that need power and the harness doesn't know what it is in. Or care for that matter.

That about covers what I can think of to add to Dick's list but as you go just ask about your needs.

Bob

pbrown
06-26-2014, 02:19 PM
Thanks Dick and Bob, that should prove very helpful!

t walgamuth
06-26-2014, 03:00 PM
If I could I would - I love low end torque!

Oh, it'd fit.;)

gordr
06-26-2014, 03:12 PM
Sorry, Phil. I read your initial post as meaning the steering pump bracket was a major issue.

Green53
06-26-2014, 04:55 PM
My 53 has a 350 Chevy with a TH350. 74 Nova subframe made an easy install as ps and ac did not require reengineering. This has worked for me for 18 years

Denny L