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GThawkwind
01-22-2014, 01:21 PM
I'm keeping an eye out for stuff to stash away for the 53 and spotted a pair of good factory disc brakes for 100 bucks on the swap page. Do they sell caliper rebuild kits for these? Are they really expensive to maintain? I know alot of people with factory disc kits switch to a turner, which makes me wonder are they any good? Or were mostly a cool factory stunt? There is something cool about using factory disc brakes in a hot rod build, but if I'd just be better of with finned drums or saving up for a turner kit, then thats what I'll do. While I'm at does anyone have some cheaper or better than the ones mentioned. Mostly just wanted to know what the best bang for not alot of buck.

rockinhawk
01-22-2014, 01:31 PM
I have them on the GT and 81 Avanti II. I like them and they work fine. But if I was gonna go to the trouble to change anything over, I would use the Turner system for the modern parts availability.

Dick Steinkamp
01-22-2014, 01:35 PM
My opinion is that Stude (Bendix/Dunlop) disc brakes work fine and probably stop as well as more modern disc brakes. I have them on all 4 wheels of my Daimler (stock) and the car stops with a new one.

In terms of cost effectiveness...not so much. Once you buy all 4 new caliper pistons, pads, and cross over pipes you would have probably paid for a Turner conversion. Then you need the correct master cylinder and booster and the correct Bendix 11" non self energizing rear brakes.

Your least expensive option is probably to find a good set of 54 and up drums. Then add new MC and wheel cylinders, new shoes, new flex hoses and hard lines.

I advise you NOT to mix and match brake parts or "invent" your own system. Use a complete stock system OR if you go with a Turner system, buy EVERYTHING Jim recommends.

sweetolbob
01-22-2014, 01:55 PM
If you rebuild the system and it serves you well than you are ahead. SI has the rebuild kits for $26/pr and brake pads for $26/set. So the initial cost is not bad. The problem comes if you need to replace the rotors $197/ea and calipers $90/ea, so you can judge.

The Turner kit costs $679 for the deluxe setup ready to go. IIRC that is the complete install setup including bearings, hoses, adapters, loaded pads/calipers and rotors.

You "MIGHT" be able to cut that back by $50 or so with judicious shopping.

You'll probably have $150-200 or so on top of the $100 cost for the setup on the swap page as you'll want to add the rebuild kit, pads, hoses and bearings.

Only you can judge how the cost will effect the decision but there is no guarantee that the used rotors are usable or the calipers are rebuildable.

I personally would go Turner for the long term ease of finding parts and the newer technology but the Stude system stops cars so the final decision is up to you.

I'm with Dick S. on the mix and match, go one way or the other completely.

Either will work, Bob

Gunslinger
01-22-2014, 02:09 PM
One also has to look at the brake system in terms of the times it was developed and its design roots.

Against contemporary cars, the Dunlop/Bendix disc brakes are excellent. Against modern cars...the design is still good but it needs to be in top shape to stop with modern cars.

Looking at the design history, when Studebaker tasked Bendix with supplying a completely engineered and in production disc brake system, they also wanted it ready to go in a matter of only a few months. Bendix licensed the system from Dunlop who had been using it for several years on Jaguars and maybe a few other cars.

While an effective system, it was designed for cars much lighter than Avantis, Larks and Hawks. It's more or less at the upper limits of its capabilities on our cars...but it's still effective and better than other American made cars of its era.

As already said, it's not cost effective today unless you get all the parts very, very inexpensively. Once you get into it and find you need more and more parts, the Turner kit makes so much more sense.

plwindish
01-22-2014, 02:10 PM
If you have not inherited the Dunlop system on any of your vehicles, I would buy the Turner set-up. As mentioned above the rotors and calipers are not cheap. I would rather put the money into newer, more readily available parts.

Packard8
01-22-2014, 02:33 PM
Not sure if compatible, however many Jag XK150/XKE owners have replaced the Dunlop calipers with ones off of Volvos, as they are inexpensive and plentiful used or rebuilt.

http://jag2jag.com/group/xkworkshopgroup/forum/topics/brakes?commentId=4513697%3AComment%3A40907&groupId=4513697%3AGroup%3A12773

Might be worth looking into?

warrlaw1
01-22-2014, 03:05 PM
I'm switching to a Turner kit from my front drums just because they use modern parts (that will eventually wear out). Supposed to be a simple bolt in job that my garage next door can probably accomplish. They screwed up the adjustment on my master cylinder and my brakes dragged for a summer, but I'll give 'em another chance with the Turner kit. An under the floor MC confuses people not born more than 50 years ago, but now that they have learned that lesson at my expense, we'll see what happens. Good luck.

R_David
01-22-2014, 04:01 PM
If I was going to turn my Hawk into a daily driver I would probably do the turner conversion for the reasons listed above. But since I only put 1000-2000 miles a year on the old girl, I just don't worry about it. It really depends on what your end goal is for the car.

SN-60
01-22-2014, 05:53 PM
Original Studebaker Bendix-Dunlop disc brakes....high maintenance and problematic in everyday use....really only practical on a Stude show car that has had them from new. Go with something like a Turner system, or just maintain the original drum brakes, which are actually pretty darn good!

Starlight
01-22-2014, 06:12 PM
Hot rods and brakes also has an excellent kit for front disk setup, cheaper then Turner too......Keep on Studebakering

bezhawk
01-22-2014, 06:13 PM
Original Studebaker Bendix-Dunlop disc brakes....high maintenance and problematic in everyday use....really only practical on a Stude show car that has had them from new. Go with something like a Turner system, or just maintain the original drum brakes, which are actually pretty darn good!They would work great in a pickup filled with Packard engines, and ultramatics!:lol:

StudeDave57
01-22-2014, 06:13 PM
Original Studebaker Bendix-Dunlop disc brakes....high maintenance and problematic in everyday use....
really only practical on a Stude show car that has had them from new.
I have something like 220,000 miles on my '65 Cruiser so equipped.
Over 20 years of daily use I never noticed that my disc brakes were high maintenance or problematic.
Could you please explain what on Earth you are talking about?

I also towed a trailer up and down the West Coast a few times, as well as Coast to Coast twice,
but that's a completely different topic. :ohmy: :rolleyes: :D




StudeDave '57 :cool:

SN-60
01-22-2014, 06:17 PM
They would work great in a pickup filled with Packard engines, and ultramatics!:lol:

Yes!............right over a cliff!!!!!!

SN-60
01-22-2014, 06:43 PM
I have something like 220,000 miles on my '65 Cruiser so equipped.
Over 20 years of daily use I never noticed that my disc brakes were high maintenance or problematic.
Could you please explain what on Earth you are talking about?

I also towed a trailer up and down the West Coast a few times, as well as Coast to Coast twice,
but that's a completely different topic. :ohmy: :rolleyes: :D




StudeDave '57 :cool:

Okay, okay, Dave You're RIGHT!......And I haven't the SLIGHTEST IDEA why the auto industry upgraded to ventilated rotors, sliding calipers, and large 'kidney shaped' disc brake pads. NO idea whatsoever!! ;)

PackardV8
01-22-2014, 06:48 PM
[B][FONT=Comic Sans MS] I have something like 220,000 miles on my '65 Cruiser so equipped.
Over 20 years of daily use I never noticed that my disc brakes were high maintenance or problematic.
Could you please explain what on Earth you are talking about?

I also towed a trailer up and down the West Coast a few times, as well as Coast to Coast twice,
but that's a completely different topic. :ohmy: :rolleyes: :D

X2 on no problems. Toyota, Jaguar, Aston Martin, Ferrari and many others used essentially the same system. They're not high maintenance or problematic.

FWIW, flushing the fluids every 2-3 years on any collector car will go a long way toward keeping the brakes and cooling system in good working condition.

jack vines

StudeDave57
01-22-2014, 06:59 PM
Okay, okay, Dave You're RIGHT!......And I haven't the SLIGHTEST IDEA why the auto industry upgraded to ventilated rotors, sliding calipers, and large 'kidney shaped' disc brake pads. NO idea whatsoever!! ;)

I don't understand- those sound like improvements to me.

What do they have to do with Studebaker's "high maintenance and/or problematic" disc brakes? :confused:



StudeDave '57 :cool:

Packard8
01-22-2014, 07:20 PM
I have something like 220,000 miles on my '65 Cruiser so equipped.
Over 20 years of daily use I never noticed that my disc brakes were high maintenance or problematic.
Could you please explain what on Earth you are talking about?

I also towed a trailer up and down the West Coast a few times, as well as Coast to Coast twice,
but that's a completely different topic. :ohmy: :rolleyes: :D




StudeDave '57 :cool:

I currently have 3 cars with the Bendix/Dunlop brakes and have had no problems:confused:. The Avanti R2 was a daily driver for 4 years and 70K+ miles.

SN-60
01-22-2014, 07:58 PM
QUESTION....Does anyone out there know why Jim Turner spent a lot of time (and probably a few bucks) designing a modern disc brake system for Avantis and other Studebakers? A system that I understand He's sold quite a few sets of over the years? Can anyone out there explain to Me why that Gentleman bothered to do that, when the original Stude/Dunlop design was so 'perfect'? Inquiring minds want to know! :confused:

rockinhawk
01-22-2014, 08:04 PM
QUESTION....Does anyone out there know why Jim Turner spent a lot of time (and probably a few bucks) designing a modern disc brake system for Avantis and other Studebakers? A system that I understand He's sold quite a few sets of over the years? Can anyone out there explain to Me why that Gentleman bothered to do that, when the original Stude/Dunlop design was so 'perfect'? Inquiring minds want to know! :confused:Because the parts were gtting in short supply and expensive.

And Jim is a super nice guy.

SN-60
01-22-2014, 08:07 PM
Because the parts were gtting in short supply and expensive.

Not really true about the short supply anymore, but You're definitely right about the Bendix/Dunlop parts being pricey.....but,..........do You REALLY feel that's the ONLY reason?

studebaker-R2-4-me
01-22-2014, 08:37 PM
Original Studebaker Bendix-Dunlop disc brakes....high maintenance and problematic in everyday use....really only practical on a Stude show car that has had them from new. Go with something like a Turner system, or just maintain the original drum brakes, which are actually pretty darn good!
Wow that is pretty harsh. My 64 Hawk stops on a dime with Dunlop Discs. I drive my hawk daily in the summer no maintenance for 7 years. This past summer I changed pad and found one caliper shot after pressing the pad to remove it. Only good for a show car? To answer the question for your 53 if you managed to get a really clean Bendix set up it would be worth your time to buy it. I personally would have to take them apart before I bought them. The calipers are expensive for 1964 technology. Your 53 will be better off in the long run the the Turner System. I faced this same dilemma when I chose the Turner system for my 63 Lark over bad used calipers I bought and wasted my money on at a swap meet.

Allen

SN-60
01-22-2014, 08:37 PM
I don't understand- those sound like improvements to me.

What do they have to do with Studebaker's "high maintenance and/or problematic" disc brakes? :confused:



StudeDave '57 :cool:

Dave, I don't understand......Why would the auto manufacturers want to 'improve' on a brake that You have said IS NOT 'high maintenance or problematic'? Please explain.:confused::confused:

David
01-22-2014, 08:42 PM
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d148/64granturismo/StudeRapier/100_4070_zpsd3a5522f.jpg (http://s34.photobucket.com/user/64granturismo/media/StudeRapier/100_4070_zpsd3a5522f.jpg.html)

I had mine rebuilt White Post. I'm glad I did.

SN-60
01-22-2014, 08:45 PM
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d148/64granturismo/StudeRapier/100_4070_zpsd3a5522f.jpg (http://s34.photobucket.com/user/64granturismo/media/StudeRapier/100_4070_zpsd3a5522f.jpg.html)

I had mine rebuilt White Post. I'm glad I did.

Stainless steel sleeves eh? Not a bad idea with those cylinders. (or ANY obsolete cylinders really)

Matthew Wendt
01-22-2014, 09:23 PM
I have a 67 Avanti with Studebaker brakes including new calipers, in spec rotors, and silicone fluid. Also new correct master cylinder (no residual pressure valve as appropriate) and all new lines and hoses. They work good about twice or maybe three times in hard use and then they fade away.

I would not consider using them unless on a car being kept original. They are also tedious to shim properly, and on my Avanti they occasionally squeak. Can't figure out why. I have a 64 R2 GT with them also, I am only keeping them for originality. Your experience may vary.

studebaker-R2-4-me
01-22-2014, 09:29 PM
Stainless steel sleeves eh? Not a bad idea with those cylinders. (or ANY obsolete cylinders really)

Geeesh who took a leak in your Cornflakes. Now my stock Dunlop's are obsolete? Why not just Come out and say it to all the forum that Studebaker's and the hobby are obsolete.
Your argument over the stock Dunlop's and modern calipers with vented rotors is flawed like comparing apples and oranges.

Allen



Allen

SN-60
01-22-2014, 09:38 PM
[QUOTE=studebaker-R2-4-me;815397]Geeesh who took a leak in your Cornflakes. Now my stock Dunlop's are obsolete? Why not just Come out and say it to all the forum that Studebaker's and the hobby are obsolete.
Your argument over the stock Dunlop's and modern calipers with vented rotors is flawed like comparing apples and oranges.

Allen



Uh-Oh!....You mean I'll be driving to work in an obsolete car tomorrow? YIKES!:QQ:

Packard8
01-22-2014, 09:39 PM
QUESTION....Does anyone out there know why Jim Turner spent a lot of time (and probably a few bucks) designing a modern disc brake system for Avantis and other Studebakers? A system that I understand He's sold quite a few sets of over the years? Can anyone out there explain to Me why that Gentleman bothered to do that, when the original Stude/Dunlop design was so 'perfect'? Inquiring minds want to know! :confused:

I have no way of knowing, but my guess is that most of the Turner disc conversions are sold to replace drum brakes. A very small percentage of Studebakers came with disc brakes....only standard on Avantis and and a rare option on Hawks and Larks. It would be interesting to know how many Avantis, Hawks and Larks factory equipped with the disc brakes have been converted to Turner or other conversions.

Automotive engineering is an evolving craft. A modern Chevy 650 HP LSx engine is an evolution of the 1954 SBC, Current 6 piston Brembo discs are an evolution of the 1950's Dunlop design.........the old Chebby 265's and the old Dunlop/Bendix brakes still do the job as intended.

SN-60
01-22-2014, 09:52 PM
I have no way of knowing, but my guess is that most of the Turner disc conversions are sold to replace drum brakes. A very small percentage of Studebakers came with disc brakes....only standard on Avantis and and a rare option on Hawks and Larks. It would be interesting to know how many Avantis, Hawks and Larks factory equipped with the disc brakes have been converted to Turner or other conversions.

Automotive engineering is an evolving craft. A modern Chevy 650 HP LSx engine is an evolution of the 1954 SBC, Current 6 piston Bembro discs are an evolution of the 1950's Dunlop design.........the old Chebby 265's and the old Dunlop/Bendix brakes still do the job as intended.

Actually, although the Turner system will fit many drum brake Studes....He first offered it to help Avanti owners stop their high performance cars! In use, the Bendix/Dunlop brake has turned out to be woefully inadequate for everyday driving. As someone said in another post....the Bendix/Dunlop brake was designed for use on cars much lighter than our Studebakers. Sorry folks...but that's a fact!:eek:

Packard8
01-22-2014, 10:26 PM
Actually, although the Turner system will fit many drum brake Studes....He first offered it to help Avanti owners stop their high performance cars! In use, the Bendix/Dunlop brake has turned out to be woefully inadequate for everyday driving. As someone said in another post....the Bendix/Dunlop brake was designed for use on cars much lighter than our Studebakers. Sorry folks...but that's a fact!:eek:

"In use, the Bendix/Dunlop brake has turned out to be woefully inadequate for everyday driving."

Just curious, how many miles have you logged in a Studebaker Avanti to come to that conclusion? In 80K+ miles in 2 cars that hasn't been my experience.

"the Bendix/Dunlop brake was designed for use on cars much lighter than our Studebakers"

Like the 3300 lb XK150 DHC or the 4200 lb Jag MK X or a Daimler Saloon at 4300 lbs as opposed to a 3000 lb Avanti?

stude dude
01-22-2014, 10:26 PM
From an engineering point of view, I still believe the original factory setup is the best option out there. Its performance may not be state of the art but few Stude owners could ask for more, even in modern traffic.

Some members have experimented with different disc brake pad compounds with varying results. Unfortunately a lot of the aftermarket kits will slightly alter the track or offset of the front wheels which puts greater load on the kin pins. There are also some issues with using spacers on the stub axle and altering the bearing surface. It will all work but some of these kits are not destined to do 100,000 miles like the originals did.

Chris.

StudeDave57
01-22-2014, 10:32 PM
dave, i don't understand......why would the auto manufacturers want to 'improve' on a brake that you have said is not 'high maintenance or problematic'? Please explain.:confused::confused:
You first. YOU are the one who said they were 'high maintenance and problematic', not me.
But you have yet to show any proof. Sounds a lot like a sea story to me. :yeahright: :whome:
The only problem I have had was when I allowed someone else to do a brake job, and they failed to tighten everything up.
When two of the three bolts came out- the third one wasn't enough to hold it all together. That was one long weekend.



uh-oh!....you mean i'll be driving to work in an obsolete car tomorrow? Yikes!:qq:
You said that, not Allen. But I think you'll be okay. I mean- your car is an '83, right? :ohmy:
There were lots of improvements between 1964 when real (S T U D E B A K E R) Avantis were made and 1983 when yours was made, no? You even said so yourself...
:oops: :whome:




In use, the Bendix/Dunlop brake has turned out to be woefully inadequate for everyday driving.

Interesting. I guess all those miles I have put on my Cruiser since 1991 in Oak Harbor traffic (honest- they do have some), San Diego traffic, Jacksonville/Atlantic Beach traffic, and Virginia Beach traffic was some sort of fluke. I am one lucky guy, and should go buy a lotto ticket, no? Good thing I didn't go on any long extended cross-country trips, AND/OR tow any trailers either, eh? Oh, wait- I did do all those things- AND MORE!!!

I have proved my point. Can you prove yours?




StudeDave '57 :cool:

52 Ragtop
01-22-2014, 10:58 PM
When I came up with the "conversion" back in 1983, I was driving my 63 Avanti everyday in Los Angeles. The rotors were no longer available, calipers were no longer available, and I really got tired of "pushing and praying"
Agreed, when the Bendix disc brakes were installed on Studebakers, they WERE the best thing since sliced bread. However, disc brake technology has changed quite a bit.
The rotors I have used since day 1 are the 68-69 Mustang/Cougar rotors that are vented. The calipers are S-10. The pads are right at 2.5 times larger than the stock Bendix pads. Since brakes work based on friction, there is 2.5 times more pad with a vented rotor (better cooling, less fade) They do work better than the factory disc brakes.
Now, IF your brakes are working great, and you are happy with them, then by all means keep them. but when it comes time to start replacing rotors ($200 each) calipers ($90 each x 4) the 4 steel crossover tubes ($38.00 per side) pads ($33.00) and front hoses ($28.00 each) You'll be into the front brakes in the $900 range. My kit sells for $659.95 which includes everything you need except: wheel bearing grease, brake fluid and about 4 hours of your time.
I have had my kits on my Avanti (since 1983) and my 52 Commander (since 1990) I've gone through 1 set of pads on the Avanti, and a couple years ago converted the rears to disc brakes also.
In my "opinion" it is a safety factor, since we all know that newer vehicles can stop a lot faster than both the original disc brake cars, and 4 wheel drum brake cars (and trucks)
I have just sent out the 2nd 1 ton truck kit! 3/4 ton kits are coming "soon"

As many of you know I also make my own brake hoses now, with fresh hose and new fittings. All brake hose has been date coded since at least 1977. This is a DOT requirement!
Raybestos on their website state that rubber brake hose "should" be replaced every 3-5 years! So, check the date codes on your brake hoses, IF there is not a date clearly marked on the hose, it is older than 1977! and for safety reasons should be replaced!
OK, that's my Public Service Announcement for today!

Thanks for all the support from you guys and gals!

Jim

GThawkwind
01-23-2014, 01:55 AM
While I actually have Jim on board here, I was wondering Jim. How many people on a strict budget have bought your budget kit, and actually managed a cheap conversion? I don't have alot of cash to throw around, but really do like the idea of having modern stopping power. In your honest opinion could someone go with your kit, scavage calipers and possibly rotors from a yard, and save quite enough to make it more feasible for a budget builder.

53k
01-23-2014, 08:40 AM
Actually, although the Turner system will fit many drum brake Studes....He first offered it to help Avanti owners stop their high performance cars! In use, the Bendix/Dunlop brake has turned out to be woefully inadequate for everyday driving. As someone said in another post....the Bendix/Dunlop brake was designed for use on cars much lighter than our Studebakers. Sorry folks...but that's a fact!:eek:
I would have to do some digging, but it sticks in my mind that 1963 road tests of the Avanti had them stopping in much the same or maybe even better distances from speed than "modern" systems. And they were running 6.70x15 bias ply tires. It also sticks in my mind that the finned drum cars stopped pretty well too, but only once or twice before they faded.
The Bendix brakes on my '64 Daytona Wagonaire, scale weight with one passenger (me)- 3,800 pounds, feel like they stop better (or at least as good) than the Turner brakes on my '64 R-1 Avanti or the "modern" GM brakes on my '84. Both Avantis could probably stand to have the pads replaced as they show uneven wear from one side to the other. This is usually due to the sliding caliper assemblies getting sticky (or actually stuck). The dual piston Bendix brakes don't have that problem. Having said all this, I certainly don't plan to convert the '64 Avanti back to the Bendix brakes, but I also have no plans to change the wagon to Turner brakes. My Wagonaire went 80,000 miles on the factory pads. I replaced them with pads from a FLAPS and they were shot in 10,000 miles. I ordered several sets of pads from J.C.Whitney for $9.98 a set of four. I'm still using them at 130,000 plus miles. And the rotors have never been touched. I have also owned two '64 GTs with Bendix brakes. Both stopped just fine. In fact, the second one, with a four-speed and 140,000 miles stopped great and the hydrovac was in the trunk. Apparently the better leverage of the under floor brake pedal setup actually was adequate without boost.
I am certainly not knocking Jim Turner. I think what he has done is truly great for the hobby and I have considered for years using his brakes on my '53 Commander which always had exceptionally poor brakes.
Other disc brake experience- My '95 Dodge Ram 2500 needed pads AND rotors at 38,000 miles (rotors were warped). However, at 111,000 miles the same brakes are still OK. My '92 Chrysler New Yorker went 98,000 miles on the front pads and the original rear pads were still OK when I sold the car with 167,000 miles. My 2003 Acura MDX needed both front pads and rotors at about 40,000 miles (warped rotors again).

stude1964
01-23-2014, 08:49 AM
FWIW If you want to put discs on your car you also need the correct spindles. As far as prices go Dave Thibeault sells completely sleeved and rebuilt calipers with crossover pipes and pads for just over $400. Rob in PA.

gordr
01-23-2014, 10:00 AM
One thing nobody has yet mentioned is unsprung weight; that being the weight of the wheels, tires, brakes, spindles, and part of the suspension components. The more you have, the poorer your ride quality will be, and all the nifty "modern" replacement wheels, tires, and brakes tend to increase unsprung weight rather dramatically. A 205-15 steel-belted radial is a LOT heavier than a 6.70X15 bias tire; likewise the Ford rim suitable for that tire is heavier than the stock Stude rim. And Turner discs, with their vented rotors are heavier than stock drums or discs. This isn't a slam against Jim, it's just an observation, pointing out that "modern" components down there come with a price attached. I think one reason Studebaker went with the Bendix-Dunlop system is that it didn't dramatically increase unsprung weight, and require that they re-engineer their suspension to handle it.

Question for the group: I wonder how Bendix/Dunlop brakes would perform if the rotors were cross-drilled, as is common on motorcycle disc brakes?

sweetolbob
01-23-2014, 10:14 AM
While I actually have Jim on board here, I was wondering Jim. How many people on a strict budget have bought your budget kit, and actually managed a cheap conversion? I don't have alot of cash to throw around, but really do like the idea of having modern stopping power. In your honest opinion could someone go with your kit, scavage calipers and possibly rotors from a yard, and save quite enough to make it more feasible for a budget builder.

I chose that route as I had a contact that could supply parts at close to wholesale so I probably save $100 or so. Currently Rockauto has calipers for $20/ea and rotors $31/ea. Why would you want to go with junk?

Bob

GThawkwind
01-23-2014, 10:34 AM
I chose that route as I had a contact that could supply parts at close to wholesale so I probably save $100 or so. Currently Rockauto has calipers for $20/ea and rotors $31/ea. Why would you want to go with junk?

Bob
Keep in my mind last I checked price on a caliper, it was for my suzuki and it 90 something. At those prices I would go new. Thats a major advantage to the turner kit then, what ends up making the swap so spendy since it's obviously not calipers/rotors.

sweetolbob
01-23-2014, 10:47 AM
Keep in my mind last I checked price on a caliper, it was for my suzuki and it 90 something. At those prices I would go new. Thats a major advantage to the turner kit then, what ends up making the swap so spendy since it's obviously not calipers/rotors.

Jim's website will give you the price of the adapters, brake hoses and a list of the necessary parts. That's a start.

Rock Auto has a website http://www.rockauto.com that you can find the prices of everything you need for the conversion as does your FLAPS.

I'll leave it up to you to answer your question as I'm starting to feel guilty about posting this as it short changes Jim by a couple of bucks that he deserves for his contributions to the hobby/forum.

Bob

warrlaw1
01-23-2014, 11:09 AM
I agree with sweet ol' BOB. The time we spend trying to save a buck could have produced a college degree, a reasonable income and no need to look for that last dollar saved from a Studebaker friend. I had a young drummer once who drove music stores nuts. He would ask for the cheapest parts available for his drum kit. One store clerk figured him out really quickly. When he asked the clerk for the cheapest felt washers for his cymbol stands, the clerk told him to go to his mother's dryer, empty out the lint trap and make his own. The clerk was being sarcastic, but the drummer thought that was the best answer he had ever heard. Each to his own.

plwindish
01-23-2014, 12:27 PM
Am I the only Avanti owner that had squealing with the disc brakes? The squealing drove me nuts back in 1966-69 with the 64 Avanti I had at the time. Fast forward to 2011 and when I bought a 76, the old familiar squeal was back. Turners have solved that issue along with improving the braking.

GThawkwind
01-23-2014, 02:00 PM
Wow, thus thread went kinda nuts. I got my answer. The brakes are good but if I buy used and they aren't good then I'll spend just as much if not far more then I would on Jims kit. And even if they are good when something does brake the cost will be killer. Where as Jims kit is one big spend that, once spent will be cheap to fix in the future. I could see doing what Pat D did and use his MC upgrade with drums then later down the line consider stepping to disc brakes. I guess that'll all depend on how much I'm willing to spend when I get to brakes. But a cheap set of factory brakes aren't cheap as they seem, unless I know they are good. So not worth jumping on.

studebaker-R2-4-me
01-23-2014, 03:11 PM
Am I the only Avanti owner that had squealing with the disc brakes? The squealing drove me nuts back in 1966-69 with the 64 Avanti I had at the time. Fast forward to 2011 and when I bought a 76, the old familiar squeal was back. Turners have solved that issue along with improving the braking.

The solution for squealing disc brakes has been discussed a few times on this forum in this past year. I myself complained at one point of the harmonic produced when applying the brakes after changing pads. The solution is mounting the pad with CRC Disc Brake Quiet.

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?77830-Studebaker-disk-brake-pads&highlight=disc+brake+quiet


Allen

Packard8
01-23-2014, 03:50 PM
. I could see doing what Pat D did and use his MC upgrade with drums then later down the line consider stepping to disc brakes. I guess that'll all depend on how much I'm willing to spend when I get to brakes.

That might be the most practical approach depending on how you intend to use the car. A dual M/C with fresh drum brakes would be safe for "normal" driving. I'm not sure if you intend to stay with stock power in your car or install a high HP drive train? If you aren't doing a high performance build the drum setup should get you by.

SN-60
01-23-2014, 04:15 PM
Wow, thus thread went kinda nuts. I got my answer. The brakes are good but if I buy used and they aren't good then I'll spend just as much if not far more then I would on Jims kit. And even if they are good when something does brake the cost will be killer. Where as Jims kit is one big spend that, once spent will be cheap to fix in the future. I could see doing what Pat D did and use his MC upgrade with drums then later down the line consider stepping to disc brakes. I guess that'll all depend on how much I'm willing to spend when I get to brakes. But a cheap set of factory brakes aren't cheap as they seem, unless I know they are good. So not worth jumping on.

Amen Brother!...I think You've definitely grasped the situation. Leave the antiquated Dunlop brakes on the pristine show car/summer car....but go with the MUCH better (and safer) Turner system when considering REAL WORLD driving.....and that's that!

Corvanti
01-23-2014, 06:45 PM
Daniel, with all that needs to be done with your vehicle, i'd get her to run, drive and stop with what you have and can find at the least expense. then from what i've read in other threads - do the "cosmetics" you want.

after that, do upgrades. FWIW: my '63 Avanti had the Bendix discs and stopped fine. the '40 stopping was not so great, but the '51 with drums isn't bad at all...

having said that, if i needed to replace/"upgrade" the '51 - i'd certainly be interested in Mr. Turner's products!!!

Gunslinger
01-23-2014, 06:51 PM
The main reason I upgraded to the Turner system on my Avanti was not due to the brakes lack of stopping ability...it stopped just fine. It was due to the squealing that seems to break ear drums and shatter glass. No matter what was done...shimming the pads, turning the rotors, rebuilding the calipers, several sets of pads, beveling the pads...no matter what...the squeal was present. Upgrading to the Turner system took care of the problem.

SN-60
01-23-2014, 07:02 PM
The main reason I upgraded to the Turner system on my Avanti was not due to the brakes lack of stopping ability...it stopped just fine. It was due to the squealing that seems to break ear drums and shatter glass. No matter what was done...shimming the pads, turning the rotors, rebuilding the calipers, several sets of pads, beveling the pads...no matter what...the squeal was present. Upgrading to the Turner system took care of the problem.

Nevertheless Your reason for making the change...the fact is You did get rid of those problematic Dunlop disc brakes....as many, many, others also have...and they've NEVER looked back!

Gunslinger
01-23-2014, 07:52 PM
I understand what you mean by problematic. I'm not sure the issues we face today with the Dunlop/Bendix design isn't so much inherent but availability and cost of maintenance today. Since disc pads are not made of the same materials that they were originally due to EPA regs (not necessarily a bad thing), current pad materials may well be the culprit of noise issues. I really doubt if pad manufacturers use their best technology material on such an obsolete application.

If one could find a NOS set of original pads, they may well be quieter and stop better than current pads.

SN-60
01-23-2014, 07:57 PM
I understand what you mean by problematic. I'm not sure the issues we face today with the Dunlop/Bendix design isn't so much inherent but availability and cost of maintenance today. Since disc pads are not made of the same materials that they were originally due to EPA regs (not necessarily a bad thing), current pad materials may well be the culprit of noise issues. I really doubt if pad manufacturers use their best technology material on such an obsolete application.

If one could find a NOS set of original pads, they may well be quieter and stop better than current pads.

I think You've made a very good point here. Modern brake pad composition certainly has changed...much more enviromentally friendly....but the new linings simply don't seem to have the stopping power of the older asbestos/metallic types, and probably are more prone to squealing.

SN-60
01-25-2014, 08:43 AM
A 'Factory Disc Brake' installed on Studebakers (oops, Avantis) That was/is VERY good, are the disc brakes used on the '84-'85 Studebaker chassied Avantis. The caliper-to-spindle adapter was custom made for these cars, but will fit any '51-up Studebaker. These adapters support good size '82-'87 Chevrolet Camaro calipers, which compress onto beefy Camaro ventilated rotors. These brakes really stop well, as they were designed for a car of similar weight and size to our Avantis, and replacement parts 'grow on trees' and are VERY reasonably priced. The downside here is that I don't believe Avanti made all that many sets of these unique GM-to-Studebaker caliper adapters before changing over to the complete Chevrolet chassis for their 1987 models.:(

sweetolbob
01-25-2014, 10:27 AM
Interesting comments, Ed

Long before I knew about the forum and Jim Turner, I picked up a Caprice 9C1 (Police Car) drive train. I installed the complete setup (engine, 700R4 trans and Posi rear end) in my 54K

That left me with two issues, the wheel bolt pattern on the front and the 6 cyl brake drums. I found two sets of brake adapters at a swap meet that I bought for next to nothing. The seller said they were 40's Ford to Camaro/Firebird wheel calipers. A little later with some mill time in the pole barn and the the correct wheel bearings to put rotors on the 54K spindles, it stops like a Camaro. I just used the 89 Camaro MC and proportioning valve so the complete system is essentially late 80's Camaro.

You are correct, it will stop the 54K just like a 80/90's era Camaro.

Bob

bezhawk
01-25-2014, 10:41 AM
Just don't fix the floors and put brake pads on your feet!:lol: ...I made my own caliper brackets, and use Brembo 4 piston calipers and Jeep vented rotors

63 R2 Hawk
01-25-2014, 10:46 AM
The main reason I upgraded to the Turner system on my Avanti was not due to the brakes lack of stopping ability...it stopped just fine. It was due to the squealing that seems to break ear drums and shatter glass. No matter what was done...shimming the pads, turning the rotors, rebuilding the calipers, several sets of pads, beveling the pads...no matter what...the squeal was present. Upgrading to the Turner system took care of the problem.

I'm still using the stock Dunlop brakes on my "frequent driver" and they perform fine considering the aging design. I found I could finally make them quiet by machining a shallow radiused-bottom groove diagonally across the face of the pads and oriented to sweep any dust to the outside. The only noise I get now is when it is rainy (pretty common here in the Pacific North "wet"), the pads swell slightly and they tend to groan a little until they get warmed up, especially when backing out of the garage. If I commuted daily in this car I would probably upgrade the braking system but I don't see any need to do that right now.

SN-60
01-25-2014, 10:46 AM
Interesting comments, Ed

Long before I knew about the forum and Jim Turner, I picked up a Caprice 9C1 (Police Car) drive train. I installed the complete setup (engine, 700R4 trans and Posi rear end) in my 54K

That left me with two issues, the wheel bolt pattern on the front and the 6 cyl brake drums. I found two sets of brake adapters at a swap meet that I bought for next to nothing. The seller said they were 40's Ford to Camaro/Firebird wheel calipers. A little later with some mill time in the pole barn and the the correct wheel bearings to put rotors on the 54K spindles, it stops like a Camaro. I just used the 89 Camaro MC and proportioning valve so the complete system is essentially late 80's Camaro.

You are correct, it will stop the 54K just like a 80/90's era Camaro.

Bob

Hey Bob, You've brought up two good points that I left out of My 'GM brake story'...Wheel adapters ARE needed to use a wheel with a 'Stude type' bolt pattern with the Chevy camaro rotors, and a 1/4" spacer is also required between the inner wheel bearing and the rotor for proper rotor-to caliper alignment. (This 'spacer' looks and fits into the rotor like an inner wheel bearing 'cone', but is only 1/4" wide. Thanks Bob.

Dan White
01-25-2014, 11:28 AM
I have 2 '64 Hawks, and R1 and an R2. The R1 had the factory disk brakes removed at some point and large finned drums put on. The R2 has the factory disk brakes. Back in '94 I put on the Dave Levesque 1st Gen. designed disk brake kit, which uses Ford LTD rotors and Chrysler (Kelsey Hayes) very large calipers. In comparing the two, the R2 stops adequately without fail, but longer stopping distances than the R1. The problem with the R1 is that you need to be careful as with the Hydrovac it will either put you through the windshield or lock up the brakes without a problem. It takes a little getting used to as to how you apply the brakes. I have never given thought to replacing the R2s with any aftermarket kit, it works just fine and is not nearly as touchy as the R1. On the other hand, I also don't have a desire to put factory disks back on the R1 either.

StudeRich
01-25-2014, 11:33 AM
You probably need a Drum Brake Booster on that R1 for the Drum Brakes, so it is not overly sensitive.

SN-60
01-25-2014, 11:37 AM
I have 2 '64 Hawks, and R1 and an R2. The R1 had the factory disk brakes removed at some point and large finned drums put on. The R2 has the factory disk brakes. Back in '94 I put on the Dave Levesque 1st Gen. designed disk brake kit, which uses Ford LTD rotors and Chrysler (Kelsey Hayes) very large calipers. In comparing the two, the R2 stops adequately without fail, but longer stopping distances than the R1. The problem with the R1 is that you need to be careful as with the Hydrovac it will either put you through the windshield or lock up the brakes without a problem. It takes a little getting used to as to how you apply the brakes. I have never given thought to replacing the R2s with any aftermarket kit, it works just fine and is not nearly as touchy as the R1. On the other hand, I also don't have a desire to put factory disks back on the R1 either.

Interesting story Dan. It kind of sounds like You may have 'Too Much Brake' on Your R1 Hawk. I wonder how it would be with the factory disc brake hydrovac removed, (this is the long cylinder type) or, with a smaller drum brake style hydrovac installed?

Hawklover
01-25-2014, 04:04 PM
Gun,
PM me and I will provide the answer to your question.
I understand what you mean by problematic. I'm not sure the issues we face today with the Dunlop/Bendix design isn't so much inherent but availability and cost of maintenance today. Since disc pads are not made of the same materials that they were originally due to EPA regs (not necessarily a bad thing), current pad materials may well be the culprit of noise issues. I really doubt if pad manufacturers use their best technology material on such an obsolete application.

If one could find a NOS set of original pads, they may well be quieter and stop better than current pads.

1962larksedan
01-25-2014, 05:47 PM
Wow, thus thread went kinda nuts. I got my answer. The brakes are good but if I buy used and they aren't good then I'll spend just as much if not far more then I would on Jims kit. And even if they are good when something does brake the cost will be killer. Where as Jims kit is one big spend that, once spent will be cheap to fix in the future. I could see doing what Pat D did and use his MC upgrade with drums then later down the line consider stepping to disc brakes. I guess that'll all depend on how much I'm willing to spend when I get to brakes. But a cheap set of factory brakes aren't cheap as they seem, unless I know they are good. So not worth jumping on.

I have to agree there. If your car came with the factory discs; they might be worth keeping around, especially if said car is a 'Sunday driver'. But; for daily use; I'd go with one of Jim's disc brake kits and call it good. The above stated; assuming you have the 1954+ 'V8' (11") drums and they're in otherwise decent shape; toss on a set of new wheel cylinders and hoses F&R, swap in a dual chamber master cylinder. I did just that on my 1962 Lark since the front drums were standard size and the brake shoes had essentially zero wear as received. TOO; I did replace the wheel bearings/seal since the grease was 'dead' and probably hadn't been done since ca. 1973 due to my (late) Lark sitting.

Dan White
01-25-2014, 06:17 PM
i made some adjustments to the rear drums on the R1 this fall and it is much less sensitive now. I don't think I really readjusted them when I put the kit on years ago.

David
01-25-2014, 11:23 PM
Does anyone know, when resurfacing a '64 GT factory rotor disc, what is the minimum thickness tolerance they should be turned too?