Electrical: Slow Starter????

[61LaRk4dr]

Hello All,

Description:

I am going to cut to the chase. About three weeks ago, I put a new 6 volt battery into my 1951 Studebaker Land Cruiser that I am restoring. I was able to get the engine to turn over and briefly start. The vehicle briefly starting and then dying is a whole different topic that I will address at a later time. About a week ago, I notice that when I tried to start the car up the starter was rotating very slowly as if the battery was dying. I went ahead and checked the battery with a volt meter and received a reading of 6.37 volts. I then went ahead and charged the battery to where I was receiving a voltage of about 6.70 volts. I then proceeded to try to turn over the engine again and yet the starter was turning the engine slowly. I then figured that the car had been sitting for some time and that the starter had to be rebuilt. Fast forward to this weekend. I rebuilt the starter, cleaned the terminals on both battery cables, starter solenoid, and the cable going from the solenoid to the starter. I was not impressed when after doing all of that, that I was still having the same problem. Now before I start replacing every single component in the engine compartment (which I probably will eventually) I would like to know what could be the next possible culprit. I was thinking it might be the starter solenoid, but I am not having luck finding an affordable NOS one to gamble on.

Summary:

Specifications: 1951 Studebaker Land Cruiser, 232 V-8, Automatic, 6 Volt system.

Problem: Starter turns slowly as if I have a dead battery, but battery is fully charged.

Things done so far: Charged battery, rebuilt starter, cleaned and secured battery/starter cables, ensured
ground connection is clean.

Next possibility: Starter solenoid?????

Questions: What is the culprit?
Does anyone have a NOS solenoid?

Thank you,

Brian

[55 56 PREZ 4D]

Do you know how old the battery cables are ?
The cables can look good on the outside and be corroded inside the insulation, greatly increasing the resistance.
Are the cables large enough ?
For 6 volt they should be 1/0 at least, 2/0 is bigger and better.
1/0 is about the size of a Sharpie Marker.
2/0 is about 5/8" thick.
The smaller cables used for 12 volt will not carry enough current.
The best cables are mechanically crimped terminals [crimped with a special tool, not a pair of pliers]. Soldered are next best.
Weatherproof shrink tubing over the battery terminal to cable connection.
Brass battery terminals are best.
Replace all three cables. Use the shortest cables possible.
DO NOT by any means use the cheap shixxy bolt on battery terminals found at the front counter at the parts store.
Grounds, bright clean metal, no paint, rust, grease.

[52 Ragtop]

Also make sure that the grounds are good! a bad ground will cause all kinds of issues! (Just ask Dave Lester) <G>

Jim

[Warren Webb]

I had a similar situation. Vehicle was slow starting so I replaced cables, solenoid & finally had the starter rebuilt. Still had a slow cranking issue. Turned out the timing was off. I still haven't put a timing light to it but it cranks & starts fine now. I did file the points before I loosened the distributor so perhaps the points closed & through the timing off.

[alex54]

You can check for voltage loss with your voltmeter to find a bad cable. Just probe from battery terminal to solenoid then battery terminal to ground. Make sure the connection at the probes are very clean! Have someone crank the engine and look at the voltage drop. Theoretical should be 0V. Actual should be very low---0.1 to maybe 0.3V. If you have a high voltage, say 1V or more, that is your troubled cable. If you have 1v on the cable, the starter sees only 5V (assuming the other cable is 0V, which is unlikely). If you use 12V cables, which are thinner, you will have a greater voltage loss.

You may have to crank with the ignition off since you do not want the engine to start. You want to see cranking voltage loss and may need a couple of seconds to let a digital volt meter to settle since they have a 1 second sample/refresh rate (typically) . Personally, I use an analog meter for this test since they work in real time, but those are seldom used today.

This may or may not be your problem, but it will eliminate the cable as your problem. This type of test could be used on your solenoid IF you have access to both sides (battery/starter). Theoretical should also be 0V when cranking, but actual should be low voltage. A high voltage would indicate a bad solenoid (burnt/pitted contacts to be exact). I am not familiar with the 51's solenoid, so I am not sure if this test is possible.

[Dan Timberlake]

You can check for voltage loss with your voltmeter to find a bad cable. Just probe from battery terminal to solenoid then battery terminal to ground. Make sure the connection at the probes are very clean! Have someone crank the engine and look at the voltage drop. Theoretical should be 0V. Actual should be very low---0.1 to maybe 0.3V. If you have a high voltage, say 1V or more, that is your troubled cable. If you have 1v on the cable, the starter sees only 5V (assuming the other cable is 0V, which is unlikely). If you use 12V cables, which are thinner, you will have a greater voltage loss.

You may have to crank with the ignition off since you do not want the engine to start. You want to see cranking voltage loss and may need a couple of seconds to let a digital volt meter to settle since they have a 1 second sample/refresh rate (typically) . Personally, I use an analog meter for this test since they work in real time, but those are seldom used today.

This may or may not be your problem, but it will eliminate the cable as your problem. This type of test could be used on your solenoid IF you have access to both sides (battery/starter). Theoretical should also be 0V when cranking, but actual should be low voltage. A high voltage would indicate a bad solenoid (burnt/pitted contacts to be exact). I am not familiar with the 51's solenoid, so I am not sure if this test is possible.

====================

X2.

I hate spending money and time on needless part swapping.
I'd rather spend the money on parts that really need to be replaced, in the 25% of the cases that parts actually need to be replaced. I've had an instance or 2 when "tightening" a cleaned connection nice and tight did not clamp the parts hard enought to make good contact. If not for a voltage drop test i would have been off fruitlessly chasing ghosts elsewhere.

Want a video of the general procedure and a typical instrument to use? ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gD7pMk9FCgk

Here are Test points to check entire negative or positive circuit ( your plusses and minuses may be different if positive ground)

http://www.askamechanic.info/askamech2/images/stories/Electrical%20Stuff/Voltage%20Drop%20Testing%20sm.jpg

here are More detailed test points to determine if I need to clean the negative battery post, or replace the entire cable are shown here -

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-XlRDmZ2caNo/TrKhrgS34rI/AAAAAAAAAXw/c8TX-bNchDA/s800/voltage%252520drop%252520test%252520points.jpg

[SN-60]

To: 61 LaRK4dr,.....If Your going to be driving the car much, ditch the 6V system NOW and convert Your '51 to 12V. Believe Me..... You'll never sing the 'Six Volt Blues' again!!

[StudeRich]

Lots of good suggestions here, my first thought was are you using Large enough Cables as others have said.

But I didn't notice anyone saying it would help a lot if you put on a longer Battery Ground Cable to a Starter Mounting Bolt or 2 Cables on the (+) Ground Post, one to the Block or water Pump, one to the Starter.

Or even a double "Eye" ended Cable like a Starter Cable from the Block Ground to the Starter would be easier.

[jackb]

......and just because its worth mentioning......did you rebuild or affect the engine in any way ? I'm assuming you had the car up and running for some time and know a strong starter in that car from a slow starter ??? True ?? If not, then its likely your starter speed is OK. My 41' Commander always sounded to me like it was laboring even after 7K miles on a great rebuild and NOS wires all around.......that electrical system worked flawlessly for the 4 years I drove it.....Cranked slow, but always fired up in the single digits up in Maine come winter.........

[61LaRk4dr]

Hello,

Thank you for all of the support. I have a lot to check out on the battery connections. I thought I had all of the cables cleaned and in order, but I had a feeling that I would need to replace the starter solenoid. Again, appreciate the help.

[altair]

slo starter

Hello,

Thank you for all of the support. I have a lot to check out on the battery connections. I thought I had all of the cables cleaned and in order, but I had a feeling that I would need to replace the starter solenoid. Again, appreciate the help.

A quick inexpensive test connect a jumper direct to the starter lug from the pos + terminal

[rockne10]

...If Your going to be driving the car much, ditch the 6V system NOW and convert Your '51 to 12V.

Now, Ed! We all know that advice is far from sound. The 6-volt systems were quite dependable for the better part of sixty years. If driven on a daily basis they rarely needed an more maintenance than modern 12-volt systems. If modern FM stereo and air conditioning is not required, there is no reason to make a conversion to 12-volt. In fact, my '33 and '51 are both still 6-volt and, even though they are not daily drivers, I seldom have any starting or operating issues, even if they have been sitting through several months.

[jimmijim8]

I'll go with this

If you are in need of the proper gauge cables they can be had from Tractor Supply. They are fairly priced. My 6 volt system works fine. cheers jimmijim

Now, Ed! We all know that advice is far from sound. The 6-volt systems were quite dependable for the better part of sixty years. If driven on a daily basis they rarely needed an more maintenance than modern 12-volt systems. If modern FM stereo and air conditioning is not required, there is no reason to make a conversion to 12-volt. In fact, my '33 and '51 are both still 6-volt and, even though they are not daily drivers, I seldom have any starting or operating issues, even if they have been sitting through several months.

[rkapteyn]

When you say that you rebuilt the starter,what did you do?
The biggest problem with the starters 6 or 12 volt is that the bushing wear and the armature drags on the stator.
When you inspect the starter look at the armature and look for wear marks where the armature rubs.
On Delco starters there was a problem with the windings swelling with the exposure to oils.
This also contributes to the rubbing of the armature to the coils.
The 6 volt system was working for years and the stupid idea to go to 12 volt has to be put to rest.
A properly rebuilt starter should function like on a new car in the years before 1956.
When you went to a Studebaker dealer to buy a new car,the car started just fine and can now if you just pay attention!
Someone here suggested putting an old fashioned analog voltmeter between the positive post of the battery and the big terminal on the starter and watch the voltage drop.
When cranking the voltage should not drop much and if it does replace the cables with heavy 6 volt cables (00) from a tractor supply or I noticed that Autozone sometimes as double odd cables (00) you will need these anyway.
If you still have a large voltage drop send you starter to a shop that knows what they are doing and not just clean and paint the starter and hand it back to you.
Other members can suggest good shops.
Jason posts here and has good reviews.


Robert Kapteyn

[Corley]

Did you put the starter armature on a growler to check for shorts when you rebuilt it? Did you replace the bushings?