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2R5
05-01-2013, 04:41 PM
I think this car is owned by the Museum in SB . I had heard that they were going to put it on ebay....sure is a disappointment though .http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Studebaker-Daytona-Wagonaire-Wagonaire-1965-Studebaker-Daytona-Wagonaire-V8-Not-Running-Sliding-Roof-/230974020498?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item35c71fdb92

Roscomacaw
05-01-2013, 04:55 PM
Wow. If anyone buys this, I've got a solid Wagonaire frame you could have for free.

Chris Pile
05-01-2013, 04:56 PM
I can see why they don't want it.

Swifster
05-01-2013, 04:57 PM
Well the museum has done nothing with it. The cost to do a ground up restoration would be expen$ive.

8E45E
05-01-2013, 05:04 PM
I believe that one belonged to Harold Churchill. I would look over the build sheet before tossing it aside as a parts car.

Craig

PlainBrownR2
05-01-2013, 05:14 PM
It looks like the same one. This is the view that I got from last year at the International....

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/International%20Studebaker%20Meet%20South%20Bend%202012/P1060159_zpse3643e23.jpg (http://s158.photobucket.com/user/PlainBrownR2/media/International%20Studebaker%20Meet%20South%20Bend%202012/P1060159_zpse3643e23.jpg.html)

StudeRich
05-01-2013, 05:26 PM
That is a very good example of how bad a mildly rusted East Coast rust bucket can be. :(

What a shame that IS a Beautiful car, if they were not honest about the bottom, and door posts etc. someone would be sadly disappointed! :ohmy:

Roscomacaw
05-01-2013, 07:42 PM
Rich, I think the photos spell out just how rusty this thing is. I know it's more than I'd ever wanna tackle.

Swifster
05-01-2013, 07:49 PM
My Commander is worse. Parts are available. It's the labor involved...

Is that Brown?

StudeRich
05-02-2013, 03:00 AM
My Commander is worse. Parts are available. It's the labor involved...Is that Brown?

Sure it's Brown, Bermuda Brown Metallic, the same as a '64 like the Plain Brown Wrapper. :)

Bill Pressler
05-02-2013, 03:21 AM
I'm with Craig...I am almost certain that when I first saw that car in the old SNM, the display card said "Donated by Josephine Churchill". Funny that the ad doesn't mention that.

kurtruk
05-02-2013, 04:07 AM
I'm with Craig...I am almost certain that when I first saw that car in the old SNM, the display card said "Donated by Josephine Churchill". Funny that the ad doesn't mention that.

Ad states: "Previously owned by the Harold Churchill family."

AKAchamptrucking
05-02-2013, 05:41 AM
Word on the street is The Churchill family is not happy this car is up for auction. They feel that because of its previous owner it would be a worthy project for the museum.Thats why they donated it instead of just selling it to anyone. Whoever gets it would have a neat piece of history if they were to restore this one.

Michidan
05-02-2013, 07:59 AM
The 52 I bought from the museum was just as bad. Worse in fact for trim, engine, and interior. I don't think it was owned by anyone as special as Churchill, but I have to believe that whom ever donated it didn't expect it to be later sold. Still, the museum did get my hard earned money for it, and we can assume it was used in appropriate ways.

I wonder if it was a mistake listing the car at no reserve. With a reserve price, they could insure that only someone who understood the churchill connection would pony up for the thing.

Then again maybe they are just tired of it rusting all over the basement floor.

Bill Pressler
05-02-2013, 07:16 PM
Ad states: "Previously owned by the Harold Churchill family."

Yes it does, my mistake. I'd have made that a more prominent part of the ad.

The car looks nice, a Daytona in a color I like. I'm not aware that they have any other Wagonaires in the SNM (besides the Brooks Stevens prototypes). I realize it's a daunting restoration, but those rusty areas really don't show in a museum display.

Swifster
05-02-2013, 07:39 PM
Any guesses on a sale price?

StudeMichael
05-02-2013, 08:44 PM
$2,300.00 is my guess.

StudeMichael
05-02-2013, 08:59 PM
The museum has three cars listed on EBAY now:

http://motors.shop.ebay.com/studecrew/m.html?hash=item35c7267188&item=230974452104&pt=US_Cars_Trucks&rt=nc&_trksid=p4340.l2562

It will be interesting to see what the slightly less than driver quality Avanti will go for.

Chris_Dresbach
05-03-2013, 12:22 AM
This is the car that was owned by Churchill. What the deal was years ago was that his daughter wanted to donate a car (or several) to the museum. Harold had a small "fleet" of Studebakers but most of them were late model Canadian built cars that were in rough shape; the Wagonaire was the best of the bunch. So the car was trailered to the old museum where it was fixed up enough to drive and it has basically sat as part of the collection ever since. I can't understand why they are letting this one go away. Up close it's in need of some cosmetic help but the car has so much history attached to it having belonged to a past president of Studebaker. The other reason I'm confused by this is it's the museum's only real Wagonaire. The only other car that comes close to it in the museum is the Skyview prototype, and it is far from being a Wagonaire. I have to agree with Rich's post above, the word on the street lately has been that the Churchill family is not happy with this car being sold. Whoever gets it will get one very special car, no doubt. I have looked it over a few times and the only big problem with it that I see is the gas tank is dented inward on the bottom, it's missing the carb, and some rust. Other than that it's a good project that wouldn't be terribly difficult to get going again as is, but I think it belongs in the museum.

kurtruk
05-03-2013, 12:53 AM
A gift is a gift. Once it's given it is no longer yours and you have no say in what happens to it. Sounds harsh, but that's the legal reality. Some donors put conditions on their giving. If those stipulations aren't met, then they can take back their gift. Yes, it would be nice if the museum (all museums for that matter) could keep and in this case restore everything donated to them. But the reality is they can't. Nor do most museums have the finances or room to fix up and display everything given to them. I'm sure many people think, "Hey, I'll give the museum this car I never restored and they'll restore it and display it." Not reality. But the sale of these cars further finances other projects.

AKAchamptrucking
05-03-2013, 05:48 AM
Kurtruk,what you have stated is true and I agree with you totally. The consternation comes from the fact its pedigree seems to be of no value. A museum is a repository of our history and a celebration of our past. Tossing aside the fact that it is the only true Wagonaire example there (that we know of) what cooler car to have than one owned one of the past Presidents of the marque your are dedicated to preserving?

8E45E
05-03-2013, 06:50 AM
I would like to see the SNM try what one of our local museums do here. http://www.history.alberta.ca/reynolds/ They have a restoration project on display with its history with a see-through DONATION BOX. It may take a couple of years, but those donations do help offset the restoration costs in a big way.

Craig

Swifster
05-03-2013, 07:23 AM
Craig, I like that idea. But every few years you have to pick a project to work on and you have to have the staff to do the restoration. And if you do this, you have to have the space on the exhibit floor to do this.

When Chrysler first opened the W.P.C. museum, they could do a restoration and store cars for exhibits. In the end, not so much.

duncan1951
05-03-2013, 08:04 AM
It would be nice to see such entities such as the museum team up with a local college or trade school and have the project restored by the students learning body, paint etc - they are probably not too keen on points and carberators but what the heck. The school and students could take pride in the historical value of their work and later could point to the museum display and proudly say they had a part in preserving that artifact. Kind of a temporary re-donation in the same spirit. Just typing out loud.

Commander Eddie
05-03-2013, 08:51 AM
Many good points and observations here. I tend to lean on the side of the museum keeping this historic vehicle and at least fixing it up well enough to put on display. Dave introduced an interesting idea, having a local college or trade school get involved. I am even wondering if the Studebaker National Foundation would be interested in taking this one. This is basically what they do, isn't it?

Ed Sallia
Dundee, OR

52-fan
05-03-2013, 09:47 AM
The museum may be making the decision based on factors we don't know about, but if there is not another Wagonaire in the collection they should keep this one. I am not a great Wagonaire fan, but they are unique products that deserve a place in the museum. The history that goes with the car is a plus.

JDP
05-03-2013, 09:54 AM
I recall a few years ago, we found the "100,000th Lark for sale, checked out the history and tried to get the museum interested. The car sold on ebay for peanuts, but the museum could not move fast enough to buy it. I lost track of that very special car, anyone know ??

qsanford
05-03-2013, 10:27 AM
Wasn't the last six cylinder built an Olive Green '66 Wagonaire? I thought that was in the Museum. I think it may have been in the Harrah's collection at one point.

studegary
05-03-2013, 01:09 PM
This Wagonaire was a running car. I can see that the brakes stopped working, but what happened to the carb.? It didn't walk away by itself. There have been problems like this in the past at the SNM. Hopefully, that type of problem no longer exists. From someone that lost thousands on a car loaned to the SNM.

studegary
05-03-2013, 01:16 PM
Does the SNM have a better 1963-1964 Avanti than the one that they have on eBay?
It seems to me that the SNM should have at least one 1963-1966 Wagonaire and one 1963-1964 (stock) Avanti. I can see them continually upgrading, but I do not think that they should be without one of each.

StudeMichael
05-03-2013, 01:54 PM
I sure hope they at least have a better Avanti that the one they are selling Gary. It is a 20 footer that turns into a rat when up close.


Does the SNM have a better 1963-1964 Avanti than the one that they have on eBay?
It seems to me that the SNM should have at least one 1963-1966 Wagonaire and one 1963-1964 (stock) Avanti. I can see them continually upgrading, but I do not think that they should be without one of each.

8E45E
05-04-2013, 10:20 PM
Wasn't the last six cylinder built an Olive Green '66 Wagonaire? I thought that was in the Museum. I think it may have been in the Harrah's collection at one point.

That one is still in Harrah's (National Automobile Museum) http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?41166-Next-To-Last-Studebaker&highlight=harrahs

Craig

PlainBrownR2
05-05-2013, 01:37 AM
There is another Avanti, at least it was there last year. I hope they don't have any of ideas of letting this one go, because whether you like the interior or not, it shows off Loewy's concepts of the egg rather well. It's a '63 White R1 with Orange interior.....:D

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/International%20Studebaker%20Meet%20South%20Bend%202012/P1060220_zps4017ad40.jpg (http://s158.photobucket.com/user/PlainBrownR2/media/International%20Studebaker%20Meet%20South%20Bend%202012/P1060220_zps4017ad40.jpg.html)

I dunno if they shuffled the other ones around or not after last year, but after that, you get into the racing and concept vehicles. There's also the #9 Avanti that was at Bonneville(hope they wouldn't sell it), and Ron Hall's Avanti(Good God they better not sell it) :eek:, as well as the scale model Avanti, and the quad headlight concept shell, that was in the basement last year.

DieselJim
05-05-2013, 03:17 AM
Ron Hall's Avanti still belongs to the Hall family.

Samjoe
05-05-2013, 09:48 AM
A gift is a gift. Once it's given it is no longer yours and you have no say in what happens to it. Sounds harsh, but that's the legal reality. Some donors put conditions on their giving. If those stipulations aren't met, then they can take back their gift. Yes, it would be nice if the museum (all museums for that matter) could keep and in this case restore everything donated to them. But the reality is they can't. Nor do most museums have the finances or room to fix up and display everything given to them. I'm sure many people think, "Hey, I'll give the museum this car I never restored and they'll restore it and display it." Not reality. But the sale of these cars further finances other projects.

Well, it may well be a gift.And they can do what they like with it. But they should remember when they come with their hat in their hands begging for money.
They should not be so shocked when people decline, because of moments like this.

Bill Pressler
05-05-2013, 10:05 AM
Well, it may well be a gift.And they can do what they like with it. But they should remember when they come with their hat in their hands begging for money.
They should not be so shocked when people decline, because of moments like this.

I've heard for a couple decades that the SNM makes it clear that they make no promises that donated cars will be displayed, restored, or not sold.

My own personal opinion, nothing more, is that the SNM now is not the SNM of twenty-five, or even ten, years ago, in terms of management caliber and professionalism. I try as funds allow to donate to them, and our Ohio Region SDC donates to them annually. We're lucky as buffs of a small, defunct car company like Studebaker to have a museum the quality of the current one. I was in there this past Friday night and I feel pride in the place. Chrysler's has closed to the public. My own gut feeling is that if the Studebaker National Museum can't rely on the chapters and individual members of the Studebaker Drivers' Club for financial support, who can they rely on? My two cents and as always stated, change gladly given.

qsanford
05-05-2013, 10:17 AM
That one is still in Harrah's (National Automobile Museum) http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?41166-Next-To-Last-Studebaker&highlight=harrahs

Craig

Thanks, Craig.

tjanowia
05-05-2013, 12:12 PM
Space seems to be part of their problem. The place could stand to be twice as big with cars stacked on top of each other on the lower level. The owner of Building 84 stated that he would love to have Studebakers on display there and I would be glad to approach him with the idea if asked.

studegary
05-05-2013, 09:24 PM
I've heard for a couple decades that the SNM makes it clear that they make no promises that donated cars will be displayed, restored, or not sold.

My own personal opinion, nothing more, is that the SNM now is not the SNM of twenty-five, or even ten, years ago, in terms of management caliber and professionalism. I try as funds allow to donate to them, and our Ohio Region SDC donates to them annually. We're lucky as buffs of a small, defunct car company like Studebaker to have a museum the quality of the current one. I was in there this past Friday night and I feel pride in the place. Chrysler's has closed to the public. My own gut feeling is that if the Studebaker National Museum can't rely on the chapters and individual members of the Studebaker Drivers' Club for financial support, who can they rely on? My two cents and as always stated, change gladly given.

I agree with you, Bill, and well said. I give support to the current management of the SNM that I believe is doing a good job and I do not hold my previous problem with the SNM against them.

Chris_Dresbach
05-05-2013, 09:49 PM
The last time I checked the SNM had three "good" Avantis. The white one in the photo, the Ron Hall car, and Loewy's personal car. As far as the museum having a "good" Wagonaire, if you went up to the welcome desk and asked about viewing a Wagonaire they would direct you to the "white wagon in the basement." which is actually the Skyview prototype.
I can't talk too bad about the museum. For us being an orphan brand it's a wonder that we even have a museum at all, and here we have one that is ranked in the top three auto museums in the country. BUT I think there is room for improvement in a few areas, most of which I have seen first hand.

PlainBrownR2
05-06-2013, 01:37 AM
The last time I checked the SNM had three "good" Avantis. The white one in the photo, the Ron Hall car, and Loewy's personal car. As far as the museum having a "good" Wagonaire, if you went up to the welcome desk and asked about viewing a Wagonaire they would direct you to the "white wagon in the basement." which is actually the Skyview prototype.


That's the disconcerting part about these here kinds of sales. The white Avanti is literally Studebaker's main production vehicle. It's what an ordinary individual would order if they came off the street, so it's a good idea to have a good example what Studebaker would provide. If there's any additional variants of the car, hey, that's great, but remember, we're dealing with a public(outside the cars in general), that thinks a Studebaker 289 is a Ford engine. So we need some basic examples in the museum. If they're directed to the Skyview prototype in the basement, they're gonna think the Wagonaire production car is the Skyview prototype, and not the actual Wagonaire. Now that's an issue, at least for me. :( Now I know in the club, there's quite a few examples of Wagonaires floating around, but I have friends and family outside the hobby that wouldn't know one if they saw one(and I retain quite a few on my Facebook page too!). These are the people where having just a basic museum example for the average individual would help out alot.

I too am in full support of the museum, ever since the days when it was in the Freeman Spicer building. They have a dedicated building now to display the cars, that's spectacular. But, much like some of the decisions at the Illinois Railway Museum, this isn't first or last time I've seen them make a decision, particularly sales decisions like this, where I stood back and said, "Wait......what? Somebody's gonna need to run the logic by me a couple more times of why they did, what they did(aside from that they legally could), because I'm missing something here!". :ohmy:

avantilover
05-06-2013, 03:55 AM
Well, it may well be a gift.And they can do what they like with it. But they should remember when they come with their hat in their hands begging for money.
They should not be so shocked when people decline, because of moments like this.


As I have said before - the museum needs to be set up to take orders 24/7 365 as well as taking PayPal even if they add a bit to cover PayPal fees. From an OS perspective, the first thing we see is "We're not set up to take credit card payments from anywhere but the US, so I and perhaps many others ignore the museum thus denying them sales they may have had.

When they are capable of doing so, I'll consider purchasing from them, am sure someone like Ed Reynolds could get their payment systems up to date.

So, they are - in large part - responsible for their lack of financial security and can - if they choose - correct it. Until they do so they should stop requesting donations.



John Clements

t walgamuth
05-06-2013, 05:26 AM
I too marvel at the quality of the museum. As for the Churchill car, I wonder if the museum offered the car back to the family they would accept it....I suspect not.

Bill Pressler
05-06-2013, 10:42 AM
I agree with you, Bill, and well said. I give support to the current management of the SNM that I believe is doing a good job and I do not hold my previous problem with the SNM against them.

Well, thanks Gary, and I enjoyed sitting across from you at dinner last year there and chatting. I'm always on 'sensory overload' during an International Meet and last year was no different. I did enjoy being there this weekend with the temperature being a pleasant low seventies most of the two days I was there...it was mid-nineties during much of the week of last year's meet!

I haven't experienced a loss like you and others had in the past there, so easy for me to say I guess, but I just love that Museum and it really hit home to me last Friday evening.

I wish it had one more floor; I wish there was a bone-stock GT Hawk there; I wish there was a Wagonaire there--OK, my preferences for later Studes is showing!--but we're lucky to have what we've got IMHO. I wish production orders didn't cost so much, but they have to pay Geoff Newman a portion of each one sold. I still really, really enjoy the place!

And...I wish they'd paint the wheels off-white on that nice white Avanti with tangerine interior! LOL

2R5
05-06-2013, 03:56 PM
The museum has in the works a donation of a perfect wagonaire....that may have something to do with this one going.

njonkman
05-06-2013, 07:36 PM
As I have said before - the museum needs to be set up to take orders 24/7 365 as well as taking PayPal even if they add a bit to cover PayPal fees. From an OS perspective, the first thing we see is "We're not set up to take credit card payments from anywhere but the US, so I and perhaps many others ignore the museum thus denying them sales they may have had.

When they are capable of doing so, I'll consider purchasing from them, am sure someone like Ed Reynolds could get their payment systems up to date.

So, they are - in large part - responsible for their lack of financial security and can - if they choose - correct it. Until they do so they should stop requesting donations.



John Clements

I ran into this credit card problem too when I wanted to give a donation that way as well as when I wanted to order the production order for my car. However they can take your card by phone or mail which is what I ended up doing. My production order was waiting at the cashier when I got there last Friday. The problem is with the shopping cart provider and not with the museum. They need to look into another provider to solve this problem or do away with the shopping cart and use a secure order form as I did when we were in the mail order business for some 20 years. It just means that they have to process the cards manually just as they have to now with phone orders. Works just as good without the hassle. The other reason I went that way was that we sold reproduction furniture hardware etc. and when setting up a shopping cart as they have you could not have various quantities shown for discount prices as everything in the data base had to be uniform for it to work. Like if some some one needed seven pieces they could get the 5 pc. price break and did not have to order 5 plus 2 single pieces. That is how we worked it.
Nick

Studebaker Wheel
05-07-2013, 11:42 AM
Lots of misinformation on this thread. First the restoration of any of the cars now being auctioned would vastly outweigh the cost of acquiring prime examples. Second all of the cars were given to the museum with the understanding that they would be auctioned. Third the Wagonaire was not built specially for Harold Churchill. I might also add that all decisions re acquisitions and sale of any artifact goes through a committee of six individuals then to the entire board for approval. I have been on that committee for 15+ years. As a personal aside I might also observe that if the Studebaker Museum was the size of The Smithsonian Institution many would still claim it was too small.

Bill Pressler
05-07-2013, 02:16 PM
'Third the Wagonaire was not built specially for Harold Churchill.'

That is good to know.

I'll assume he didn't buy it new, even it there's no indication on the production order that it was tagged for him.

I think the eBay ad is very honest. Wish the ad for my '64 Daytona was as much! ;)

Swifster
05-20-2013, 09:57 AM
Did anyone from the forum score on this? $1555 is a steal.

t1003nl
06-12-2013, 07:47 PM
I dug up a letter from the National Bank of South Bend dated 9/17/80. It mentions the estate of Harold Churchill having at least three Studebakers. Hand written on the 2nd page is "64 Wagonaire, The Better One, Going to Museum, under $1000". The Ebay ad is for a '65 Wagonaire but the bank may have been wrong when describing the vehicle. The other 2 cars in the estate described by the bank were a '64 Daytona 4 door and a '66 Daytona 2 door. I thought others might find this interesting. There was no other information about the wagon listed.

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