Brakes: All new but...

[Noxnabaker]

On my -55 sedan I've got all new brake-hoses & brake-cylinders; master & wheels & yesterday I started fill brake-fluid & bleed them all by myself.

Like this:

I put a wrench & hose from the bleeder-valve & then pump the pedal & block it with a long enough wood against the seat, then I open the valve & close it & then the same again until it seems to be alright, all 4 wheels.

Still the pedal would hit bottom at 1:st try & after 3-4 pumpings it's good.
So then I did it the other way that I never done it before: from the rear to the front, thinking "maby that helps 'cause the car's got the master cylinder under the floor...?"
No difference.

So today the same thing again (but with my wife doing the pumping) - front to rear & rear to front & guess what?

Exactly: No change at all.

Maby it's like the hippies says: "it's a sign maaan..." ...that I'm not supposed to stop when I start driving with it?

:0

[Noxnabaker]

No ideas about what the problem might be?

[63t-cab]

Did you bench bleed the master cylender,prior to installing and proceeding ?

[BobPalma]

The first thing to do is make sure the brake shoes are properly adjusted so they don't have to travel an excessive amount to contact the inside of the drums. Proper, "tight," brake adjustment is the first order of business and really isn't hydraulic, it's mechanical.

Then, and only then, does the car have power brakes? I hope NOT for your sake!

Third would be to jack up each end of the car (this will require two "dos," understandably) to get the master cylinder higher than the wheel cylinders, alternately, on each end of the car.

Fill the master cylinder and open each of the two [now-lower] wheel cylinder bleeder screws to let gravity gradually push any air through the system to those wheels. Don't be in a hurry doing this.

Close everything up, fill the master cylinder, and repeat with the other end of the car jacked up. No need to have anyone pumping that way; just watch the fluid stream out each bleeder screw until it becomes solid, then close it.

Are you sure the master cylinder is assembled correctly and the pedal free play is correct? And what Joe said about bench-bleeding the master cylinder, too. BP

[warrlaw1]

Wow, Bob. Never thought of letting gravity do the pumping. Great tip. Thank you, again.

[Noxnabaker]

Like I already wrote:
After 3-4 pumpings I DO get GOOD pressure, doesn't that mean it's air in the system?

& no, "silly me", I didn't bench-bleed it & now I wouldn't mind if it would work anyway since it's such a horrible work to fasten the pipes to it again after the bench-bleed...

The gravity-bleeding I also learned in about 1984 when a Mini Cooper mechanic told me about it: "make sure the master cylinder don't run dry & have a coffee in the meantime"...

Never the less, it sounds to me as it ought to be good even the way I've done it or is there some fundamental rule that bench-bleeding always is required?

For years it seemed as every time I bought a winter-Valiant it needed new brake-cylinders so I always sold good-braking/non-leaking cars in springtime & yeah, it's no big deal to loosen & fasten the master cylinder when it's mounted in hip-height, but now...

& no, it aint got power-booster.

[warrlaw1]

Re-read Mr. Palma's post. Adjust the shoes on all four wheels, first, to stop any unnecessary travel in the wheel cylinders. I went though all of this with new brakes on my 55K. Replaced two perfectly good MCs until I found MY problem, which was different than yours. I had the brakes keep locking on and luckily found some sage advice about properly adjusting the MC linkage and push rod on an under the floor application. That might still be necessary, but adjust up your shoes first. Then if the problem persists we get serious

[Kdancy]

Sounds like BP is right on-- make sure you adjust the shoes properly first (before bleeding) as you will never have good brakes until you do.

[Dwain G.]

Adjusting the brakes means turning the star wheel until the wheel is tight, won't turn anymore, then back off 10 clicks (more or less) until the wheel turns freely with a very slight scraping.
Stick that hose you are using into a clear bottle with some brake fluid in it. Be sure the end of the hose is below the level of the fluid. Fill master cylinder, kneel beside the car and stand on your head to watch the bottle, reach in and push the brake pedal a few times. You can watch bubbles come out at first, then just clear fluid. Keep filling the master cylinder after you push the pedal more than 3 or 4 times.

[Warren Webb]

I have always bled brakes as Dwain says, until last week. I remembered a post by Clark Novak pertaining to a air powered brake bleeder sold by Harbor Freight. It was cheap enough so it didn't hurt the wallet. the result was the easiest brake bleed I have ever done! I highly recommend it if you have an air compressor. Easy as pie! And my head isn't all scraped up from standing on it.

[bezhawk]

I have a hand held vacuum pump that you can hook a container in series with to bleed brakes. Just requires one person. However if you can't get a cylinder to bleed, you can use this pump to pressurize the container and force fluid to the master cylinder. A reverse bleed if you will. This usually takes care of any spongy feeling in the pedal.

[Noxnabaker]

Alright, it took some time until I now finaly got to the computer...

& yeah, I should've said that the brakes actually DO grip!
So: DO GRIP!!! ...but not until I've pumped 3-4 times!

I'm also always(!) using a clear hose down in a clear bottle & all that.

& as I've noticed since my first car in -77 (no, I'm not older than that) that's usually a sign of air in the system.

Now, if I didn't have air in the system I doubt that pumping would make more pressure, but after reading all the above comments I'm probably wrong, but as soon as I let the pedal be for a few seconds it's down all the way when I step on it again.

Otherwise I just have to wait until I've got time enough to jack up the car & try again...

[52 Ragtop]

When you are pumping the pedal, be sure to let the pedal return ALL the way to the top!

Jim

[t walgamuth]

I did not see the OP say he had another person helping with his bleed.

It takes two people unless you have those special bleeder valves. One person at the wheel cylinder, the other person pumps up the brake until the pedal gets solid, then holds pressure against the pedal, the person at the cylinder then opens the bleed valve and allows brake fluid to come out until the person inside the car's foot reaches the floor, then you tighten up the bleed valve and they pump it up again....repeat until no bubbles come out.

Start at the furthest cylinder from the MC and work your way toward the MC.

[njonkman]

As has been said earlier. BRAKE ADJUSTMENT, ADJUSTMENT,ADJUSTMENT. That is all your problem. If there was air in the lines etc. You will not get a hard pedal no matter how many times you pump, it will always feel spongy. The way the system works is this. At the end of the master cylinder piston is a cup which applies the pressure when you push the pedal down. In front of that is a spring and at the end of the spring is a check valve. When you push the piston forward the fluid pushes through the check valve and holds it there compressed if you will mometaily. In hydraulics fluid is displaced by the piston and only by the volume of the piston. So when you have more room at the the other end of the system (wheel cylinder) than the amount the MC piston displaces then the MC piston will travel it''s full available distance without bottoming out the other end (WC) . In other words if there is more travel available at the WC than the MC piston can displace your pedal will go to the floor. Now when you pump the pedal a second time quickly the check valve in the MC holds the fluid in the line for a moment and the piston in the MC retracts allowing more fluid to enter in front of the front piston cup giving a new amount of fluid to be pushed out through the check valve and increasing the volume going to the WC and further pumps just adds to this until there is enough fluid in the line and WC to push the piston in the WC to it's travel limit. There is also a second cup and a compensating port in the MC but not as important in this basic description. Some cars used to have a lug coming out from behind the wheel cylinder to prevent the piston from coming all the way out but others like yours if there were no drum or brake shoes would allow you to pop the piston right out by pumping the pedal. So back to your problem there can only be one reason for being able to pump your brakes to a hard pedal and that is shoe adjustment and nothing else.
I have been doing and bleeding brakes for over 55 years and almost always by myself with no problems except for some ABS systems in recent years where there are so many other things involved including a computer.
Hope this helps, Nick