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View Full Version : A 1963 Super Hawk on ebay?



irish
01-10-2012, 09:30 PM
Anyone have any info on this car? Notice the Serial number plate on the door post? Is it just me or does something seem fishy here?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1963-Studabaker-Super-Hawk-/200698793853?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item2eba948f7d

Joe

BobPalma
01-10-2012, 09:34 PM
Joe, this car has been on e-bay before and we've discussed it here each time. As the first serial-numbered car of the 1963 run, the Serial Number font and being held on with sheet-metal screws is probably legit and not to be feared or questioned if everything else is in order, and it appears to be.

However, the owner insists on calling it a Super Hawk, which it is not. It is a legitimate, factory R2-powered Hawk, but the complete Super Package would not come along until about six months after this car was built. BP

62champ
01-10-2012, 09:39 PM
I would be a little worried about the car. In the one photo, it shows to be running at 2400 rpms with the temp gauge pegged and the oil pressure at zero...

BobPalma
01-10-2012, 09:43 PM
I would be a little worried about the car. In the one photo, it shows to be running at 2400 rpms with the temp gauge pegged and the oil pressure at zero...

Is there a problem? <GGG> BP

52 Ragtop
01-10-2012, 09:47 PM
Although it appears that the key is NOT in the ignition!! So, maybe some electrical "issues"??

Jim

62champ
01-10-2012, 09:48 PM
Only problem might be if there is major internal issues in that metal thing under the hood ;)

irish
01-10-2012, 10:00 PM
As the first serial-numbered car of the 1963 run, the Serial Number font and being held on with sheet-metal screws is probably legit and not to be feared or questioned if everything else is in order, and it appears to be.


That's exactly what made me suspicious. Bob, I could be wrong but assuming it is the correct serial number I really don't believe that plate is original. I've never seen that font on a Stude plate or the use of "1" rather than "I" for the number one.

Joe

dean pearson
01-10-2012, 10:07 PM
Good ole Bob, Now thats funny stuff right there !

Dean.
Is there a problem? <GGG> BP

mbstude
01-10-2012, 10:17 PM
The screw heads on the serial plate don't match, either.

It's a decent R2 4 speed Hawk, and I really like the red/white interior. I'd buy it based on the car. Who cares about the serial plate. It's only used for registration anyways.

Now the "Corvette" guys are probably gonna lecture me on how the plate adds provenance.. or something. <grin> I'd bet the exhaust clamps aren't angled right, either. :rolleyes:

drew72mgb
01-11-2012, 10:16 AM
In SOME states - Kansas, for example - they can be really picky about that plate.
My brother bought a 1964 Daytona in Iowa, in about 1991 - registered it in Arkansas, moved to Conn., where he was forced to do some mechanical work to the E-brake for it to pass inspection and get licensed. Then, he moved to Kansas - the vehicle inspection station refused to do the paper work - and made im take the car to the Trooper Headquarter / Inspection Station. They (the troopers) put the car up on a hoist and started to look for the secret places where the VIN got stamped - and they looked for several HOURS. With the head supervisor telling my brother that they could confiscate the car - and/ or refuse registration in Kansas.

The Daytona was Bordeux Red from the factory, with disc brakes and black interior - my brother had the factory build record - and a previous owner had installed an Avanti R1 (1963), and repainted it a dark red - the masking job on the VIN tag was less than perfect. It was one of those - that were punched for rivets, but was spot welded (crooked, too!), and then the masking job was crooked, as well. The Inspection for Kansas is a visual - does the paperwork match the car - and does anything LOOK "wrong"?

My brother sold this decent Daytona when he bought an Avanti II - the new owners paid a relative to "restore" it - it got taken apart, they got taken for a ride - and the car went "away". Parted out over Craigslist. A real SHAME.

Drew

PS - "seller is responsible for transportation" THAT is a FIRST - usually it is the BUYER that is responsible...

JDP
01-11-2012, 10:30 AM
Joe, this car has been on e-bay before and we've discussed it here each time. As the first serial-numbered car of the 1963 run, the Serial Number font and being held on with sheet-metal screws is probably legit and not to be feared or questioned if everything else is in order, and it appears to be.

However, the owner insists on calling it a Super Hawk, which it is not. It is a legitimate, factory R2-powered Hawk, but the complete Super Package would not come along until about six months after this car was built. BP

Why would Studebaker change the font that they had used for a few years for one car ? IMHO opinion, that plate is home made reproduction even though the car might itself might be legit. I personally would hesitate to bid without some strong documentation on how the serial plate was lost or why Studebaker made a "one off" plate.

Also, why would the first car have the fuel return line from the fuel filter when that was a much later upgrade ?

BobPalma
01-11-2012, 11:02 AM
Why would Studebaker change the font that they had used for a few years for one car ? IMHO opinion, that plate is home made reproduction even though the car might itself might be legit. I personally would hesitate to bid without some strong documentation on how the serial plate was lost or why Studebaker made a "one off" plate.

Also, why would the first car have the fuel return line from the fuel filter when that was a much later upgrade ?

Nelson Bove has probably seen more "first off" and very early 1963s and 1964s than both of us combined, John!

It's Nels' opinion that the plate is probably legit. Based on what he knows and what he's seen and the research he's done, I believe his evaluation. One thing's for sure; if it is really a dry, low mileage car, there ought to be some secret serial number visible on the frame.

The car's been around all these years, so an upgrade to a subsequent fuel line arrangemnt would be entirely possible, too. BP

63 R2 Hawk
01-11-2012, 11:26 AM
I have seen a few anal "restorers" that remove serial plates and door tags so they can paint the firewall, door jamb etc without leaving unsightly masking evidence. Once removed, the plate becomes highly vulnerable to getting "lost". Yes, it happens.

r1lark
01-11-2012, 11:32 AM
Why would Studebaker change the font that they had used for a few years for one car ? IMHO opinion, that plate is home made reproduction even though the car might itself might be legit. I personally would hesitate to bid without some strong documentation on how the serial plate was lost or why Studebaker made a "one off" plate.
The depth of the stamping, plus the significant deformation of the plate in the stamped areas makes me wonder if this is actually an alumimum plate, instead of stainless steel. An onsite inspection of the car would answer this question, which if I was interested in bidding I would certainly do. If it is aluminum, why would Studebaker go to the trouble of making an aluminum serial number plate when they would have had thousands and thousands of stainless ones? Not condeming nor authenticating this car, just asking a question. It's a beautiful car, and I'd love to have it in my garage!
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/$(KGrHqJHJBgE7)9Nc5hlBPDKYltyS!~~60_3.JPG

JDP
01-11-2012, 11:41 AM
Nelson Bove has probably seen more "first off" and very early 1963s and 1964s than both of us combined, John!

It's Nels' opinion that the plate is probably legit. Based on what he knows and what he's seen and the research he's done, I believe his evaluation. One thing's for sure; if it is really a dry, low mileage car, there ought to be some secret serial number visible on the frame.

The car's been around all these years, so an upgrade to a subsequent fuel line arrangemnt would be entirely possible, too. BP



I certainly respect his opinion, but would still ask what documentation forms that opinion. Even if Studebaker engineering made the car for example, why use a different plate blank and font than what was in use at the time and attach it with mismatched screws.

If you are bidding on what is represented as a important historical car,opinions will count for little if a dispute arises over that serial plate. The wrong plate blank, the wrong font, and mismatched screws may well raise questions well after Nels and me are long gone on a car as unique as number one.

I intend no disrespect to anyone, especially Nels, but am at least curious as to how that serial plate came to be.

JDP
01-11-2012, 11:56 AM
I also need to point out the seller may not be aware of the plate issues, nor perhaps a few previous owners, but somewhere down the road that plate may cause some real issues. A few years back I tried to help a lady that bought a special "Golden Hawk show car" that had GT Hawk buckets, and other later options. She even had a letter from a purported to be from Studebaker talking about the car. She could not sue the auction company because they took the description in good faith as did the consignee and a few previous owners, but the owner that provided the letter died in the 70's.

candbstudebakers
01-11-2012, 12:13 PM
I have lots of use Vin tags here in front of me and this style tag is the one used on the 63's but the numbers and letters are a bad copy, first they are not stamped or at least not that hard, also they should all be the same size about 3/8's of an inch and in a nice line....tags I have any one interested????

StudeMichael
01-11-2012, 12:47 PM
The plate is a reproduction. No doubt on that. There is a seller on EBAY that sells these every so often.

JDP
01-11-2012, 12:49 PM
I have lots of use Vin tags here in front of me and this style tag is the one used on the 63's but the numbers and letters are a bad copy, first they are not stamped or at least not that hard, also they should all be the same size about 3/8's of an inch and in a nice line....tags I have any one interested????

Here's a repro tag. (note even the correct notches)

13287

Bob Andrews
01-11-2012, 01:34 PM
If you are bidding on what is represented as a important historical car,opinions will count for little if a dispute arises over that serial plate. The wrong plate blank, the wrong font, and mismatched screws may well raise questions well after Nels and me are long gone on a car as unique as number one.


Agree completely. To me, it sure looks like a repro, where someone did the best they could to add the number. Now if that's the case, then the question is, was it made by a well-meaning previous owner because the original one was faded/damaged/missing or otherwise crappy... or is there a nefarious reason, such as faking a special car? Hard to say, as far as I can tell...

VIN tags always intimidate me, what with the number of cars that have been stolen and found decades later and returned to original owners, while the innocent current owner loses everything. I grew up in the business and have plenty of experience checking authenticity and documents, and given the value of this car as claimed, if a customer asked my opinion I would be uncomfortable vouching for it- and have no idea how I'd make it comfortable.

31Streetrod
01-11-2012, 02:01 PM
I don't think Studebaker used a horizontal line on the plates to index the alpha - numeric stamps. This plate appears to have one. Wonder why?

JDP
01-11-2012, 02:24 PM
I don't think Studebaker used a horizontal line on the plates to index the alpha - numeric stamps. This plate appears to have one. Wonder why?

Good catch, yet another oddity about that plate. To be honest, if someone was trying to commit fraud, I think they'd have done a better job on that plate.(i.e, use the correct font, use the "I" for the 1, use stainless, lose the index line) I suspect the factory plate was lost or stolen by a collector years ago and a PO needed something to get the car registered many years ago. Having said that, I'd make sure the engine number and secret serial number match just in case because the issue will come up again.

kmul221
01-11-2012, 02:30 PM
Whats that gauge where the clock is suppossed to be ?

BobPalma
01-11-2012, 02:41 PM
Whats that gauge where the clock is suppossed to be ?

'Looks like a manifold pressure (vacuum) gauge.

studebakersteve
01-11-2012, 04:32 PM
After seeing this plate I had to go out and look at the tag on my car.I have the second R-2 Hawk built 63V1579.My tag differs greatly from this example,my letters are uniform,my 1 looks like I and the V has'nt got the bars on top of it.I don't question the validity of the car just the ID plate.
Steve

StudeRich
01-11-2012, 04:59 PM
The funny thing is that replacement Serial Number Plate with a matching pair of screws added, COULD easily fool a Highway Patrol person or DMV inspector, but never an experienced Stude. owner! Lol!

Bob Langer
01-11-2012, 05:02 PM
Here is the link to the first discussion about this car.

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?17861-Another-car-CRYING-OUT-for-better-presentation&highlight=63v-1001

JDP
01-11-2012, 05:44 PM
Here is the link to the first discussion about this car.

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?17861-Another-car-CRYING-OUT-for-better-presentation&highlight=63v-1001

I'd forgotten about that. Since he pulled the auction the first time because of questions about the plate perhaps he should have explained it this time around. (If it's the same seller from a few years back)

BobPalma
01-11-2012, 06:14 PM
After seeing this plate, I had to go out and look at the tag on my car. I have the second R2 Hawk built; 63V1579. My tag differs greatly from this example. My letters are uniform, my 1 looks like an I and the V has'nt got the bars on top of it. I don't question the validity of the car, just the ID plate. Steve

Steve: You might check with Cousin George as to when the first several 1963 V8 cars were built, which, of course, would begin with the subject 1963 e-bay Hawk.

Here's why: What can happen early in the production year, very early, is that the first several cars are built by hand, not along a fully set up "regular" assembly line. With the machine not set up to stamp the next-model-year's sequential serial numbers, they may well have stamped the first several by hand, such as the subject Hawk.

For example, let's look at the first dozen or so 1964 model year cars built. Here are the Final Assembly dates for the first 15 1964 model year V8 Studebaker passenger cars (64V prefix eliminated to save typing):

1001 through 1005 were built on June (yes, June) 27, 1963.

Then, no more 1964 models were assembled until August 8, 1963, exactly six weeks later!

1006 through 1009 were built August 8, 1963.

Curiously (here's one to chew on for everyone who thinks production proceeded in an orderly manner):

1010 and 1011 were built August 15, 1963, after what would seem to be a one-week "layover."

But wait, they apparently didn't lay over a full week, because the final assembly date for 1012 through 1015 is recorded as August 12, 1963!

Yep, you read that right: Serial Numbers 1012 through 1015 are recorded as having been built three days before 1010 and 1011!

Consider: When 64V1001 through 1005 were being built June 27, regular 1963 models were still in production. Now do you suppose somebody working on those earliest 1964s went over to the "regular" 1963 production line, away from where those early 1964s were likely being hand-assembled, grabbed the Serial Number making machine, and changed all the numbers from five-digit (by that time) 1963 V8 numbers, to early, 4-digit 1964 numbers, and changed the 63V to 64V as well?

Or might they have let the regular production guys "carry on," grabbed some blank Serial Number plates, and hand-stamped Serial Numbers 64V1001 through 64BV1005 for the June 27 "production run" of 5 cars? After all, this was back when titling and identification numbers were nowhere near as strict and computerized as they are today. Nowadays, you likely couldn't get away with hand-stamp-identifying anything.

Dick Quinn has long cautioned against "never saying never." The discussion of the subject 1963 Hawk would seem to be a good time to heed Dick's warning. BP

JDP
01-11-2012, 06:33 PM
Steve: You might check with Cousin George as to when the first several 1963 V8 cars were built, which, of course, would begin with the subject 1963 e-bay Hawk.

Here's why: What can happen early in the production year, very early, is that the first several cars are built by hand, not along a fully set up "regular" assembly line. With the machine not set up to stamp the next-model-year's sequential serial numbers, they may well have stamped the first several by hand, such as the subject Hawk.

For example, let's look at the first dozen or so 1964 model year cars built. Here are the Final Assembly dates for the first 15 1964 model year V8 Studebaker passenger cars (64V prefix eliminated to save typing):

1001 through 1005 were built on June (yes, June) 27, 1963.

Then, no more 1964 models were assembled until August 8, 1963, exactly six weeks later!

1006 through 1009 were built August 8, 1963.

Curiously (here's one to chew on for everyone who thinks production proceeded in an orderly manner):

1010 and 1011 were built August 15, 1963, after what would seem to be a one-week "layover."

But wait, they apparently didn't lay over a full week, because the final assembly date for 1012 through 1015 is recorded as August 12, 1963!

Yep, you read that right: Serial Numbers 1012 through 1015 are recorded as having been built three days before 1010 and 1011!

Consider: When 64V1001 through 1005 were being built June 27, regular 1963 models were still in production. Now do you suppose somebody working on those earliest 1964s went over to the "regular" 1963 production line, away from where those early 1964s were likely being hand-assembled, grabbed the Serial Number making machine, and changed all the numbers from five-digit (by that time) 1963 V8 numbers, to early, 4-digit 1964 numbers, and changed the 63V to 64V as well?

Or might they have let the regular production guys "carry on," grabbed some blank Serial Number plates, and hand-stamped Serial Numbers 64V1001 through 64BV1005 for the June 27 "production run" of 5 cars? After all, this was back when titling and identification numbers were nowhere near as strict and computerized as they are today. Nowadays, you likely couldn't get away with hand-stamp-identifying anything.

Dick Quinn has long cautioned against "never saying never." The discussion of the subject 1963 Hawk would seem to be a good time to heed Dick's warning. BP


Never say never in this case is a bit of a stretch. If we accept the hand stamped theory that still does not explain the impression in the paint from a previous plate, nor the late inner fender heater for example.

Corvanti
01-11-2012, 06:36 PM
i gotta go with what has been shown in the above pic, that tag appears to be a "counterfeit". doesn't mean that it isn't the "correct" number - just means the tag "ain't right"... :)

"go to where the evidence leads you".

BobPalma
01-11-2012, 06:55 PM
Actually, my primary concern is the lack of a battery hold-down. BP

Corvanti
01-11-2012, 07:00 PM
Actually, my primary concern is the lack of a battery hold-down. BP

that was a "given", Mr. P... :)

maybe "occifer dave" can chime in here. i'm sure he, and others, had more years in the "bunco squad" than i did. :D

R3 challenger
01-11-2012, 07:09 PM
I'm currently doing production order research for a future series of articles on the South Bend 1964 V8 Hawks and Lark-types. I just found a 1964 Daytona 4-door sedan that had no less than three serial numbers attached to the car before it left the factory, and this is documented on three different production orders for this same car. Each PO refers to the previous serial number and lists the new one, and this took place over an extended time period. I'll share those numbers eventually, but I would not be too hasty in claiming 63V-1001 is a fake.

George

63 R2 Hawk
01-11-2012, 08:01 PM
13294

After reading this thread, I had to go out and look at my serial plate. I imagine everybody here has seen an original plate, but here's a picture of my original, albeit shabby, door plate, just in case someone hasn't. Poor masking by PO #2 or #3...... now I'm going to have to do some detailing on it! :)

Corvanti
01-11-2012, 08:14 PM
13294

After reading this thread, I had to go out and look at my serial plate. I imagine everybody here has seen an original plate, but here's a picture of my original, albeit shabby, door plate, just in case someone hasn't. Poor masking by PO #2 or #3...... now I'm going to have to do some detailing on it! :)

looks good to me!!! for what's that worth...

maybe a q-tip of "rust inhibitor" where needed... :D

JDP
01-11-2012, 08:14 PM
Not many are saying it's a fake, just that the plate probably is. I know of several serial numbers on one car, the "ex" serial number Avanti's made in 62 and later renumbered as 64's come to mind, but have never seen a plate like on this Hawk. I would not bid without knowing more, but that's just me.

candbstudebakers
01-12-2012, 12:49 AM
Here's a repro tag. (note even the correct notches)

13287

JP, they match the one sitting on my desk right now, and it is one of many I have.

JDP
01-12-2012, 07:46 AM
JP, they match the one sitting on my desk right now, and it is one of many I have.

Yep, they are the ones I'd use if I ever needed to replace a lost tag. I actually got one repro with a 63 GT parts car I bought that the owner intended to make into a 64. I still have the extra title too.

8E45E
01-12-2012, 08:18 AM
FWIW, being #1, it could be very well be a pilot vehicle. The stamping closely resembles the typeset seen on all the 'EX-nnnn' plates. And Nels' used the term 'pilot' where it was up for sale four years before here: http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?17861-Another-car-CRYING-OUT-for-better-presentation

Craig

JDP
01-12-2012, 08:48 AM
FWIW, being #1, it could be very well be a pilot vehilce. The stamping closely resembles the typeset seen on all the 'EX-nnnn' plates.

Craig

I've never seen the stamping on the EX cars plates, do you have a picture ? If we find the EX cars used the same sort of plate, and stamping with that index line, we may have the answer. I'd still wonder how the plate survived almost 50 years without a scratch on the metal or the decal. Sid did get a new repro decal, but the plate was still scuffed up and I've never seen a old plate look as perfect as on the ebay GT.

8E45E
01-12-2012, 09:09 AM
Note the '3' and the '9' (which is an inverted '6') in the EX numbers in those Pichon Paret cars.

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?34522-2-new-prototypes-at-museum/page2&highlight=pichon

Craig

JDP
01-12-2012, 09:35 AM
Note the '3' and the '9' (which is an inverted '6') in the EX numbers in those Pichon Paret cars.

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?34522-2-new-prototypes-at-museum/page2&highlight=pichon

Craig

Very interesting, those French EX cars had the serial tag attached with pop rivets, now I'm really confused since the decal on the French cars is even different than the others.

mbstude
01-12-2012, 11:09 AM
Here's an EX plate that passed through my hands a little while ago. Note the "1". Craig, good call.

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk179/1959S2D/EXserial.jpg

JDP
01-12-2012, 11:43 AM
Here's an EX plate that passed through my hands a little while ago. Note the "1". Craig, good call.

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk179/1959S2D/EXserial.jpg

It's even dented up like the ebay cars. I still have questions about the plate, but I agree "anything is possible", especially with the new info. Maybe someone will find a corporate letter saying. "The first supercharged Hawk has been sent to engineering to jig up the new inner fender design that will be phased in later." :) Not kidding, they did that sort of thing all the time.

63 R2 Hawk
01-12-2012, 11:51 AM
FWIW, this car *may* have been owned by the Palace Hotel in Nevada... maybe....
http://www.studebakergthawkregistry.ca/car/545
BTW, it didn't have the battery hold down then, either.....

8E45E
01-12-2012, 01:19 PM
Thanks, Matt!

Also notice the letters are larger in size than the numerals in the EX plates as is the 'V' in the 1st production G.T. Hawk plate; not to mention, there are serifs on the 'E','X' and the 'V' on those plates. As for the change in the labelling, Matt's plate would have been on a car made before April 1962 when it was still "Studebaker-Packard Corporation". Since those first five '63 G.T.Hawks were made in June of that year, there would have been this change to "Studebaker Corporation" as per the corporate name change.

Craig

studegary
01-12-2012, 01:34 PM
I wrote to the seller asking for an explanation of the questionable plate. I never received a response.

8E45E
01-12-2012, 01:39 PM
I wrote to the seller asking for an explanation of the questionable plate. I never received a response.

Was/is the owner aware of it being 'questionable' (which it may NOT be now)? I recall back in the seventies before I became aware of the later 1964 Commander Special model, I asked an owner of one how come his Commander had carpeting and mine did not. At the time, he was unable to give me an answer as he didn't know what he had, either.

Craig

Dick Steinkamp
01-12-2012, 03:17 PM
"The first supercharged Hawk has been sent to engineering to jig up the new inner fender design that will be phased in later." :) Not kidding, they did that sort of thing all the time.

My guess is that the new heater was supposed to go into all the 63 GTs from the get go, but when 62 sales didn't materialize as expected and Studebaker had a ton of left over heaters, they decided to use up the old parts before they started with the new. If this car was a prototype, it would most likely have the new heater since engineering was probably unaware of 62 sales and/or the bean counters' desires.

mbstude
01-12-2012, 03:27 PM
My guess is that the new heater was supposed to go into all the 63 GTs from the get go, but when 62 sales didn't materialize as expected and Studebaker had a ton of left over heaters, they decided to use up the old parts before they started with the new. If this car was a prototype, it would most likely have the new heater since engineering was probably unaware of 62 sales and/or the bean counters' desires.

I bet you've figured it out, Dick. Probably the same reason for so many early '63 Hawks having Twin Traction emblems on the gas doors.

r1lark
01-12-2012, 03:50 PM
Here's an EX plate that passed through my hands a little while ago. Note the "1". Craig, good call.

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk179/1959S2D/EXserial.jpg
Matt, was that plate made out of stainless?

mbstude
01-12-2012, 03:56 PM
Matt, was that plate made out of stainless?

I'm pretty sure it was. It certainly wasn't aluminum.

Corvanti
01-12-2012, 03:57 PM
i'm still not convinced it's a legit serial number plate, not that is vehicle isn't "000I". as JDP sort of said, the plate is too nice looking.

no questions or answers posted to the ad. no private answer to Mr. Lindstrom's question.

as BP said in post #2, it is not a "super" hawk. that makes me question any thing else claimed that can not be proved or answered satisfactorily.

i'd want someone that knows much more than i do to check it out prior to a purchase..

or maybe... i've got too much time on my hands at this time and nitpicking this to death! :rolleyes:

8E45E
01-12-2012, 05:08 PM
i'd want someone that knows much more than i do to check it out prior to a purchase...or maybe... i've got too much time on my hands at this time and nitpicking this to death!

Well, you DO sound like you're an interested buyer! I'm not in the market for another car, but IF if was, I'd invest the $25 beforehand and get the production order, and, given the seller's somewhat evasiveness, I'd make the deal in person, but not before giving it a real thorough going-over first. Going by his photos, it really does appear legit. As far as condtion of that serial number plate, I'd compare it to the other shiny metal interior components of the car condition-wise.

Craig

r1lark
01-12-2012, 05:12 PM
Wow, those fonts on Matt's EX plate and the '63 Hawk plate are amazingly close.....I don't want to say 'exact', but they are very close! Agree that the plate is very nice looking, especially the letters/numbers themselves - no dirt caught in the stamped areas. But.........after seeing the EX plate examples..........I'm not as quick to doubt the Hawk's plate as I was before.

That is what is great about this forum - the sheer amount of historical information that can be dredged up, plus the thoughts of hundreds of Studebaker folks throwing out ideas and 'what ifs'. What a great place!

Corvanti
01-12-2012, 05:22 PM
Well, you DO sound like you're an interested buyer! I'm not in the market for another car, but IF if was, I'd invest the $25 beforehand and get the production order, and, given the seller's somewhat evasiveness, I'd make the deal in person, but not before giving it a real thorough going-over first. Going by his photos, it really does appear legit. As far as condtion of that serial number plate, I'd compare it to the other shiny metal interior components of the car condition-wise.

Craig

no craig, i'm not an interested buyer - not in my top 5 or even top 10 stude models i really want! :)
due to recent "circumstances", i thought i'd be ready to purchase my next stude by feb. looks like it may be closer to april now... :(

BobPalma
01-12-2012, 05:28 PM
Well, you DO sound like you're an interested buyer! I'm not in the market for another car, but IF if was, I'd invest the $25 beforehand and get the production order, and, given the seller's somewhat evasiveness, I'd make the deal in person, but not before giving it a real thorough going-over first. Going by his photos, it really does appear legit. As far as condtion of that serial number plate, I'd compare it to the other shiny metal interior components of the car condition-wise. Craig

Good points, Craig.

The car is apparently being marketed by someone who knows far less about Studebakers than most of us here, so we don't know how much evasiveness (and there certainly is enough!) is due to ignorance and how much (if any) is due to intentionally witholding information.

That said, the replacement speedometer (this was mentioned in an earlier listing; not in this one!), the seat tears on a supposedly low-mileage car, the vacuum gauge replacing the clock, etc., simply mandate a thorough, on-site inspection by a legitimate Studebaker expert before anyone would want to get carried away bidding on what appears to be the first 1963-serial-numbered Hawk, the first 1963-serial-numbered Studebaker V8 passenger car, and the first serial-numbered Hawk to be built with a supercharger since summer 1958.

Anything less is just asking for trouble down the road. BP

StudeMichael
01-12-2012, 06:23 PM
Here is the car:

http://www.studebakergthawkregistry.ca/car/545

8E45E
01-12-2012, 07:04 PM
The car is apparently being marketed by someone who knows far less about Studebakers than most of us here, so we don't know how much evasiveness (and there certainly is enough!) is due to ignorance and how much (if any) is due to intentionally witholding information.

I do have some empathy for him right now. I'm guessing 90% of his enquiries have been from knowledgeable and well-intentioned Studebaker folk. And I bet EVERY one has pointed out how the typeset/font is 'not right', and conclude its a 'fake' and has told him that. I'd compare it to owning a piece of fine art that I feel is 99.9% genuine and everyone looking at it and telling me its a 'fake' because the artist ALWAYS dots his 'i's when he signs his name. Therefore, at this point in time, I can see why he may be reluctant to share what he has to say about it. (He will only repeat what was told to him when he purchased it, if he's not a knowledgeable Studebaker person), He is no doubt sick and tired of being told the same thing over and over about that serial number plate, and might now himself be partially convinced that he owns a vehicle that's not 'legitimate'. Because of its provenence and the resulting circumstances, it does make one want to see it in person in any case.

Craig

BobPalma
01-12-2012, 09:03 PM
I do have some empathy for him right now. I'm guessing 90% of his enquiries have been from knowledgeable and well-intentioned Studebaker folk. And I bet EVERY one has pointed out how the typeset/font is 'not right', and conclude its a 'fake' and has told him that. I'd compare it to owning a piece of fine art that I feel is 99.9% genuine and everyone looking at it and telling me its a 'fake' because the artist ALWAYS dots his 'i's when he signs his name. Therefore, at this point in time, I can see why he may be reluctant to share what he has to say about it. (He will only repeat what was told to him when he purchased it, if he's not a knowledgeable Studebaker person), He is no doubt sick and tired of being told the same thing over and over about that serial number plate, and might now himself be partially convinced that he owns a vehicle that's not 'legitimate'. Because of its provenence and the resulting circumstances, it does make one want to see it in person in any case. Craig

Yep; more good points, Craig. The poor guy's head is probably spinning, depending on when he bought it and how much money he has in it.

I agree with your 99.9%, too. If you're extending that to this Hawk, you're right; I bet there's only one chance in a thousand that it is not what it is supposed to be. BP

63 R2 Hawk
01-12-2012, 10:10 PM
Looks like there are 8 bidders out there willing to take a chance so far. Unless the seller can provide some ownership tracing, I would consider it a decent, straight potential driver '63 Hawk with an R2 engine. The 18K mileage doesn't jive with the green/blue paint exposed on the steering wheel or the new looking sideways brake & clutch pedals. 18K was probably the mileage showing on the speedo when it was transplanted into this car. I wouldn't mind owning it, but not for the current $13,100 bid. The fact that the seller hasn't answered any questions (mine included) leads me to believe he knows what it is....

Dick Steinkamp
01-12-2012, 11:27 PM
[B] I wouldn't mind owning it, but not for the current $13,100 bid. ]

I may be completely out of touch (it has happened before :o) but a nice looking R2 4 speed Hawk has got to be worth more than $13,100. Let's assume it is not the first one built, it is not an 18,000 mile car, it doesn't match the production order, and it has had some minor modifications...is it really worth less than $13,100?

hausdok
01-13-2012, 12:23 AM
Hi,

Well, the odd thing is the way the tag is made. Why are the letters on this tag white when the tags are stenciled black with the steel showing through the paint for the letters on original welded-on tags? If you look at a factory plate, each letter/number is stamped with the same pressure and are consistent. On this plate, these digits were hand hammered individually and that stretched the metal and raised the metal around the stamp - that doesn't happen with the stainless steel plates made in the factory. It might be #1 and the original plate got mangled and they made a new one, but this is an anomaly and it does kind of jump out at one.

http://www.inspectorsjournal.com/forum/uploads/hausdok/201211322342_HawkSerialNumberPlateExplained1.jpg

Mike O'Handley
Kenmore, Washington
hausdok@msn.com

irish
01-13-2012, 12:27 AM
I started this post and I have to say I'm surprised at the amount of comments about the car. I don't believe the serial number plate is original (I think it's a repop) and I agree with most everything JDP has said, but I do believe the car could be serial number 63V-1001.

Joe

hausdok
01-13-2012, 12:32 AM
This post reminds me,

Last week I saw a Packard Hawk serial number plate still attached to its section of door pillar steel and cowl number plate for sale somewhere. I'll have to think on it to remember where. Whoever was selling it said that with those tags, a buildable hulk and a certain title company in another state one can actually weld in that door post plate, afix the cowl tag and they'd have a Packard Hawk.

I think if it were that easy that with todays modern welding and polishing technologies there'd be a huge market out there for data plates, etc..

Seems like a lot of BS.

Mike O'Handley
Kenmore, Washington
hausdok@msn.com

mbstude
01-13-2012, 12:59 AM
I think it's legit. I don't know why it seems like such a surprise that a behind-the-times car company in 1962 would hand-stamp a serial tag for the first car in production, which was probably a test mule anyways.

I know for a fact that my EX plate is the real deal. It's not a coincidence that the fonts, stamping style, etc is the same. Obviously, "special" cars didn't have serial plates punched out by the machine that did the ones for the assembly line cars.

I would almost be willing to bet that this GT Hawk started out as a prototype with an EX number, and was later re-serialed as 1001 for public sale. It's a known fact that a few Avantis were given that treatment.

mbstude
01-13-2012, 01:01 AM
This post reminds me,

Last week I saw a Packard Hawk serial number plate still attached to its section of door pillar steel and cowl number plate for sale somewhere. I'll have to think on it to remember where.



Do you remember how much they were asking for it?

8E45E
01-13-2012, 07:08 AM
I think it's legit. I don't know why it seems like such a surprise that a behind-the-times car company in 1962 would hand-stamp a serial tag for the first car in production, which was probably a test mule anyways.

I know for a fact that my EX plate is the real deal. It's not a coincidence that the fonts, stamping style, etc is the same. Obviously, "special" cars didn't have serial plates punched out by the machine that did the ones for the assembly line cars.

I would almost be willing to bet that this GT Hawk started out as a prototype with an EX number, and was later re-serialed as 1001 for public sale. It's a known fact that a few Avantis were given that treatment.

That is my exact thoughts, too, Matt, although I do believe it had this number right from the beginning. Aside from the new heater system, there were no real new engineering changes for 1963 on the Hawks (supercharger installation was proven in a K-body years before) which would almost eliminate a need for EX-numbered testing prototypes. I think Dick and John nailed it on the head about possible clearance issues, etc. I remember reading in a Motor Trend years ago not long after they started their 'In Retrospect' series profiling a vintage car, one of the first cars they did was a 1955 Thunderbird, and the one they profiled was one of the first 12 'pilot models'. The article stated they had a couple of differences from what became actual mainstream production models.

Craig

8E45E
01-13-2012, 07:15 AM
Hi,

Well, the odd thing is the way the tag is made. Why are the letters on this tag white when the tags are stenciled black with the steel showing through the paint for the letters on original welded-on tags? If you look at a factory plate, each letter/number is stamped with the same pressure and are consistent. On this plate, these digits were hand hammered individually and that stretched the metal and raised the metal around the stamp - that doesn't happen with the stainless steel plates made in the factory. It might be #1 and the original plate got mangled and they made a new one, but this is an anomaly and it does kind of jump out at one.

I sure hope you get a chance to visit the SMN in South Bend sometime. The first time I ever saw one of these EX tags in person and up close was on the Brooks Stevens cars in the 1980's when they were still in Mequon. Now with these ones and the Lowey Pichon & Perat cars in the museum, perhaps you can arrange with the staff of the SMN to have a look for yourself at these tags on these cars.

Craig

JDP
01-13-2012, 08:09 AM
I may be completely out of touch (it has happened before :o) but a nice looking R2 4 speed Hawk has got to be worth more than $13,100. Let's assume it is not the first one built, it is not an 18,000 mile car, it doesn't match the production order, and it has had some minor modifications...is it really worth less than $13,100?

$13,100 is decent money for a R1 for example although I've sold many for more. $13,100 for a beater R2 Hawk is about right, but in this shape I'd put a 20K reserve on the car and expect more. It may not bring that, but it's a marketing issue, not the cars fault.

bezhawk
01-13-2012, 10:02 AM
Did only "package" cars have badges? (the rectangular ones below the vent doors, and the grille badges)?

BobPalma
01-13-2012, 10:07 AM
Did only "package" cars have badges? (the rectangular ones below the vent doors, and the grille badges)?

All R-powered 1963 Hawks cars got the rectangular badges below the vent doors after they became available mid-year. If you bought an earlier one and it had no badges, they'd put them on for free if you asked.

Only full-package Super Hawks got grille badges and, then, only after mid-year when the Super Packages were created and marketed.

The subject 1963 Hawk would have left South Bend with no exterior engine identification, and would not have qualified for a grille badge, even after mid-year. BP

8E45E
01-13-2012, 05:09 PM
Agree that the plate is very nice looking, especially the letters/numbers themselves - no dirt caught in the stamped areas. But.........after seeing the EX plate examples..........I'm not as quick to doubt the Hawk's plate as I was before.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if that plate got cosmetically restored. Since it's basically the "centerpiece" that separates it from the rest of the '63 G.T. Hawks, it stands to reason a previous owner could have taken a Dremel 'jewellers package' miniature buffing wheel kit to the plate to shine it up around the painted area, and used a nylon brush to clean out the indentations. (Matt, with you in the business, I'm surprised you didn't shine up that plate you had before sending it along....:) )

Craig

mbstude
01-13-2012, 05:26 PM
(Matt, with you in the business, I'm surprised you didn't shine up that plate you had before sending it along....:) )

Craig

I could've, but then someone would claim it to be fake. :rolleyes:

hausdok
01-14-2012, 04:10 AM
Do you remember how much they were asking for it?Hi Matt,

No. I don't remember there being a price mentioned. I think it was a best offer type ad but I can't say for certain. I just spent an hour trying to find it again and haven't been successful.

It'll come to me by and by.

Mike O'Handley
Kenmore, Washington
hausdok@msn.com