Still working on brakes

[aftontrix]

I am not sure I will ever finish. I replaced everything on the brake system of a 57 Silver Hawk. I just cannot get the brake pedal up more than about 4 inches from the floor on first push. I have bled the brakes using more than a quart of fluid. I have the shoes adjusted out until you can hear the shoes drag but the drum still turns easily.
I have the MC push rod adjusted in until there is only about one eighth of an inch of free pedal (per the shop manual). I tried adjusting the push rod in further which raises the pedal but then when I push and release the pedal, the drums are hard to turn until it sits for awhile and then the pressure goes off of the shoes and they turn freely again.
I am afraid to adjust the shoes out any tighter as it will put a lot of drag on them which could cause a problem.
Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks

[Guest]

Maybe you could clarify what you mean by "the pedal up?" I presume you mean that the pedal does not return to the resting, fully released position.

Does the car have standard or power brakes?

If you mean the pedal does not return to the fully released position, have you checked the lubrication of the pedal shaft bushing and the condition of the return spring?

The master cylinder push rod length free-play seldom needs adjustment and it's better to leave some slack to allow for the fluid expanding. In my experience it's rarely necessary to adjust it.

Did you change the hoses? I am doing the same thing you are, right now, and I found my front hoses were almost totally plugged as well as swelled shut internally. Your issue sounds a little like a hose problem but maybe you changed those already.

It's a good idea to pump the brakes when adjusting the shoes, to re-center them each time.

Did you replace or rebuild the wheel and master cylinder units? I presume you did.

Your situation seems to have several things going on at once. I don't see what adjusting the shoes tighter would have to do with having the pedal coming back up to the fully released position.

[Carl Purdy]

Is all your fitting tight? Do you have some one pumping your brake pedal? Have them pump them slow and then holler when the pedal gets to the bottom so you can tighten the bleed fitting. Right rear, left rear, right front and then the left front. Unless you have a hill holder.

[StudeRich]

Assuming that you did replace EVERYTHING, and did it correctly, the only unknown I see that affects pedal height is the Drums. Just HOW much oversize are those bad boys? The limit is .060 over the 11 in. front and 10 in. rear you know.

[aftontrix]

The pedal returns to the fully released position. I mean it goes down to within four inches of the floor when pushed down. If I adjust the shoes out more so they drag tighter when I turn the drum, I get more pedal but that might cause the brakes to overheat. How much "drag" can you get by with? I have them adjusted so the drum turns freely but you can just barely hear the shoes rub when you spin the drum.

I pumped the brakes as I adjusted them to keep them centered.

No power brakes.

I replaced all brake lines, steel and flexible.


All new master and wheel cylinders as well as all new hardware.

I do not know how much over-sized the drums are. I had the drums turned, I was told they were OK but the front left one is getting thin. I have plenty of adjustment left on the adjusting wheel. I just do not know if I should expand the shoes any more.

Maybe it has been so long since I had a car without power brakes I have forgot how much brake pedal is normal. Is four inches OK or should there be more?


I am doing the bleeding alone. Tough to do with a board holding the pedal down. I have checked all connections and I do not think I have a leak but I will go back and tighten everything again.

Thanks for all of the suggestions.

[Carl Purdy]

A good bleeding job requires 2 people.

[BobGlasscock]

Ok, I am no expert by any means, but....

If you are saying that your brake pedal 'stops' travel when it is 4" above the floor, my only remaining question is this. Is it firm there and does it stop the car? It almost sounds to me that there is nothing wrong if the pedal comes to a firm travel stop and the car stops. 4" from the floor is a long ways in my feeble little mind.

[junior]

A good bleeding job requires 2 people.

and as I discovered, the addition of Russel Speed Bleeders makes the job even faster, and in my opinion better as there is very little chance of drawing air back into the system if you don't close the bleeder screw before your helper releases the brake pedal. Well worth the price...I was going to give you part numbers, but remembered you had stock drum brakes, and my car has Turner (GM calipers) brakes on the front, and GM drums on the rear. Good luck. Junior

[BobPalma]

There's no mention of having bench-bled the new master cylinder prior to installing. If it wasn't bench beld before being installed, the on-car bleeding process could go on for years and there still won't be adequate pedal height on the first stab. BP

[N8N]

are you pump bleeding or using a pressure bleeder?

nate

[Dwain G.]

I think your first post says you performed the adjustment by turning each star wheel until the linings just contact the drums, then you stopped there. Try turning the adjuster until it locks up the wheel, then back off about 10 clicks or until the wheel just barely drags.
Does the brake pedal sit at the same height as the clutch pedal? There is a rubber grommet on the pedal shaft that acts as a stop, among other things. If it is flattened or missing, the pedal returns higher than it should resulting in an increased pedal throw.

[StudeRich]

OK, a board on the Pedal cannot push the pedal to the floor as the fluid is released from the bleeder, that is NOT going to work.
A cheap little $7.00 Brake Bleeder kit plastic bottle with a tube coming out the top, can be used to gravity bleed it out if you do not let the Master Cylinder go dry while it bleeds out. If you cannot get someone to push the pedal, and have no pressure bleeder, that will work better than what you did.

[valleyguy]

On my Hawk, the shoe adjustment really affects the pedal travel. I recently backed off the adjusters on the front drums, since I thought the
wheels were a little too tight, and I lost some pedal, I tightened them back up a bit, so now there is a little more drag but I have a firmer,
higher pedal.
Joe D..

[jclary]

I think your first post says you performed the adjustment by turning each star wheel until the linings just contact the drums, then you stopped there. Try turning the adjuster until it locks up the wheel, then back off about 10 clicks or until the wheel just barely drags.

Aside from proper bleeding...there is no more important adjustment technique than what Dwain has given here when it comes to getting good brake performance on stock Studebaker drum brakes. Adjusting the brakes up to "feel" is not going to produce equal adjustment or proper "centering" of the shoes to the drum. However, adjusting them to a complete "Lock" position and backing off an equal number of clicks of the star adjuster will give you centering and equal braking travel of all four shoes.

Also, don't forget to make sure the tiny breather hole in the master cylinder cap is clear and not clogged. It must remain open to keep the master cylinder from developing a vacuum in the reservoir. When that happens, you will lose braking pressure.

[aftontrix]

Thanks for all the suggestions.

I realize bleeding is a two man job but a man does what a mans got to do.

I am not sure if four inches of brake pedal is adequate or not. I thought I remembered about six inches from my teenage days in the fifties. The pedal feels firm but the vehicle is still on jack stands so I do not know how well it stops. I hate to put the wheels back on and test drive it until I am satisfied with what I think I have.

Being an amateur mechanic, I did not know to bench bleed the master cylinder. Too late now. It seems like if I bleed them enough I will eventually get all of the air out of the MC.

I will try adjusting the brakes until they lock up then back off ten clicks and see what happens. There is no clutch pedal (auto).

I am also going to check the local auto parts stores and see if they carry speed bleeders that might fit. Being such an old car, I doubt my two auto parts stores will have them.

Thanks again everyone, for the help.