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View Full Version : What part of originality is important?.



Flashback
01-05-2011, 09:28 PM
I have seen many posts about " original items". There seems to be a difference of
opinion, on what things are important and what is not. Some of you tell us your
opinions on what is and what is not. Example: HEATER HOSE CLAMPS vs CORRECT
PAINT CODE STICKER and COLOR.

bezhawk
01-05-2011, 09:37 PM
I like to see paint schemes correct evem if the color is changed. ie: no flat black inner fenders and under hood areas.
Don't spray bomb detail without masking!
If you want to restore it like a chevy, then buy a chevy.
I dont knock different drive trains, but then too, don't put cheap universal flex hoses and cheap chrome valve covers and plastic wire looms.
Do quality work and well engineered thoughtful and safe mods, and it's all good.

rockne10
01-05-2011, 10:00 PM
There is something to be said about the "perfect" restoration to original. They are only original once and restoring that originality is an exercise for the extremely well heeled who will only trailer their vehicle to the judging stand. Those vehicles are to be rightly admired and photographed, NOT to be driven.
Upgrade to modern components for the sake of safety if you are to enjoy your ride: hose clamps, radial tires, safety glass in the case of the very old vehicles, etc.
As Bez said, why use generic flex hoses when original formed ones are available. Change what needs changed for safety, not for a cheaper alternative.
And, if you've decided to go modified with Stude power, change anything you want but change it with a quality standard in mind.

Welcome
01-05-2011, 10:03 PM
I have seen many posts about " original items". There seems to be a difference of
opinion, on what things are important and what is not. Some of you tell us your
opinions on what is and what is not. Example: HEATER HOSE CLAMPS vs CORRECT
PAINT CODE STICKER and COLOR.

Not sure which you are asking for comments about:

ORIGINAL or CORRECT ...they are not necessarily the same.

Gunslinger
01-05-2011, 10:09 PM
Not sure which you are asking for comments about:

ORIGINAL or CORRECT ...they are not necessarily the same.

Yes...original means it's the part it left the assembly line with. Correct means it's an identical part...date code, part number, etc. Swap the parts off two cars assembled one behind the other after they leave the assembly line would make them correct, but not original to the car.

A distinction without any difference, I know...but it can drive purists crazy.

Mark Plucenik
01-06-2011, 06:37 AM
What is the opinion on adding factory options? example- My 64 GT, did not come with TT but I am adding a Studebaker TT rear. I am also changing the car from column shift automatic to a factory 4 speed, via another parts car. Not the factory build but all period correct Studebaker, from other Hawks. Body and interior colors will be original.
I like orginality but it also has to make the owner happy.
Mark

jclary
01-06-2011, 07:24 AM
As I have gotten older, the "original" factor has become less important to me. Any original component that can be upgraded for safety is OK in my book. Disc brakes, radial tires, modern wiring, safety belts, mirrors, and aftermarket turn signals come to mind.

Unless a car is still sporting its original paint, I am never impressed by someone repainting a car with original lacquer or enamel when there are much greater and durable paint formulations available in correct colors.

Adding correct factory offered options later like twin traction, overdrive, radio, turn signals, back up lights, or in the case of older cars and trucks, two tail lights, is always OK with me.

About the only thing that bothers me is radical customs that butcher up the cars and trucks to the point that it is difficult to determine the car's original make. :mad:

The late Bob Yale built two wonderful rods that come to mind. One was a 35 President, and the other a 50 or 51 Land Cruiser. Both could cruise the interstate comfortably and blow your doors off, but from just a few feet away, except for the stance and wheels, they could be mistaken for original Studebakers.:cool:

Flashback
01-06-2011, 07:46 AM
I knew I would get caught on the original and correct thing. I know the difference.
I guess "Important was more the key word. My 53 had the original paint, when I
got it, original upholstery, and so on. My intent was to "Restore" it to correct. The
main item that stopped me was the pot metal regal trim. Anyway, it's now a modified
car. Here's one question, for discussion: Where does modified start? To me, if it's not
the correct color, then it's modified. You can't paint the car the wrong color and then
make every thing else correct, and have correctly restored car. The paint is only one
example I am using.

52-fan
01-06-2011, 08:19 AM
I love to look at restored correct cars and I admire the talent it takes to do one, but I don't really want to own a correct car. If modifications are done tastefully most people won't know the difference and most of those who do will appreciate the care taken. I have never been impressed by a car or truck loaded down with all of the original accessories they can carry.

BobGlasscock
01-06-2011, 08:34 AM
To me, 'original' means that all of the car has only Studebaker parts which came on the car off the assembly line or were available from Studebaker for repairs and additions. Putting factory turn signals or backup lights made by Studebaker for that model maintains originality. Putting Turner brakes on the car for safety does not qualify as original, but should not be a negative on any judging. Instead of telling people "my car is original", you should say "my car is original but I upgraded the brakes". Put a V8 in a car that could not have come with it is a modification, that ends originality. Painting it a different color modifies it. I am one who believes that the definition of 'original' is very specific.

Warren Webb
01-06-2011, 09:33 AM
I am with John when it comes to paint. The only time I have had the oppertunity of visiting South Bend & saw the last 66 on display I was taken back on how bad the paint was. Dull & orange peeled, not what I had remembered seeing as far as quality goes in the last 66's I saw in Plainfield, New Jersey showeroom. My first Avanti I painted back in August 1994 and today it still shines as if it was done last week because it was done original color but base coat/clear coat. I was disappointed when a club member said that although the paint looked real good it wasnt up to his standards due to the clear coat & if it was put in for judging, that would deduct for it.

JDP
01-06-2011, 09:42 AM
I am with John when it comes to paint. The only time I have had the oppertunity of visiting South Bend & saw the last 66 on display I was taken back on how bad the paint was. Dull & orange peeled, not what I had remembered seeing as far as quality goes in the last 66's I saw in Plainfield, New Jersey showeroom. My first Avanti I painted back in August 1994 and today it still shines as if it was done last week because it was done original color but base coat/clear coat. I was disappointed when a club member said that although the paint looked real good it wasnt up to his standards due to the clear coat & if it was put in for judging, that would deduct for it.

The sad fact is, perfect orginal is not going to beat a "better" restored example. The PO that spent over 50K before I put more in to finish my old R2 GT is what is needed to build a high point car today. It took over 100 hours of labor to block sand every wave off the body.

Pat Dilling
01-06-2011, 10:47 AM
I am with John when it comes to paint. The only time I have had the oppertunity of visiting South Bend & saw the last 66 on display I was taken back on how bad the paint was. Dull & orange peeled, not what I had remembered seeing as far as quality goes in the last 66's I saw in Plainfield, New Jersey showeroom. My first Avanti I painted back in August 1994 and today it still shines as if it was done last week because it was done original color but base coat/clear coat. I was disappointed when a club member said that although the paint looked real good it wasnt up to his standards due to the clear coat & if it was put in for judging, that would deduct for it.

Perhaps the point there is cars can be over restored. For instance doing a frame off rebuild and having the frame powder coated. Certainly that makes it more durable, but it is better than the frame ever came from the factory. I have seen restorers going for originality go as far as to put factory type chalk markings back on the firewall or engine compartment fenders. My inclination would be to scrub such things off, but that would detract from "factory originality" since that is how the cars left the factory. I think a major problem trying to achieve originality is there had to be variances based on where or when the car was built and who was working the assembly line that particular day. Seems very difficult to document every possible variation that could have occurred.

PackardV8
01-06-2011, 12:08 PM
What part of originality is important?.

1. If your car is entered in an original/restored/correct class in a judged show, then every part of originality is important. Don't start whining if points are deducted because experienced judges think it isn't original or correct. They are more often right than wrong and most likely you just didn't want to spend the bucks and time to make it correct. And no, I wouldn't be a SDC show judge for any amount of money.

2. If not for show judging points, then only those parts which matter to you. You'll get as many different answers as there are car guys. A couple of our members have beautiful Stude-appearing cars of which only a few sections of sheet metal are original. They paid big bucks to get them that way. There are others who spent equally big bucks to get their Studes as original as possible and correct where the original part was gone or couldn't be saved.

My experience is it is wasted effort to try to defend your originality or lack thereof decisions on the basis of heritage, political correctness, safety, cost, utility, parts availability, resale value - just say, "I like it this way."

jack vines

bob40
01-06-2011, 12:19 PM
It's original if it hasnt been touched.It's restored if it has.
Car has been painted? Even if it is the correct color it is still restored.
Interior replaced with original factory material? Restored.

jnormanh
01-06-2011, 01:05 PM
A few years back several guys in the Charlotte Austin-Healey club were restoring Sprites, and faced many questions about details as to what was correct as original. They heard of a new, never titled or driven '69 Sprite stored in a basement in Colorado, and two or three of them went to see it.

What they found was an absolutely 100% new car, carefully stored and maintained just as it left the showroom floor.

It had the original paint runs, crooked upholstery seams, badly fit trim and doors and all the other details as original.

As JDP says, an "original" car will not show nearly as well as some restored cars. Look at some of the Barrett-Jackson high dollar cars, restored with every lock washer correct, and far, far better looking than any factory ever built. They bring a lot of money because they cost a lot of money to bring to that condition.

studegary
01-06-2011, 01:36 PM
I am with John when it comes to paint. The only time I have had the oppertunity of visiting South Bend & saw the last 66 on display I was taken back on how bad the paint was. Dull & orange peeled, not what I had remembered seeing as far as quality goes in the last 66's I saw in Plainfield, New Jersey showeroom. My first Avanti I painted back in August 1994 and today it still shines as if it was done last week because it was done original color but base coat/clear coat. I was disappointed when a club member said that although the paint looked real good it wasnt up to his standards due to the clear coat & if it was put in for judging, that would deduct for it.

The last 1966 displayed in the SNM has been repainted. That is not the original factory paint on the car.

Gunslinger
01-06-2011, 02:21 PM
A few years back several guys in the Charlotte Austin-Healey club were restoring Sprites, and faced many questions about details as to what was correct as original. They heard of a new, never titled or driven '69 Sprite stored in a basement in Colorado, and two or three of them went to see it.

What they found was an absolutely 100% new car, carefully stored and maintained just as it left the showroom floor.

It had the original paint runs, crooked upholstery seams, badly fit trim and doors and all the other details as original.

As JDP says, an "original" car will not show nearly as well as some restored cars. Look at some of the Barrett-Jackson high dollar cars, restored with every lock washer correct, and far, far better looking than any factory ever built. They bring a lot of money because they cost a lot of money to bring to that condition.

As car crazies go, the Mopar people are lunatics. To them Mopar is a religion. On a restored car everything has to be as "Mother Mopar" built it...overspray where the factory put it, etc. The way I see it, if I'm paying big bucks for a new paint job, it better be better than how it left the factory...I don't want to see overspray. I'm not saying over-restoration is necessarily a good thing or even desirable (unless that's what you want), but I want my money's worth when doing anything on a car.

PackardV8
01-06-2011, 02:24 PM
Look at some of the Barrett-Jackson high dollar cars, restored with every lock washer correct, and far, far better looking than any factory ever built. They bring a lot of money because they cost a lot of money to bring to that condition. FWIW, the ACCA Museum at Hershey had a display of original low mileage '50s and '60s cars, including a '53 Stude hardtop. None of those original cars would even place in a show today. Thin paint with some orange peel, thin chrome, poor panel alignment, wide body panel gaps, uneven gaps between body and bumpers.

It took the Japanese to teach the US how to build cars.
They heard of a new, never titled or driven '69 Sprite stored in a basement in Colorado, and two or three of them went to see it.

What they found was an absolutely 100% new car, carefully stored and maintained just as it left the showroom floor.The Brits were so far behind the curve, they just gave up trying to make cars.

For daily drivers, I'm glad they don't make them like they used to.

jack vines

JBOYLE
01-06-2011, 03:08 PM
For daily drivers, I'm glad they don't make them like they used to.
jack vines

Hear, hear!!!

And even for restorations.
Jack, I'm sure you know Allan Barth. He's just finishing my Avanti...if he painted it like the factory did, I'll be very disappointed. :)

Gunslinger
01-06-2011, 03:11 PM
FWIW, the ACCA Museum at Hershey had a display of original low mileage '50s and '60s cars, including a '53 Stude hardtop. None of those original cars would even place in a show today. Thin paint with some orange peel, thin chrome, poor panel alignment, wide body panel gaps, uneven gaps between body and bumpers.

It took the Japanese to teach the US how to build cars. The Brits were so far behind the curve, they just gave up trying to make cars.

For daily drivers, I'm glad they don't make them like they used to.

jack vines


Lucas electrics...Lucas coined the term "Let there be dark!"

When Ford bought Jaguar (now owned by Ta Ta Motors), the first thing they did was can the Lucas electrics.

JDP
01-06-2011, 03:14 PM
Hear, hear!!!

And even for restorations.
Jack, I'm sure you know Allan Barth. He's just finishing my Avanti...if he painted it like the factory did, I'll be very disappointed. :)

On that note, I'll disagee. My Survivor Avanti's paint was flawless even after 40 years of pampering. In general, the Avanti paint jobs were much nicer than the bread and butter cars.

Warren Webb
01-06-2011, 05:49 PM
I need to clarify what I posted earlier. When I saw the last 66 it was in 1993, sitting there with its bad paint. Sure it had been used for 18,000 miles but the paint looked bad. No wonder it was repainted the past year or two, but now, its not original either. My 63 Hawk has the original paint complete with runs in the door jambs-and its gonna stay that way too!

bezhawk
01-06-2011, 06:06 PM
To me part of owning an old car is it's original odiosyncracies and flaws.
You can not compare a 50+ year old car with something brand new. It is not a fair comparison.
A person can spend alot of money tyring to bring an older vehicle up to todays handleing and brakeing.
Now try to add all the creature comforts like AC and a sound system.....and a water-tight passenger compartment.
Then how about leather heated seats and power windows?
How about windows that seal against soft rubber with no whistles or rattles? Instead of some leak - prone flipper contraption.
what about anti-lock brakes? air bags?
I can go on and on.

The point is why do you collect an old car?
To me the bragging rights are the comparisons to similar years makes....Thats where Studes shine supreme.
In dependability, durability and style!

JDP
01-06-2011, 06:34 PM
To me part of owning an old car is it's original odiosyncracies and flaws.
You can not compare a 50+ year old car with something brand new. It is not a fair comparison.
A person can spend alot of money tyring to bring an older vehicle up to todays handleing and brakeing.
Now try to add all the creature comforts like AC and a sound system.....and a water-tight passenger compartment.
Then how about leather heated seats and power windows?
How about windows that seal against soft rubber with no whistles or rattles? Instead of some leak - prone flipper contraption.
what about anti-lock brakes? air bags?
I can go on and on.

The point is why do you collect an old car?
To me the bragging rights are the comparisons to similar years makes....Thats where Studes shine supreme.
In dependability, durability and style!

"In dependability, durability and style! " I'll give you style, but I'll take my Mercedes for the other two. :) Note, back in the 60's, they were pretty typical in those areas, but technology has passed them by.

Welcome
01-06-2011, 07:59 PM
>>>My Survivor Avanti's paint was flawless even after 40 years of pampering. In general, the Avanti paint jobs were much nicer than the bread and butter cars.

Very Interesting!!!

Assuming you refer to a STUDEBAKER AVANTI factory paint job being "much nicer," what do you attribute that to???

JDP
01-06-2011, 08:30 PM
Very Interesting!!!

Assuming you refer to a STUDEBAKER AVANTI factory paint job being "much nicer," what do you attribute that to???

I'd guess, lacquer paint, buffed out, newer Avanti only paint booths and more attention to quality control on a car selling for more than double the money of the sedans. Here's the 40 year old paint from 2003

Nelsen Motorsports
01-06-2011, 09:02 PM
There are many types of original. As seen in the Studebaker world having a matching numbers drive-train is not important, unlike muscle cars, but what does seem important is the basic feel of the car to be as it left the factory. In originality, taking the modifications too far should not include paint, unless the color of the car is far from anything available new on the car. The breaking point is when a car is modified to the point of being permanent. I see wheels, undercoating, aluminum valve covers, added instruments you can say are much needed (I like knowing what is going on under my hood), safety improvements i.e.: disc brakes and seat belts, other things include bolt-on parts that may improve the car's performance, and engine internals (who wants a stock cam?). What takes it too far is things like roll bars, funky paint jobs, and non-stock engines. What I really enjoy is cars that are modern yet original as in the feel and look of the car, say the car was improved by adding fuel injection and modern conveniences that are hidden, these cars are commonly called sleepers.

rockne10
01-06-2011, 09:21 PM
One of the great joys in SDC is the club embraces all manifestations. There are three classes in SDC judging: stock, modified and custom. Then there is display only.
If you are investing in a stock restoration you are going to have a vehicle in exactly the configuration it left the factory except, your paint will be better, your upholstery will be straighter, etc.
If you are going modified you will still have a Studebaker engine but all other mods are open and will be judged only on the quality of the work. It had better be better than factory.
Likewise, with custom, your power is no longer Stude but, whatever you've done had better be pretty darned good.
Keep these in mind if your goal is a trophy.

Build it to please you and only you. Make it safe. Make it fun to drive. If you appreciate it so will we; unless it looks like a scabbed together piece of crap.

Welcome
01-06-2011, 10:11 PM
>>>Build it to please you and only you. Make it safe. Make it fun to drive. If you appreciate it so will we...<<<

Great advice that bears repeating!;)

Build it to please you and only you. Make it safe. Make it fun to drive. If you appreciate it so will we
Build it to please you and only you. Make it safe. Make it fun to drive. If you appreciate it so will we
Build it to please you and only you. Make it safe. Make it fun to drive. If you appreciate it so will we
Build it to please you and only you. Make it safe. Make it fun to drive. If you appreciate it so will we

grobb284
01-08-2011, 06:47 AM
Original is a great deal of perception. I know a friend that redid a rare Mopar. After repainting the engine and the engine compartment, it looked too nice. He decided to use a paint marker, and scrawl "OK" on the side of the engine oil pan, so it wouldn't look so perfect. He had never seen this done on any of the Mopars, but did it thinking it would look "factory".

Once his car appeared in the magazines, many other "original" cars had "OK" scrawled on their oil pans. Probably now, this "original" item is considered documented, only because it has been often repeated.