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View Full Version : R1 Dist postion @ TDC... And how'd I get here?



R1 3137
11-15-2010, 05:00 PM
Long Way to the end of this but someone said they wanted lots of info....

After ordering and waiting (now in my 4th week) the Avanti Repair manual I have been boning up here and over at 'Bob's' page gleaning lots of excellent tidbits hoping to finally round the bend with what has been a months long 'journey' to get this thing running.

The story so far:
I (R1 3137) am the orphaned child of my only owner who, having passed this last spring and leaving no heirs willing to take me on find myself in the hands of his nephew (the Rick guy mentioned in the profile) who said he'd rather see Me up and running rather than out the door for a few thousand dollars.
I admit I'm old with 97K miles on me but I am all original and all here... mostly.

Ricks Story:
(*^&%$ piece of &^$$) the end of this but someone said they wanted lots of info....

After ordering and waiting (now in my 4th week) the Avanti Repair manual I have been boning up here and over at 'Bob's' page gleaning lots of excellent tidbits hoping to finally round the bend with what has been a months long 'journey' to get this thing running.

The story so far:
I (R1 3137) am the orphaned child of my only owner who, having passed this last spring and leaving no heirs willing to take me on find myself in the hands of his nephew (the Rick guy mentioned in the profile) who said he'd rather see Me up and running rather than out the door for a few thousand dollars.
I admit I'm old with 97K miles on me but I am all original and all here... mostly.

Ricks Story:
(*^&%$ piece of &^$$)

I was asked to get this going to sell and made the mistake of saying yes.
I knew the car had been sitting garaged for years so started with the fuel.
Flushed the gas from the tank and lines rinsed and flushed (air pressure from the compressor in the Inlet) again.
Rebuilt the Carb, installed got it running and operating properly except for the secondaries seemed to not open.
Smoke? Yes... Blue for the most part and enough to make me think the rings are frozen from years of just sitting... Solution, Added Marvel Mystery and ran it a bit then let it set. Plan to ad a bit more straight to the cylinders soon as I expect to be waiting for one reason or another. Suffice it to say I am not able to distinguish the 'quality' of smoke well enough to say what is what with the Carb.
No Problems because once I got the car running and took it outside and washed the car it stopped starting.

It had a very worn key and the tumblers were none existent so ordered a replacement.
No Go.
Next replaced the Starter Solenoid, then the Fuse, then rebuilt the relay, and finally had the starter rebuilt.... Still no go. Nothing but a 'click' when the battery was connected.
After days of studying the schematic (Thank You Bob) and totally disconnecting the Ing Switch so I was in pure hot wire mode I got it sorted out... It stated and it stopped. But still was ugly at higher RPM's.
Oh... and in the end the original problem why it wouldn't start after I washed it? It was the actual Ign Switch not the key and cylinder.... which I have now also replaced.... (2nd) new key and all.

After popping the Dist out and tearing it apart I found 1/2 a post was missing from the centrifugal weights pivot post... and oblong holes in the weights themselves. So new weights and a scavenge from the 'extra parts boxes' ( My uncle seemed to know he'd need a few spare parts down the road) and a Pertronix for good measure and I'm about ready to stab it all back together...
Problem is I like things to look like the diagram or picture and I'm having a problem with that.
No Manual yet and the only diagram I've found is here

http://www.studebaker-info.org/tech/Ignition/FO.jpg

My Problem is that the way the dist. cap is currently wired (and the way I found it) the positioning looks like fig 1... only with the #1 wire at spot #8 is in the drawing.
I can set the distributor to fit the Fig. 2 configuration (if I reposition the wires on the cap) and would be happy if it weren't for the fact THAT fig. says it's for the 56 Golden Hawk... :confused:
So....
Do I just ignore this a "No Biggie" and go watch football till the manual arrives?
Do I read more forums till I'm cross eyed and hunch backed?
Do I cast that car out into the rain and bring my 58 Jimmy in for the body work its been waiting a year for.... sacrificing itself for the 'fragile complexion' of the fiberglass and its someday face lift. (Yes, I read those forum posts about 'Keep It Dry'....)


Dist # IBS 4012
Engine #R 2233
Body# 63-RQ 2229
Frame # 63R 3137

Bud
11-15-2010, 05:34 PM
Remove the number 1 spark plug and crank the engine with your finger in the plug hole. You will feel pressure on your finger when the the #1 piston is on the compression stroke. Watch the timing mark on the crankshaft for the timing mark which should line up with the 4 degree mark on the timing tab. The distributor rotor should be at the 6 oclock position when looking from the front of the engine if the distributor is installed correctly. Remember that the drive gears are spiral cut so be sure to drop in the distributor with the rotor pointing at about the 7 oclock position, it will be at 6 oclock when the distributor has picked up the oil pump drive and dropped into the hole in the block. The vacuum advance vacuum line fitting should be somewhere around the 9 oclock position if the distributor is installed correctly and the rotor is at 6 oclock. You should be able to get the engine running and then set the timing at around 4 deg btdc with the engine at idle. Bud

R1 3137
11-15-2010, 05:59 PM
I am currently sitting on the described mark @ the Harmonic Balencer and the rotor is @ more like 9:30 or 10 o'clock (12 being front of the car) and the Vac Adv points about 1:30 or so (corner of manifold). There are only two positions the dist will fully seat. here and 180 from here which WOULD be the position in the middle Fig (2) at the page I linked. Unfortunatly what you describe doesn't fit what I have. and yes the correct stroke is in play. Thanks again for the feedback.
Rick

whacker
11-15-2010, 07:55 PM
I think you may be having problems with the location of the oil pump drive. You can make sure you have the pistons and timing mark in the correct postion, then pull the distributor and use something like a big screwdriver to rotate the slot in the oil pump drive shaft so that the distributor will engage it. Do not force it, as it is easy to break the oil pump, and it is a bitch to replace with the engine in the car. Otherwise, Bud's description is correct.

StudeRich
11-15-2010, 09:07 PM
I simplify the whole process, I just do as Bud said; compression in #1 AND, Timing mark on IGN. (4 Degrees)

THEN, drop the Dist. in and start the Rotor at 7:00, drop down to mesh the Cam Gear at almost 6:00 and this is looking at the engine, NOT in the driver's seat as you are trying to do, always point the Rotor straight FORWARD when completely done!

THEN use a remote starter button or jumper wire from the Small "S" terminal on the Solenoid (Relay) to the Batt. (+) and do not bump the starter until you are gently pushing down on the Dist. it will fall into the Oil Pump slot and drop all the way to the block, and you KNOW it is good, and the proper Cap wiring will put #1 wire STRAIGHT forward at the Rotor position!

AND BE SAFE; ALWAYS CHECK THE TRANS. FOR PARK OR NEUTRAL POSITION, BLOCK WHEELS, SET PARKING BRAKE -FIRST, and make sure that the Cap and coil wire are nowhere near the Dist.!

Timing made easy! :DI've done it all kinds of ways, used to try to line up the Oil Pump with my "new engine" Oil Pump priming rod, but it's just too much trouble and can still miss the spot!

R1 3137
11-15-2010, 10:54 PM
Thanks again guys for this feedback/Push in a new configuration....
First off 12 oclock it towards the carb or front of the engine
6 is towards the firewall
and 9 the drivers side fender unless we're counting the counter clock wise travel of the rotor which would make it three...
That is how I have understood things to be regardless of how one is positioned around the car...
so first off.. can I get an amen on that point or am I (or at least my ears) about to burn?
Because lord knows I need one or the other.

The cars on jacks the wheels are off the tranny is in park and the coil is unplugged.
I have the remote starter switch hooked up and the valve covers are off.
I can/have watched the cycle and it is currently sitting at the comepression
(long time between I and E moving) part of the stroke.

http://picasaweb.google.com/StevenSeele/Avanti#5539997352967272178
http://picasaweb.google.com/StevenSeele/Avanti#5539997352967272178

here is the way it sits at the timing mark


and this is the way the rotor sits and the dist body is fully seated.
The front of the engine is photo left as viewed.

http://picasaweb.google.com/StevenSeele/Avanti#5539997373854081250
http://picasaweb.google.com/StevenSeele/Avanti#5539997373854081250

and finally here is the page from Bob's Studebaker site that has my shorts in a knot

http://picasaweb.google.com/StevenSeele/Avanti02#5539999094273757762
http://picasaweb.google.com/StevenSeele/Avanti02#5539999094273757762

At this point I'm most interested in learning what the Factory setup up is
because what ever this 'was' it ran... but that didn't impress me much.
If I'm going to this much effort I'd like it to be original

so before I try turning the oil shaft I'd like to know that the plug wire
from cylinder #6 really goes at the 'firewall most spot' on the cap
(6 oclock if the 'front' written to the right of the fig. is 12 oclock per the left hand fig.) (assuming the photo actually posts)
Or Not... because what I'm reading here from you guys ( who all sound Way more knowledgeable than I)
is that this diagram is all backwards...
And PLEASE if this drawing is bogus would someone please say so????

Its just like me to find the difficult answers only
to find out the perceptions of truth in the part of the universe it originated in
are different from the part I find myself in...
But like the Man's Prayer states
I Can Change
If I Have To
I Guess

Bud
11-16-2010, 07:37 AM
When looking at the front of the engine, 12 oclock is facing the firewall and 6 oclock is facing the rear of the carburetor. Like Rich says, drop the distributor in with the rotor facing at about 7 oclock. If the oil pump drive doesn't pick up the oil pump shaft, crank the engine until the drive drops into the oil pump and recheck the position of the rotor after cranking the engine to 4deg btdc on the timing tab with compression on the #1 cylinder which is the front cylinder on the drivers side. The rotor should be facing the rear of the carburetor if the distributor is installed correctly and the vacuum advance can should be facing the 9 oclock position if the distributor is installed correctly. The firing order is 18436572. Bud

StudeRich
11-16-2010, 01:13 PM
Your engine "runs" because BOTH the Dist. location and the Rotor position are wrong from the correct factory recommended position. Forget all that, and do as Bud & I have told you and you can't go wrong, yes it is NOW WRONG per your photo!
The position of the wires in the cap is probably correct, but should be checked per Bob Johnstone's Diagram, which by the way is only REPRESENTATIVE of a '51-'64 V-8 because it's of a early Delco Dist. larger than a Prestolite and has the cap clips in slightly different position.
Just pull the Dist. and install correctly. Note that with the Rotor at 4:00 and the Vacuum advance at 8:00 there is no room to retard the timing, and it's hitting the Intake.

R1 3137
11-17-2010, 12:05 PM
Your engine "runs" because BOTH the Dist. location and the Rotor position are wrong from the correct factory recommended position. Forget all that, and do as Bud & I have told you and you can't go wrong, yes it is NOW WRONG per your photo!
The position of the wires in the cap is probably correct, but should be checked per Bob Johnstone's Diagram, which by the way is only REPRESENTATIVE of a '51-'64 V-8 because it's of a early Delco Dist. larger than a Prestolite and has the cap clips in slightly different position.
Just pull the Dist. and install correctly. Note that with the Rotor at 4:00 and the Vacuum advance at 8:00 there is no room to retard the timing, and it's hitting the Intake.

Thanks for the patience in this guys.
I finally built a tool long and skinny enough to reach the oil pump and made the adjustment there and it now looks correct. That was my issue....
I haven't tried to fire it yet as I want to replace the valve cover grommets and won't have those in hand till later today. I'll post the results when I have something.

Thanks again
Rick