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jtjim
09-06-2010, 08:44 AM
In discussing a local guy who once owned a very fast Lark Daytona with what I believe was an R-4 engine, it was recalled that while he was in the service someone "sugared" his gas tank and the engine was ruined. He supposedly was able to buy a new complete engine through the local Studebaker dealer. This engine was supposed to be one of 10 that were built by Granitelli---347 cu in, dual carbs and dual superchargers, and tubular headers! It was reported to be called an "R-7" or "R-8" I believe that this has become an urban legend around here. I recall that his origional Daytona was very fast. I have no knowledge of later engines or mods. However, I have been dealing with Studebakers for a long time and have never heard of a 347 cu in engine. I think Granatelli used a highly modified engine at Bonneville with dual Paxtons. Has anyone ever heard of an engine available through a dealer larger that 304 cu in? Was any engine available through a dealer with 2 Paxtons? I would like to be able to either verify or debunk this legend.

monomaniac
09-06-2010, 08:47 AM
I don't believe the first car was an R4 and the rest of the story is total fairy tale.

jclary
09-06-2010, 09:14 AM
I don't believe the first car was an R4 and the rest of the story is total fairy tale.
Yeah...even a lying fairy probably wouldn't waste his time spinning a yarn like that!

BobPalma
09-06-2010, 09:22 AM
In discussing a local guy who once owned a very fast Lark Daytona with what I believe was an R-4 engine, it was recalled that while he was in the service someone "sugared" his gas tank and the engine was ruined. He supposedly was able to buy a new complete engine through the local Studebaker dealer. This engine was supposed to be one of 10 that were built by Granitelli---347 cu in, dual carbs and dual superchargers, and tubular headers! It was reported to be called an "R-7" or "R-8" I believe that this has become an urban legend around here. I recall that his origional Daytona was very fast. I have no knowledge of later engines or mods. However, I have been dealing with Studebakers for a long time and have never heard of a 347 cu in engine. I think Granatelli used a highly modified engine at Bonneville with dual Paxtons. Has anyone ever heard of an engine available through a dealer larger that 304 cu in? Was any engine available through a dealer with 2 Paxtons? I would like to be able to either verify or debunk this legend.

Whew! Somebody has been growing some tall tales, Jim. You are correct in saying the car has become "an urban legend around here!"

Anyway, to help you straighten anyone out:

1. Studebaker did ship one R4-powered 1964 Daytona...to California for the Gene Booth Road Test in the January 1964 Car Life magazine. The car still exists but the R4 was removed early in its life...still in California, AFAIK. It's doubtful that your friend ever owned that specific car.

2. Neither Studebaker nor Granatelli ever shipped any replacement Studebaker V-8 engines of more than 304.5 cubic inches.

3. A 340 (not 347) cubic inch Studebaker V-8 engine was developed and planned for the 1965 model year. Obviously, the original Studebaker South Bend Reality Show in December 1963 put the kabosh on those ambitious, and very real, plans.

4. There is/was no such thing as any R-series engine "more" than R5. (I.e., R-7, R-8, etc...)

Even the R5 engine was "one-off," never intended for retail sale. It did have two superchargers but did not have two 4-barrel carburetors; it was fuel injected.

5. Studebaker did not develop or offer any R-series engine with two superchargers, either as original equipment or as a replacement engine assembly. Undoubtedly, Granatelli & Company played with such possibilities in Santa Monica at Paxton Products, but there is no record of any such engine ever having been released.

Thanks for the post, though, Jim; we need to keep track of how tall the "tale tree" is growing as the years pass. It sounds like it is being well watered and fertilized...and you know another name for fertilizer in a cattle feed lot...and least where the bulls are allowed to relieve themselves. <GGG>

Bob Palma
Technical Editor
Turning Wheels

Chantony
09-06-2010, 09:42 AM
I believe JDP once had one of the experimental 340 blocks and I'd heard of a 360 block in the 70's,but I'm sure the 360 block fell under the cow fertilizer category.One Studebaker owner in W.A. has a 59 Silver Hawk and used to tell people it had a 352 big block and that STP stood for Studebaker Top Power. At least the Stude motor looks big enough to have been 352 cubes....Ahhh well....
I do know of a Stude motor taken out to 347 cubes over this way.

bezhawk
09-06-2010, 05:16 PM
Don't let us forget about the fuel injected all aluminum V-12 Packard design. The one with the twin stacked novi blowers.( that they were forced to melt under strict supervision of government mandate and GM)!!!

JDP
09-06-2010, 05:30 PM
I think a half dozen 340's were cast. The block I actually saw was one of two a Studebaker engineer owned. The other one was in his C cab truck with twin blowers. He claimed they just modified the sand casting to pour the blocks, and got one good one for every 10 attempts. I passed on buying a lot of his stuff, in hindsight, a big mistake. he even had a fuel injection unit they were playing with in 56-57. One item he had, I could not figure out. It was a 1/8 or 1/16 stoker crank that he claimed I could use with stock pistons.

jtjim
09-06-2010, 07:11 PM
OK!! Back in the day, when I was younger---this guy was known as a bull----er. I was not aware until lately that some of his tales were still alive. It is good to have the straight poop. I will be sure that the information reaches the interested parties. Was it possible to order a complete R3 or R4 engine through a dealer? Was it possible to order a short block or long block 304.? Thanks for all the input. I hope you enjoyed the tale.

JDP
09-06-2010, 07:34 PM
OK!! Back in the day, when I was younger---this guy was known as a bull----er. I was not aware until lately that some of his tales were still alive. It is good to have the straight poop. I will be sure that the information reaches the interested parties. Was it possible to order a complete R3 or R4 engine through a dealer? Was it possible to order a short block or long block 304.? Thanks for all the input. I hope you enjoyed the tale.

Studebaker dealers could get them from Paxton, and so could the general public, and at fire sale prices after the end of South Bend production.

53k
09-06-2010, 08:01 PM
Studebaker dealers could get them from Paxton, and so could the general public, and at fire sale prices after the end of South Bend production.
The crate R-3 and R-4 engines I had shipped back from Ireland were purchased directly from Granatellis and were shipped to the English buyer from Paxton- no Studebaker involvement.

BobPalma
09-06-2010, 08:56 PM
OK!! Was it possible to order a complete R3 or R4 engine through a dealer? Was it possible to order a short block or long block 304.? Thanks for all the input. I hope you enjoyed the tale.

Absolutely! As JDP says, they were selling them dirt cheap at fire sale prices after the South Bend production line closed.

Cousin George Krem still has the original invoice for the complete new R3 engine he bought from Paxton Products through Pabich Motors, the Studebaker dealer in Roselle IL. This is the R3 engine we put in his new 1964 Challenger 2-door to create what would become The Plain Brown Wrapper. I helped him pry the crate from around that engine in January 1965, when the two of us installed it in his "new" Challenger.

George's total cost for the complete R3 engine was right at $775, IIRC; I have a copy of the invoice here but am too lazy to dig it out right now. That included the optional dual valve springs and a side order of the header exhaust pipes needed to connect the R3 headers to the car's stock dual exhaust system, header pipes that were packed in the crate with the engine. BP

Jim B PEI
09-06-2010, 09:06 PM
Like all good and untrue stories there is usually a fact or two out there hanging around somewhere, or it just couldn't have that ring of plausible possibility. This sounds like a wild mishmash of the 340 blocks (true, but...) and confounding Golden Hawks of the 289 supercharged variety with the original Golden Hawk with the Packard 352 and then the Packard engines as in the Caribbean with their 374 engine with the twin 4 bbl carbs...so twin carbs, twin superchargers, a new 347 (it couldn't be a 374 boring out of a 289??, must be a 347) etc.

"So there were 9 R3 somethings, and 1 R4 something, hey, I can beat that for rarity! #1 0f 0 made!! " :)

gearhead49
09-06-2010, 09:18 PM
Gotta love them urban legends!!!!!!
I wish I heard this one before I shared a Diet Coke with Bigfoot earlier this evening.

JDP
09-06-2010, 09:30 PM
I recall we were dicussing the dual 4 barrel, 374's Golden Hawks when they were new. There was a least one dealer installed job runnng around South Bend at the time. There were in fact part numbers and blue prints issused for a 56 GH power pack, but it was never realeased. It was a bolt in, so I'm sure a few were made after the fact, and I suspect Studebaker might have played with the idea in the engineering department, but never sold any.

Flashback
09-06-2010, 09:36 PM
DO ya reckon this might be on of them R-8's in my 53. Shore does look likit. I heard it was.

jlmccuan
09-06-2010, 09:48 PM
Gentlemen,
I have heard for a long time that Studebaker never manufactured for sale an engine over 304.5 CID. It is time to set the record straight. Studebaker, did in fact, manufacture and sell many, many vehicles with engines over 350 CID !! Not only have I seen and heard these engines, I have had my hands in the oil and grease. No urban legend, "no brag, just fact" as the man used to say. I can supply pictures, years of production, and serial number of vehicle so equipped. Anybody want to bet lunch on this ??

mbstude
09-06-2010, 10:04 PM
I'm with you, Jim. Of course, those gigantic powerplants were produced just a few years before the R series engines...

Unless you know something I don't know. Which is highly possible.

jlmccuan
09-06-2010, 10:18 PM
You got it figure out, Matt. And we're not talking Packard, either. Genuine Stude.

JDP
09-06-2010, 10:21 PM
Gentlemen,
I have heard for a long time that Studebaker never manufactured for sale an engine over 304.5 CID. It is time to set the record straight. Studebaker, did in fact, manufacture and sell many, many vehicles with engines over 350 CID !! Not only have I seen and heard these engines, I have had my hands in the oil and grease. No urban legend, "no brag, just fact" as the man used to say. I can supply pictures, years of production, and serial number of vehicle so equipped. Anybody want to bet lunch on this ??

Big Six, from the teens and 20's

jlmccuan
09-06-2010, 10:26 PM
Exactly. Gotta watch those legends, some are true. I know a gentleman with a Commander with over 350CID. Of course, it is prewar.

mbstude
09-06-2010, 10:28 PM
Jim, as a board member of the Antique Studebaker Club, I demand that you email me photos. <grin>

JDP
09-06-2010, 10:43 PM
Exactly. Gotta watch those legends, some are true. I know a gentleman with a Commander with over 350CID. Of course, it is prewar.

Sorta like what year did Chevy first have a V8.

woodysrods
09-06-2010, 10:53 PM
Wow! That was exhuasting. I am still trying to get someone to tell me how many horsepower a 1961 C/K Hawk 289 had???
Brian

mbstude
09-06-2010, 10:59 PM
Sorta like what year did Chevy first have a V8.

Pretty sure it was 1917, or thereabout.

8E45E
09-06-2010, 11:02 PM
Sorta like what year did Chevy first have a V8.

Been covered already:

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?31815-1918-Chev-V8&highlight=1918

Craig

Welcome
09-06-2010, 11:36 PM
I recall we were dicussing the dual 4 barrel, 374's Golden Hawks when they were new. There was a least one dealer installed job runnng around South Bend at the time. There were in fact part numbers and blue prints issused for a 56 GH power pack, but it was never realeased. It was a bolt in, so I'm sure a few were made after the fact, and I suspect Studebaker might have played with the idea in the engineering department, but never sold any.

IF …one has enough influence, anything is possible in the automotive world!!!

Last week I tracked down what was left of a '56 Golden Hawk with "factory air conditioning" ...that never existed!! !;)

I don't know much about "R" engines, other than the one I could have bought at STUDEBAKER Salvage Dept. in late summer of '63 for all of $350. As a senior in High School back then , that $350. was like $35,000. is to me now. I still swear there were two of those orange whirly things hung on it and the block was painted blue. JDP, BP or anyone else buy or hear who did by an "R" engine from STUDEBAKER Salvage Dept. around that time???

I was in the automotive world long enough to know vehicles and even some special engines that were only “rumored” to exist, did actually exist. Some of those still do in private collections, on ranches in Nevada, New Mexico and on a private hunting club in northern Michigan ...to name just a few places

Bill Pressler
09-07-2010, 06:53 AM
Jim, BTW, welcome aboard! I've known Jim quite a while and his '64 Avanti is a stunner and Jim's only the second owner!

His Riv is a beauty too (I like the green...hey, it's not plum-colored or that gold they had that year!), and he used to have a stunning black R2 '63 GT that was a TW cover car way back when.

Other than that, I can't add to this discussion at all!

BobPalma
09-07-2010, 07:02 AM
Gentlemen,
I have heard for a long time that Studebaker never manufactured for sale an engine over 304.5 CID. It is time to set the record straight. Studebaker, did in fact, manufacture and sell many, many vehicles with engines over 350 CID !! Not only have I seen and heard these engines, I have had my hands in the oil and grease. No urban legend, "no brag, just fact" as the man used to say. I can supply pictures, years of production, and serial number of vehicle so equipped. Anybody want to bet lunch on this ??

OK, Jim; I edited my post to reflect the fact that we were talking Studebaker V-8s of the 1960s, the topic being addressed, and the questions being asked, by the thread's originator. <GGG> BP

JDP
09-07-2010, 10:30 AM
IF …one has enough influence, anything is possible in the automotive world!!!

Last week I tracked down what was left of a '56 Golden Hawk with "factory air conditioning" ...that never existed!! !;)

I don't know much about "R" engines, other than the one I could have bought at STUDEBAKER Salvage Dept. in late summer of '63 for all of $350. As a senior in High School back then , that $350. was like $35,000. is to me now. I still swear there were two of those orange whirly things hung on it and the block was painted blue. JDP, BP or anyone else buy or hear who did by an "R" engine from STUDEBAKER Salvage Dept. around that time???

I was in the automotive world long enough to know vehicles and even some special engines that were only “rumored” to exist, did actually exist. Some of those still do in private collections, on ranches in Nevada, New Mexico and on a private hunting club in northern Michigan ...to name just a few places

You got me there, I visited Standard Surplus from the days of the location in the old Packard dealership on Michigan street and never saw R series engines. The NOS Packard 352's were at the entrance of the first Sample St site though. BTW, 56 Golden Hawks with AC were rare, but at least one was built, and several were added later.

Welcome
09-07-2010, 10:57 AM
You got me there, I visited Standard Surplus from the days of the location in the old Packard dealership on Michigan street and never saw R series engines. The NOS Packard 352's were at the entrance of the first Sample St site though. BTW, 56 Golden Hawks with AC were rare, but at least one was built, and several were added later.

John, maybe I'm talking before your time!;):rolleyes:

The "R" engine I saw was in STUDEBAKER’s SALVAGE DEPT. ...not at any of those early Standard Surplus locations. IIRC STUDEBAKER's SALVAGE DEPT. was open M-F, 11 to 1 or some such hours. Did you go there???

And yes, I remember the NOS Packard engines at Standard Surplus's first Sample St. location and box after of NOS Rochester 4 bbl. carbs. used on other than 56J 352 engines and literally 100's of '53/'54 Stude gauge panels.

irish
09-07-2010, 11:12 AM
210HP with a 2 BBL and 225HP with a 4BBL

Wow! That was exhuasting. I am still trying to get someone to tell me how many horsepower a 1961 C/K Hawk 289 had???
Brian

M15 Trucker
09-07-2010, 01:06 PM
gentlemen,

i have heard for a long time that studebaker never manufactured for sale an engine over 304.5 cid. It is time to set the record straight. Studebaker, did in fact, manufacture and sell many, many vehicles with engines over 350 cid !! Not only have i seen and heard these engines, i have had my hands in the oil and grease. No urban legend, "no brag, just fact" as the man used to say. I can supply pictures, years of production, and serial number of vehicle so equipped. Anybody want to bet lunch on this ??

are we talking about m-35 trucks here? Did they have studebaker manufacturered engines or were they made by an outside engine manufacturer like hercules?

Mike

JDP
09-07-2010, 01:44 PM
are we talking about m-35 trucks here? Did they have studebaker manufacturered engines or were they made by an outside engine manufacturer like hercules?

Mike

No, the big six engines from the teens and 20's were 354's, aome other pre war engines were well over 300.