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S Wing
09-05-2010, 12:19 PM
Hi everyone, I am a new member of the forum as of today. I have a 57 Silver Hawk which I have had for 30 years , I took it apart 29 years ago and now I have just pulled it out of the garage and intend to rebuild it. It is in a sorry state and needs a lot of work. First thing is to find out what engine it should have, I have the 175 CU In six in line flathead which was in it and a 185 six which was new old stock from Newman and Altman.Thinking about it today neither engine sems correct. I just looked at the fender tag and it says DF (or possibly OP) 70172 and below 670 13. On the engine mount it says 2165. Anyone know where I can find out about the car and what engine it had originally? Think I'm off to get me a TIG welder and a large quantity of steel sheet. Also anyone know where Newman and Altman's stock went? I think I need some parts.
Thanks for any help. Simon.

billmdonn
09-05-2010, 02:39 PM
My first car was a 1957 Silver Hawk flat head six. Good luck. From what I know Newman-Altman's stuff end up with Studebaker International. How about some photos. Here is a link.

http://www.studebaker-intl.com/2010_catalog.html

woodysrods
09-05-2010, 06:13 PM
Unless you are a TIG welder already and you are referring to welding on the body sheet metal....Don't buy a TIG welder! Get a MIG welder!
And, WELCOME to the FORUM! There are a lot of guys (& some Gals) on here that will supply you with almost any information you are looking for. And Fast!
Good Roads
Brian

Jim B PEI
09-05-2010, 07:17 PM
It might depend on where the car was assembled/what its serial number is as to whether you can get the build sheet from the Studebaker National Museum. Canadian built, for example, you are out of luck for a 57. If you have the car serial number, you can always email the museum to see if they can provide a build sheet, or perhaps Andy Beckman the archivist can help you get further info if they can't provide it--it never hurts to ask. You mention fender tag but do you mean the body tags on the cowl/firewall? A body tag should start 57G then either C3 if a pillared coupe or K3 if a hardtop coupe, for a Silver Hawk. After that there should be a sequence number for the body, like 2345--see my signature for what I mean. What about the driver's door post between the hinges? I have no idea about the Belgium assembled cars (which would be LHD presumably) or when exactly the cars were assembled in South Africa (right hand drive presumably). The numbering system could be quite different. That 70172# sounds like it could a serial# sequence from someplace other than North America, where the two existing plants in 1957 had numbers 700,000s or 1.3 millions for sixes. The build sheet would confirm, but the 55-58 cars should be a 185 flathead. The 170 flathead before 55 and the 170 flathead for 59-60 are a bit different. With the introduction of the 185 which has the same bore as the 170 and just a longer stroke, the deck height was increased. When they reverted to the 170 for 59-60, they kept the increased deck height of the 185 engines. N&A and SASCO parts are all now with Studebaker-International. They have two locations, including one in South Bend where they moved the SASCO South Bend parts to recently. Send them an email if you don't find it in their catalogue--they have a LOT of stuff which is NOT YET online with their new acquisition.

You said 175(??) six came with the car? It should be a 185, but it could be a 170 for some reason, such as an engine replaced after it was built but before you got it 30 years ago. I think an earlier--or later--170 flathead would bolt up in place of the correct 185. The Newman and Altman 185 would be correct for your car--I have two 1957 flathead six sedans, and how I wish there were still NOS 185 flatheads for sale! Here is a site with specs for a lot of cars:
http://www.carnut.com/specs/specs.html

S Wing
09-06-2010, 03:17 PM
Thanks for the link. I will get some photos at the weekend when I move the Hawk into my garage for a closer inspection. It looks pretty rusty-but that can all be fixed in time. I see that Classic Enterprises make some of the frame braces etc which I'm going to need.

S Wing
09-06-2010, 03:22 PM
I have a MIG Brian, and just restored a Dodge Charger with it- but I thought the TIG might cause less distortion on the sheet metal. I've not used one though, but they look like a useful bit of kit on 'American Hotrod' If you think the MIG is better I may as well stay with that. It looks fairly bad beneath the sill line. That 46 M series looks great they have always been a favourite of mine.Is that 30% gloss?
Simon.

S Wing
09-06-2010, 03:37 PM
Thanks for your detailed reply Jim. I think my Hawk is from Belgium, I just remembered that the speedometer is in KM/Hour. Its left hand drive and pilarless with the silver hawk fins. I will get a better look for any other identification at the weekend when I can move it out into a slightly larger garage. The 185 flathead I have does not fit the auto transmission which the 170 came off- which now I recall is why the rebuild stopped all those years ago. as I remember, the engine plate between the transmission bellhousing and engine block had a different shaft alignment and bolt pattern. When I got the new 185 it arrived in a crate with a note saying that N+A had run out of assembled engines so they sent all the components needed to make one up- all still in the original boxes and greaseproof wrappings. I still have all the boxes etc on the garage shelf where I live now. First thing to decide is which engine I put in it- I feel that it needs a v8 but that I should stick to the original spec. Any idea what the transmission is? Did Studebaker make their own or use a Borg Warner or similar? It would seem crazy for a company like Studebaker to make their own.
Thanks for all the information I appreciate your help.
Simon

StudeRich
09-06-2010, 04:13 PM
If your trans. is correct, it likely is a Cast Iron Case Borg Warner Flight-O-Matic, very similar to the dependable Ford-O-Matic, Cruise-O-Matic, Merc-O-Matic, AMC Flash-O-Matic & Shift Command, also used in Jeep Wagoneer, Aircraft Tugs and in Power Shift (floor shift) version, in Avanti II, with 305, 327, 350 & 400 c.i.d. Corvette engines.

Most 6 cyl. Trans. have the low gear start which they certainly need. The correct Converter Housing (which will need dial indicated for center), the adapter plate and torque converter will be needed to connect the correct NOS 185 Engine you have to the the Flight-O-Matic.

This car would be a very rare Silver Hawk 6, K body Hardtop.
Isn't there a Serial Number Plate on the drivers door post with the 57GXXXXX Serial Number?
Over here, most of us have no idea how the Belgium cars were assembled, I believe they were (KD) knockdowns, so were not put together like a Studebaker Factory built car.

woodysrods
09-06-2010, 04:34 PM
Good eye Simon. This particular paint starts out Flat, and we mixed 20% gloss to it.
Brian

Ricardo
09-06-2010, 09:04 PM
Hi everyone, I am a new member of the forum as of today.
Thanks for any help. Simon. Simon: There exist a very good Studebaker Club in UK: contact: Studebaker Owners Club UK
Website:
www.studebakerownersclub.org.uk
Contact:
Paul Eccles
Hardman Fold House Hardman Fold
Green Ln
Bolton Lanes BL3 2LX
England – UK
Tel: +44 (1204) 529 753
Fax: +44 (1204) 520 538

Paul is a real gentlemen as well as other people I knew years ago. They will help you

S Wing
09-08-2010, 04:10 PM
StudeRich
I am finding out more every day , thanks for the information. It looks like the transmission may be rebuildable if its a Borg Warner. It also looks like I might have to rebuild the 170 CU In motor to get one that fits- I now remember that the sump from the 170 was too small to fit the new 185 I got. Will have a look at the door post this weekend and start to see if there are any records for Belgian built cars.Looks like it had an engine swap at some point maybe it was origimnally a V8 although the smaller six would make more sense in the economic climate in the UK in the 50'S. Then again if you're buying a new studebaker Hawk in the 50's perhaps fuel consumption was not an issue. Thanks for your help.
Simon.

Jim B PEI
09-08-2010, 04:34 PM
Simon, If your Belgium Hawk originally had an earlier 170 with a pre-55 block rather than the North American 185 design, that is interesting. Up to 55, the Detroit Gear automatic was used, but I am not aware that there was a difference in how the DG and the Flightomatic bolted up to either the 170 lower deck and the 185/170 higher deck, either in bolt placement or any other adjustment. By sump you mean the engine oil pan, I guess (I am so used to hearing sump generally for the automatic transmission oil pan--must be a local thing here) My parts books only go back to 55, so I am also unaware about the difference in sump either. Perhaps someone with both engines can chime in?

raprice
09-08-2010, 04:58 PM
Simon,
Welcome to the world of Studebakers. I can already see that you've received a good deal of advice from our forum members. I strongly recommend that you join the Studebaker Drivers Club. Each month there is a tremendous amount of information that may help you. Also, there is a section in the monthly magazine, "Turning Wheels", called the Cooperator. Here you can pick up some good restoration advice. You can even ask questions concerning the restoration of your car. By all means, join the Studebaker Owners Club.org.uk.
Best of luck.
Rog

fatboylust
09-08-2010, 05:03 PM
Once upon a time (1965) my bother had 1953 Jaguar Mk VII. The torque converter (TC) when wrong leaving him stranded on the side of the road. The car was towed to our house and my dad began repairers. Once the transmission was identified as a Cast Iron Case Borg Warner and the TC was found to be the problem the replacement TC was sourced from a Studebaker part number as there is/was no Jaguar dealership locally. So in London there may be an old Jaguar shop who is very failure with your transmission and TC.

S Wing
09-10-2010, 07:48 AM
Thanks ROG. I will rejoin both the Drivers and owners clubs. I used to belong to both before I bought a Charger asa daily runabiut while I fixed up the Studebaker. Then the Charger turned into a four year full restoration itself and that led to all things Mopar-a little drag racing etc. But now it really is time to get the Hawk back on the road. The good thing is that I picked uo a lot of tools and resto knowledge on the Charger and the Studebaker rebuild does'nt seem as impossible as it used to.
Simon

S Wing
09-10-2010, 07:56 AM
Jim B .
When I get the chance I will measure up the blocks to see where they differ. The old cylinder head bolted straight on , so only some parts vary. I will get the trans out and look for some part numbers. Yes I did mean the oil pan by Sump, we tend to use sump for transmission and engine pans.
Where I used to work in central London there was a design firm next door called 'Lowey' and a guy who worked there had an Avanti. I think I know where they are now so I may drop by to see if they have any old records-perhaps of the Belgian assembly. Not probable I think.
SAimon.

S Wing
09-10-2010, 08:00 AM
Thank you Mr Lust.
In the 70s when I was looking for a new starter Bendix the local American parts dealer looked at it and said that I needed a Jaguar part- so there seems to be a link.
It looks like the previous owner shifted into park at speed and tore the ring gear teeth off the TC as well as wrecking the starter. Still -if you really need to stop quickly..
Simon.

go-studebaker
09-10-2010, 04:27 PM
Hi Simon,
your Studebaker is built in Belgium by D'Ieteren Fres. D'Ieteren had a fire years ago and their records were burnt. They are older than Studebaker having started in 1805 building wagon wheels. The did build Napoleons wedding coach, and are probably in the top 10 companies in Belgium and the only one still family owned. Their personal museum is sensational. The production records from SB will only give a limited view of the car as sent to D'Ieteren.

I have parts for that car here in the UK if you need some spares

Call me on 01926 733 484 I am up in Warwick

The D'Ieteren built cars were far better built than their American Cousins, but generally all 6 cylinders. They did have an optional leather interior if you ordered an 8cyl. Does your car have a sunroof?

Regards
Greg Diffen

S Wing
09-13-2010, 07:55 AM
Thanks for your reply Greg. My Hawk has no sun roof or leather interior. I got the transmission out yesterday and it's a cast iron Borg Warner. It looks like it's in good condition if it is ,its the only thing that is. The trans has a red oval plate on it which I think means that it was a 185 engine. So someone has swapped in a 170 at some time. I have a manual for the car but this does not say if there should be a plate between the bellhousing and the engine block, I think that the one on my 170 was made up perhaps as an adaptor. The plate from the drivers door jamb has been removed and there are no build sheets in the car. What i aim to find out is if the transmission will bolt up to a Stude V8, with the exception of the 1st gear start they may be the same.Then I just need to find a Stude V8 ,you don't happen to have one in your spares do you Greg? I will take you up on your kind offer and call to see what spares you have-from my inspection on Sunday it looks like there is a lot of welding to get through first. StudeRich was right about the transmission, reading his reply again it looks like another bellhousing and torque convertor woukd be needrd for a V8 installation. I know many people would argue against this but as it is not the original engine in the car, if the new engine is a Studebaker I think this is OK.
Simon.

christophe
09-13-2010, 08:33 AM
Hi Simon,

I've been in touch with D'Ieteren Museum. They're very helpful and provided me all the info they got about my 63 GT even the name of the miss who ordered the car. Here's the mail: catherine.rommelaere@dieteren.be. If you want I can ask for you. About the Studebaker's assembled in Belgium, I know that they were shipped by batch of 25. That's on my production order.

Best of luck with your car.

Christophe

S Wing
09-13-2010, 03:44 PM
Bonjour Christophe, thank you for your reply. It is very interesting to hear of your success in getting information on your car from D'Iteren. What information did you have to give them? I think I have a D'Iteren assembly number on the firewall but not much else. I will look for the logbook today which I have somewhere, with any luck there will be a VIN number on it. If you can find any information on the Studebakers assembled in Belgium that would be fantastic. I just looked up production numbers in Richard Langworth's book 'Studebaker the post war years' which gives a figure of 183 exported Hawks in 1957. Not many.
I can feel myself being drawn once more into the world of Studebaker
Regards Simon.

christophe
09-14-2010, 03:02 AM
Hi Simon,

I gave them the chassis number. In your case, it should begin with 57S. It's the plate welded at the driver's door front post. There was no VIN yet in 1957. If the chassis number is missing, if think they can find the trace of your car with the fabrication number, the one on the firewall. This is the D'Ietren assembly number. Mine is 30302 so yours should be also 5 digits coded. There is also the secret chassis number stamped on the frame at the rear of the car that can help you. The great thing with D'Ietren is that they kept all their archives and have info on each car they built but don't forget to get also your production order from the Studebaker Museum. I strongly suggest you'll get the documentation on CD-ROM, it's very useful.
Best regards.

Bob Andrews
09-14-2010, 05:21 AM
Also anyone know where Newman and Altman's stock went? I think I need some parts.
Thanks for any help. Simon.

Here's where:

http://www.studebaker-intl.com/

One-stop shop for most everything!

Also, anything else you will ever need can be found here:

http://www.studebakervendors.com/

S Wing
09-14-2010, 07:31 AM
Thanks Christophe. The plate on the drivers door post is missing but the secret chassis number sounds promising. Does the location of this vary?
I have to join the SDC and get in touch with the Museum.Could not find the log book last night, its there somewhere.
Regards. Simon.

8E45E
09-15-2010, 07:38 PM
Hi Simon,

I've been in touch with D'Ieteren Museum. They're very helpful and provided me all the info they got about my 63 GT even the name of the miss who ordered the car. Here's the mail: catherine.rommelaere@dieteren.be. If you want I can ask for you. About the Studebaker's assembled in Belgium, I know that they were shipped by batch of 25. That's on my production order.

Best of luck with your car.

Christophe

This one appeared in the April, 2010 issue of "Autoretro", a French vintage car magazine. Thanks to one of those 'intant translation' wesites, I was able to enter the caption and obtain the text in broken English. Are you familiar with it as you are in France? It also appears to be a rare hardtop Silver Hawk going by the photo:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4105/4994721076_0240eebf1d_b.jpg

"Sold new in France in 1957, the beautiful American has motor V8 was occasion to buy in 1973 by the grandfather of Thierry on the counsels of the latter. She is remained in a barn in 1980 through 2002 with the ecureuils and the mice! I next did it to restore in Spain in Vigo for eight years. From the chassis to the dashboard, the work is exemplary. You will be able view at the time of the Classic days at the Magny-cours the first weekend of May. Unless Thierry not itself there returns with his second Studebaker of 1957 but equippee this time of a six cylinders."

Craig

christophe
09-16-2010, 02:22 AM
Hi all,

I'm sorry but I can't make the quote function to work properly.
So,
Simon, one of the last issues of Turning Wheels was dealing with the secret number location. It remember it can vary. I'll check the article and let you know. I think there was a thread about this a little time ago on the forum. I'll check this too.
Craig, I don't know this car though it appears by the license plate that she's not very far from my home. Actually, I'm quite new to the Studebaker world. I bought my car last year and became an SDC member on last january. Studabakers are scarce here and I've seldom seen one during my +25 years of interest in vintage cars. It seems that most of them are 6 cylinders, because of the high taxes and the price of gasoline I suppose. The instant translation is fairly good. You just have to understand "sold new" instead of "sold nine" and "grand dad" instead of "big pere".
Have a nice day.

Christophe

christophe
09-16-2010, 02:36 AM
Here's the link:
http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?31416-VIN-off-the-wall-question&highlight=secret+number

8E45E
09-16-2010, 07:04 AM
Hi all,
The instant translation is fairly good. You just have to understand "sold new" instead of "sold nine" and "grand dad" instead of "big pere".
Have a nice day.

Thanks! I have fixed that in the original text, as 'sold nine' would be misleading.

Craig

Jim B PEI
09-16-2010, 07:49 AM
Gotta love those instant translators! They make everyone sound equally stilted in every language ;)
I would make one more change or two into colloquial English just to make it clearer. ...Sold new in France in 1957, the beautiful American V8 was purchased *used* in 1973......It was in a barn from 1980 through 2002, along with the squirrels and the dormice....Unless Thierry arrives there with another 57 Studebaker, this (second) one equipped however with a six.

S Wing
09-20-2010, 09:47 AM
Thanks Christophe, I had a good look at the chassis on Sunday but no numbers. Perhaps this was not done on export models as it is a USA requirement. Also could not find the logbook- so no ID at all currently. While I was under the car i cleaned up as much of the drivetrain as I could> It looks in good condition as it was covered in oil, but the floor braces, sills etc have long departed.
Simon

go-studebaker
09-20-2010, 03:14 PM
Hi Simon,
those numbers on the chassis are always hard to find. They are either on the rear cross member or on the one above the diff. If you car has corrosion in those areas they may not exist any more. They may or may not be on D'Ieteren cars, but if they are they may not match the serial no depending on how they assembled them. Unless you have a very clean chassis you may never be able to see the imprint.

I have a NOS set of sills here ad a 289 V8 with Auto and a full power steer unit if you want to make it go a little faster and steer a little lighter, plus maybe some bigger brakes.

There was a D'Ieteren 58 golden hawk up here in Warwick on the weekend with factory webasto sunroof and full leather interior that the US cars never had.

D'Ieteren sold a lot of cars in Europe and they were available from the UK consessionaires generally for a cheaper price than the fully imported US cars, but of course it would have to be LHC.

Regards
Greg

8E45E
09-20-2010, 06:24 PM
There was a D'Ieteren 58 golden hawk up here in Warwick on the weekend with factory webasto sunroof and full leather interior that the US cars never had.


There was one officially made in South Bend with a leather interior for a Studebaker employee (R.A. Hutchinson) in 1958. There's mention of it on page 30 in September, 2007 TW.

Craig

S Wing
09-22-2010, 07:32 AM
Hi Greg I think the numbers have corroded away. I am certainly interested in your 289 and auto box. I have a set of pattern sills from Classic Enterprises which look fairly accurate. I will give you a call , I like the idea of a Stude V8, is it running?

Rrgards

OK I found the chassis number,G1379769. I will see what the Studebaker Museum can make of this.

S Wing
09-24-2010, 09:20 AM
Christophe I tried to contact Dieteren without success. But good news I have the chassis Number G 1379769. This is as recorded in the logbook. I will try to contact the Museum again.

Simon.

christophe
09-27-2010, 03:49 AM
Hi Simon,

I'll try a little mail to Mrs Rommelaere. She may only speaks french. I'll keep in touch.

S Wing
09-28-2010, 07:53 AM
Thank you Christophe,
I joined the Studenbaker Drivers club and the UK owners club and have ordered the production sheet from the Studebaker Museum based on the chassis number, so I am getting the paperwork inorder.
Took the interior out and removed the front two chassis cross members at the weekend so that I could see the state of the front body braces and how they are installed.
It looks like there is an outer sill an inner vertical sill and a further vertical bracing adjacent to the chassis rail- probably should say was. This looks similar to the torque boxes on the Avanti or the arrangement on the 60's Hawks. I only have the top inch of these elements left- but I would imagine that they are fairly simple to fabricate if I can find out what i should be fabricating. Does anyone have an opinion on wether these are structural? With the three braces eith er side in place supporting the outer sill it looks like the floor will be strong anyway.

Simon

fatboylust
09-28-2010, 08:47 AM
I found these cross-section views in a vendor parts catalog when looking similar information for my 52 HT (haven't found that yet) but it may be some what typical for your Hawk. Hope this helps.

christophe
10-01-2010, 02:46 AM
Hi Simon,

No news from Mrs Rommelaere yet. Here's a link about some metal parts though. http://www.classicent.com/coupes_hawks.php
Have a nice week end.

S Wing
10-04-2010, 04:09 PM
Christophe,
I have fantastic news from Ms Rommelaere, she has forwarded to me details of the original production date, order, engine number and other data I have not fully understood yet.Ms Rommelaere mentions that you contacted her to assist me in my search- so thank you for this \christophe. The amazing news is that the car was ordered by La Princess Therese de Caraman Chimany of Beauchamp Castle. I do notknow much about La Princess Therese but will certainly find out more. It seems that she was a very fashionable lady. Wow! I am off to the shed to find the flathead six that I removed thirty years agoto see if it is the original motor. Thanks again for your help Christophe I will post more news.

Simon

christophe
10-05-2010, 02:52 AM
Hi Simon,

Mrs Rommelaere replied to me too and gave me the data. She is really a very helpful person.

The first part of her mail is about the presentation of D'Ieteren's logbook. There are 6 columns.
1: Orders numbers (from 14255 to 17454). Yours is 15965.
2: Chasssis numbers (from 1357506 to 8477746). Yours is G.1379769.
3: Engines numbers (from E.1180469 to V.414208). Yours is 1203487.
4: Names of the customers and locations. La princesse Thérèse de Caraman
Chimay, Beauchamps-Chimay. That's in Belgium. (They make a nice beer there!)
5: Date of completion (from 13/01/1956 to 24/04/1959). Yours is 21/04/1958.
6: Invoices numbers (from 13/01/1956 - 24/04/1959). Yours is 20925.

So, now you have your car's historic and an historic car. I hope the engine's number will match.

Have a nice day.

S Wing
10-14-2010, 03:18 PM
I checked out my engine and it is not the original one so I think I can go for a V8. I have been looking at the Classic Enterprises body braces which are missing , it looks like I need afull set of six . Has anyone fitted these to their Hawks? If so how much work is involved? I will be working from under the car up on axle stands- it looks like they are welded in place with spot welds, but this is difficult to judge given their wn condition. Also anyond done a Turner disc brake conversion? they look like a good way to go. Imust say that stripping the car down for repair I remember why I left it alone for so long there is a huge ammount of work to do.Still ,a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step-and there are probably lots of pubs along the way.

Michidan
10-15-2010, 07:56 AM
Still ,a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step-and there are probably lots of pubs along the way.

If that isn't the right attitude for working on an old car, then I don't know what is. :)

S Wing
10-18-2010, 04:01 PM
Thanks Michidan. Just ordered up my repair panels from Classic Enterprises, and removed some of the old rusted out metal at the weekend. I will start on the front fenders while waiting for the new metal to arrive. First ,I have to align all the panel gaps and get things where I want them before the cutting and welding begins. It all looks like 18 gauge steel- which is good to work with. Should keep me warm through the winter months-nothing like a few hours welding on a frosty morning, then of course theres the grinding which the neighbours do'nt like so much.
Kalamazoo is a great address, i'm going to look it up to see just where it is.
Simon