57 Silver Hawk in London

[S Wing]

Hi everyone, I am a new member of the forum as of today. I have a 57 Silver Hawk which I have had for 30 years , I took it apart 29 years ago and now I have just pulled it out of the garage and intend to rebuild it. It is in a sorry state and needs a lot of work. First thing is to find out what engine it should have, I have the 175 CU In six in line flathead which was in it and a 185 six which was new old stock from Newman and Altman.Thinking about it today neither engine sems correct. I just looked at the fender tag and it says DF (or possibly OP) 70172 and below 670 13. On the engine mount it says 2165. Anyone know where I can find out about the car and what engine it had originally? Think I'm off to get me a TIG welder and a large quantity of steel sheet. Also anyone know where Newman and Altman's stock went? I think I need some parts.
Thanks for any help. Simon.

[billmdonn]

My first car was a 1957 Silver Hawk flat head six. Good luck. From what I know Newman-Altman's stuff end up with Studebaker International. How about some photos. Here is a link.

http://www.studebaker-intl.com/2010_catalog.html

[woodysrods]

Unless you are a TIG welder already and you are referring to welding on the body sheet metal....Don't buy a TIG welder! Get a MIG welder!
And, WELCOME to the FORUM! There are a lot of guys (& some Gals) on here that will supply you with almost any information you are looking for. And Fast!
Good Roads
Brian

[Jim B PEI]

It might depend on where the car was assembled/what its serial number is as to whether you can get the build sheet from the Studebaker National Museum. Canadian built, for example, you are out of luck for a 57. If you have the car serial number, you can always email the museum to see if they can provide a build sheet, or perhaps Andy Beckman the archivist can help you get further info if they can't provide it--it never hurts to ask. You mention fender tag but do you mean the body tags on the cowl/firewall? A body tag should start 57G then either C3 if a pillared coupe or K3 if a hardtop coupe, for a Silver Hawk. After that there should be a sequence number for the body, like 2345--see my signature for what I mean. What about the driver's door post between the hinges? I have no idea about the Belgium assembled cars (which would be LHD presumably) or when exactly the cars were assembled in South Africa (right hand drive presumably). The numbering system could be quite different. That 70172# sounds like it could a serial# sequence from someplace other than North America, where the two existing plants in 1957 had numbers 700,000s or 1.3 millions for sixes. The build sheet would confirm, but the 55-58 cars should be a 185 flathead. The 170 flathead before 55 and the 170 flathead for 59-60 are a bit different. With the introduction of the 185 which has the same bore as the 170 and just a longer stroke, the deck height was increased. When they reverted to the 170 for 59-60, they kept the increased deck height of the 185 engines. N&A and SASCO parts are all now with Studebaker-International. They have two locations, including one in South Bend where they moved the SASCO South Bend parts to recently. Send them an email if you don't find it in their catalogue--they have a LOT of stuff which is NOT YET online with their new acquisition.

You said 175(??) six came with the car? It should be a 185, but it could be a 170 for some reason, such as an engine replaced after it was built but before you got it 30 years ago. I think an earlier--or later--170 flathead would bolt up in place of the correct 185. The Newman and Altman 185 would be correct for your car--I have two 1957 flathead six sedans, and how I wish there were still NOS 185 flatheads for sale! Here is a site with specs for a lot of cars:

http://www.carnut.com/specs/specs.html

[S Wing]

Thanks for the link. I will get some photos at the weekend when I move the Hawk into my garage for a closer inspection. It looks pretty rusty-but that can all be fixed in time. I see that Classic Enterprises make some of the frame braces etc which I'm going to need.

[S Wing]

I have a MIG Brian, and just restored a Dodge Charger with it- but I thought the TIG might cause less distortion on the sheet metal. I've not used one though, but they look like a useful bit of kit on 'American Hotrod' If you think the MIG is better I may as well stay with that. It looks fairly bad beneath the sill line. That 46 M series looks great they have always been a favourite of mine.Is that 30% gloss?
Simon.

[S Wing]

Thanks for your detailed reply Jim. I think my Hawk is from Belgium, I just remembered that the speedometer is in KM/Hour. Its left hand drive and pilarless with the silver hawk fins. I will get a better look for any other identification at the weekend when I can move it out into a slightly larger garage. The 185 flathead I have does not fit the auto transmission which the 170 came off- which now I recall is why the rebuild stopped all those years ago. as I remember, the engine plate between the transmission bellhousing and engine block had a different shaft alignment and bolt pattern. When I got the new 185 it arrived in a crate with a note saying that N+A had run out of assembled engines so they sent all the components needed to make one up- all still in the original boxes and greaseproof wrappings. I still have all the boxes etc on the garage shelf where I live now. First thing to decide is which engine I put in it- I feel that it needs a v8 but that I should stick to the original spec. Any idea what the transmission is? Did Studebaker make their own or use a Borg Warner or similar? It would seem crazy for a company like Studebaker to make their own.
Thanks for all the information I appreciate your help.
Simon

[StudeRich]

Belgium Silver Hawk 6 Hardtop Coupe

If your trans. is correct, it likely is a Cast Iron Case Borg Warner Flight-O-Matic, very similar to the dependable Ford-O-Matic, Cruise-O-Matic, Merc-O-Matic, AMC Flash-O-Matic & Shift Command, also used in Jeep Wagoneer, Aircraft Tugs and in Power Shift (floor shift) version, in Avanti II, with 305, 327, 350 & 400 c.i.d. Corvette engines.

Most 6 cyl. Trans. have the low gear start which they certainly need. The correct Converter Housing (which will need dial indicated for center), the adapter plate and torque converter will be needed to connect the correct NOS 185 Engine you have to the the Flight-O-Matic.

This car would be a very rare Silver Hawk 6, K body Hardtop.
Isn't there a Serial Number Plate on the drivers door post with the 57GXXXXX Serial Number?
Over here, most of us have no idea how the Belgium cars were assembled, I believe they were (KD) knockdowns, so were not put together like a Studebaker Factory built car.

[woodysrods]

Good eye Simon. This particular paint starts out Flat, and we mixed 20% gloss to it.
Brian

[Ricardo]

Hi everyone, I am a new member of the forum as of today.
Thanks for any help. Simon.

Simon: There exist a very good Studebaker Club in UK: contact: Studebaker Owners Club UK
Website:

https://www.studebakerownersclub.org.uk

Contact:
Paul Eccles
Hardman Fold House Hardman Fold
Green Ln
Bolton Lanes BL3 2LX
England – UK
Tel: +44 (1204) 529 753
Fax: +44 (1204) 520 538

Paul is a real gentlemen as well as other people I knew years ago. They will help you

[S Wing]

StudeRich
I am finding out more every day , thanks for the information. It looks like the transmission may be rebuildable if its a Borg Warner. It also looks like I might have to rebuild the 170 CU In motor to get one that fits- I now remember that the sump from the 170 was too small to fit the new 185 I got. Will have a look at the door post this weekend and start to see if there are any records for Belgian built cars.Looks like it had an engine swap at some point maybe it was origimnally a V8 although the smaller six would make more sense in the economic climate in the UK in the 50'S. Then again if you're buying a new studebaker Hawk in the 50's perhaps fuel consumption was not an issue. Thanks for your help.
Simon.

[Jim B PEI]

Simon, If your Belgium Hawk originally had an earlier 170 with a pre-55 block rather than the North American 185 design, that is interesting. Up to 55, the Detroit Gear automatic was used, but I am not aware that there was a difference in how the DG and the Flightomatic bolted up to either the 170 lower deck and the 185/170 higher deck, either in bolt placement or any other adjustment. By sump you mean the engine oil pan, I guess (I am so used to hearing sump generally for the automatic transmission oil pan--must be a local thing here) My parts books only go back to 55, so I am also unaware about the difference in sump either. Perhaps someone with both engines can chime in?

[raprice]

Simon,
Welcome to the world of Studebakers. I can already see that you've received a good deal of advice from our forum members. I strongly recommend that you join the Studebaker Drivers Club. Each month there is a tremendous amount of information that may help you. Also, there is a section in the monthly magazine, "Turning Wheels", called the Cooperator. Here you can pick up some good restoration advice. You can even ask questions concerning the restoration of your car. By all means, join the Studebaker Owners Club.org.uk.
Best of luck.
Rog

[fatboylust]

Once upon a time (1965) my bother had 1953 Jaguar Mk VII. The torque converter (TC) when wrong leaving him stranded on the side of the road. The car was towed to our house and my dad began repairers. Once the transmission was identified as a Cast Iron Case Borg Warner and the TC was found to be the problem the replacement TC was sourced from a Studebaker part number as there is/was no Jaguar dealership locally. So in London there may be an old Jaguar shop who is very failure with your transmission and TC.

[S Wing]

Thanks ROG. I will rejoin both the Drivers and owners clubs. I used to belong to both before I bought a Charger asa daily runabiut while I fixed up the Studebaker. Then the Charger turned into a four year full restoration itself and that led to all things Mopar-a little drag racing etc. But now it really is time to get the Hawk back on the road. The good thing is that I picked uo a lot of tools and resto knowledge on the Charger and the Studebaker rebuild does'nt seem as impossible as it used to.
Simon