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Sonny
09-02-2010, 09:40 PM
I know what you mean John/JDP. I spent a lot of time cleaning and touching up a 3K mile Avanti. At an SDC International I lost a few points, including by Dave T. for a fold in the door upholstery. I explained that that was the way that it was built and he said that he didn't like it so he took a point off. [I have had original Studebakers with things like a big sag in the paint.] I did get a First Place, but I think that someone else, that scored a point or two higher, was supposed to get Best of Show. They trailered their Avanti in a closed trailer and I drove mine (not that that matters in judging). IIRC, that was the last time that I had a car judged at an SDC International.

We shouldn't turn this thread into a judging platform. It is Sonny's statement that started it. I don't see how anyone could call the car a 399 point car. It is an excellent original condition car, but it would not judge very high as-is.

I really didn't want to get Brain's car thread turned into a judging thread either, therefore I figured we could chat about the emotional subject of judging in it's own thread. :)

Gary, I'm sorry for being overly-exuberant with my 399.7 point comment. Obviously the car would need a tad bit of "spiffing up", but not very much to be top-o-the-class.

In fact the point to my whole overly-exuberant post was that cars of the caliber of your 3K Avanti or Brian's '58 should be THE standard that those desiring 400 point cars should be striving to emulate, period...

In fact, I believe the whole Studebaker judging "thing" should be entirely re-done, it's waaay too far away from the originality standard. It should be actually painful to garner 400 points, (OR to be more in line with the majority of the world, 100 points). As it stands now, judging usually best serves the "I spent the bucks so I'm the winner or I'm gonna throw a tantrum!" crowd.

Points should be deducted for everything an experienced judge can catch that is not absolutely original or not New Old Stock. Judges should be oohing and aahing over drips and sags in the door jambs, over-spray in other areas, or whatEVER nuances came from the factory. ONLY my opinion but, I maintain that to be considered a "legitimate" official judge, you should be required to prove heavy original car experience.

I guess what it amounts to is, if you have a real museum piece, driving it or not, YOU are the winner! If that is not the standard, as painful as it is, then a 400 point prize carries about as much weight as something that you can find in any ol' box of Cracker Jacks....:rolleyes::p;):D

You want judging? I'm NOT a GM man, but I had the opportunity to observe an International Buick Club judging event, ALL THREE DAYS OF IT! Talk about BRUTAL! If your car was assessed more than 3 or 4 points, (I can't remember which), judging was automatically finished, done, your car ignored...

It finally got down to two cars, a yellow '53 or '54 convertible and I THINK it was a '61, (not a "big" Buick, but a mid-size, silvery-blue-gray, two-door HT), for best of show. Fellas, ALL of the judges were all over those two cars like bugs. What was so striking about the whole thing was that the convert was NOT the shiniest car there, it didn't have all the gee-gaw accessories available for that year. In fact, I distinctly remember thinking/feeling that the car was rather unremarkable! BUT, the judges plainly stated, it was BEST of show because of it's near perfect originality!

barnlark
09-02-2010, 09:56 PM
Sonny, was it possibly a cream color with red and cream leather interior '53 Skylark Roadmaster?

Mike Sal
09-02-2010, 10:22 PM
Back when I made it to all of the national meets, a few friends & I would set out in the parking lot on a Wednesday night, enjoying a few cold beverages & making bets on who's car had the most bugs on it from the drive to the meet.....all while some others were burning the late night hours with their feather dusters & polishing cloths.
Mike Sal

jlmccuan
09-03-2010, 12:09 AM
Someone spoke to me about a "Conservation" class being added to (if I remember correctly) the AACA. What? A class that celebrates the car being kept up in good condition rather than torn to pieces and built to some unrealistic standard that the factory didn't even put into its show cars? Heretics !!

Speaking from the point of view of an owner with a fairly "original" car, I will never submit my 10K mile Avanti to a judging system where it is penalized for the 2K miles a year she get exercised. A factory original car will never score well compared to a $100K restoration. My factory paint wasn't as good, the factory interior has 47 years of air touching it, etc.

Then there is the problem of training judges with our mostly undocumented factory assembly proceedures. For instance, having been told my horn was mounted upside down by an SDC judge, I took it with a grain of salt, but never changed it since it would hit the supercharger pulley. Now with the factory assembly check list and notes in my possession, I see where the factory had the same problem during the building of my car. The "factory" solution - rotate the horn. So much for judging originality by folks who weren't there to see them built. I might add that the same documents note the wrong exhaust clamps were installed on the line, but this was changed by employee 7310 during his touchup after the car was "finished".

So if you want to see an example of what the factory did or did not do, you're welcome to come out to the parking lot and I'll give you a tour. I'll even tell you exactly what is and is not factory. I even enjoy discussing what looks different from the accepted "original" standard. It's almost like being there when it was built trying to figure out how it got that way. But, if you want to pull out a scoresheet and start deducting points for my horn, hit the road.

barnlark
09-03-2010, 01:15 AM
That's why I was more interested in the Skylark. I worked on my Lark next to 35 Buicks all winter. He usually wins those shows. Super picky.

Sorry, but these judging threads seem to eventually get ugly. Except for a handful of people in the club, how many can truly be considered to have heavy original car experience for every class, or even just one class? We're lucky if we get two or three real experts with perfect memories judging at an Int'l. It is what it is. I think the SDC members now in charge are committed to getting things right and beefing up the judging standards to create less ill will for the future. It's a common problem that will never make everyone happy, though. No wonder head judges are stressed out! Tough duty.

If it's fun to have one's car judged for some people, they should go for it and thicken up their skin to simply learn something from the experience, right or wrong by the judges, or just display it and relax. There were some beautiful cars on display that weren't being judged in Glendale this year. However, the verbally expressed attitude by one owner about this very subject made me walk away when I would have spent much more time enjoying his car. He acted like he was above judging and had little respect for anyone who subjected themselves to it. Why do judging experiences polarize so many people? It's supposed to be fun, but rarely seems to end up that way. Looking down one's nose at a concours winning attempt isn't any better than treating a bug splattered driver like it doesn't belong, either. It's a hobby we all seem to love, you know? I wish it weren't so full of drama for so many of us.

556063
09-03-2010, 06:06 AM
Well, I have a lot of respect for those who tackle a car with the object of making it perfect and then going through the judging ordeal at the highest level. Do I look forward to doing this and holding it up as a goal if I make it to some sort of retirement when I have more time to spend at the hobby? The answer would be no. Maybe that's the same reason I didn't stay in school and complete and MBA or become a lawyer or doctor. Intense scrutiny and interpersonal politics turn me off. And, if you take a car to this level that's what it is. Putting your best effort into a situation where it is up to the opinions of others. With all the hatred for all things political around our group here, it confuses me why some willingly submit themselves to this type of process. But maybe it explains all the discussion and complaining. Judging IS a political process.

I'm not a golfer, but there is a saying in golf that holds much truth. That is, "Play a round with someone, and you will learn more about that person than you can any other way". Same holds true for parking next to someone at a car show.

This is the portion of the hobby that I see taking less and less importance over the next 20 years. People have enough stress in life without creating more for themselves. If this was golf, I see more scrambles than tournaments on the schedule in the years ahead.

candbstudebakers
09-03-2010, 10:26 AM
This is a Hobby and should keep that in mind, having a car or truck judged is just part of our Zone and national meets and with out it what do we have , not much, it is not for every one and it is a lot of work just to make it something you would like have judged. when is the last time the top winner got any thing more than a $5.00 plaque or something else as a prize? it is done for fun and a way to work on knowing a little more about you car or truck for the next time out. member who judge these cars and truck are giving up most of the day to do this and are not pro judges and do not need to be when judging a hobby like ours, If no one ever won then what is the use of entering the next time? zone meets are harder to win at because they only have a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd so only the best do really win there or should, but national meets is to have fun to go along with all the hard work getting them ready for the judging we do have, thanks to every one that does the judging or has done it in the past at our meets it is a hard time taking job and lets stop the BS about our judges.

2R5
09-03-2010, 10:52 AM
Well said Bob , and also the judges learn alot as well .

Sonny
09-03-2010, 09:28 PM
Sonny, was it possibly a cream color with red and cream leather interior '53 Skylark Roadmaster?

Yes, I believe it could be described as "cream" colored, very pale yellow as I remember, and yes it WAS a red interior. Are you familiar with that car?

Sonny
09-03-2010, 11:10 PM
This is a Hobby and should keep that in mind, having a car or truck judged is just part of our Zone and national meets and with out it what do we have , not much, it is not for every one and it is a lot of work just to make it something you would like have judged. when is the last time the top winner got any thing more than a $5.00 plack or something else as a prize? it is done for fun and a way to work on knowing a little more about you car or truck for the next time out. member who judge these cars and truck are giving up most of the day to do this and are not pro judges and do not need to be when judging a hobby like ours, If no one ever won then what is the use of entering the next time? zone meets are harder to win at because they only have a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd so only the best do really win there or should, but national meets is to have fun to go along with all the hard work getting them ready for the judging we do have, thanks to every one that does the judging or has done it in the past at our meets it is a hard time taking job and lets stop the BS about our judges.

Bob, my point, totally, is setting the standards for judging and for everyone being familiar with those standards. I hope you aren't thinking that I'm picking on judges.

A standard is set to precisely establish or to guarantee a certain quality. In order to guarantee that quality, it takes an established level of knowledge about that standard which you are trying to determine to be properly accomplished. Every standard must be properly and evenly applied in order to be "legitimate" to the venue to which it is being applied. In the vernacular, "It's either black or white, what is supposed to be like "this", is or isn't like "this", end of discussion." OR, otherwise known as being as undistorted by emotion or personal bias, (fair), as possible when you're judging ANYthing....

I personally find getting my car judged to be a total waste of valuable time and I find a LOT to do at organized meetings, many more worthwhile experiences. In fact, there is nothing better than a few of your friends and people whom you don't know coming up to you with their personal compliments. I just don't think it gets much better when your "peers" voice their personal approval, directly to ya.

NOW, I really do not have anything against someone getting their car judged. If you like that kind of thing, PERFECT, it has a solid place in the organization. As for the judges, who are usually coerced into the judging role, God bless 'em ALL! I could never do it, I have the highest respect.

If you think about it, it's the establishment of the strictest standards that actually satisfies everyone. It's what makes the most worthwhile competitions and eliminates ALL of the drama. Oh! It makes judging a LOT easier too! These days, ALL it takes is making a few training movies on DVD for judges, THAT would be something EASY and well worthwhile to do for ANY organization. Judges could then easily establish their "credentials". Send the DVD movies to the perspective or current judges, voila, heavy original car experience. Hey, rent/sell the DVD movies to the "masses" to pay for them! Heck, even PAY the owners of the highest caliber original cars to use their cars to make training movies, EVERYbody is happy!

I'll say this, I LOVE ALL judges! If the club even CARES about judging, establish the highest standards by making originality THE most important consideration and make a few lousy training movies...

Bob Andrews
09-04-2010, 07:08 AM
Do I look forward to doing this and holding it up as a goal if I make it to some sort of retirement when I have more time to spend at the hobby? The answer would be no. Maybe that's the same reason I didn't stay in school and complete and MBA or become a lawyer or doctor. Intense scrutiny and interpersonal politics turn me off. And, if you take a car to this level that's what it is. Putting your best effort into a situation where it is up to the opinions of others. With all the hatred for all things political around our group here, it confuses me why some willingly submit themselves to this type of process. But maybe it explains all the discussion and complaining. Judging IS a political process.



I used to agree with this 100%; but it's now about 90. I agree with everything you said, but with one exception: I could see getting judged solely for the interest of seeing what others think of your work. But you have to be prepared for criticism, including same of some aspect you spent a lot of time/money on and are particularly proud of.

My first IM was SB in 07. It was interesting to watch the judges going over cars- I had never seen that before. Unfortunately I witnessed the owner of a newly restored car going berserk at a judge over some deduction- complete with obscenities. As I recall the judge gave in, and the owner got his 400 points and $5 plaque. I thought, if that's what judging does to a person I want NO part of it. It seems when the judging experience is discussed the conversation tends to be a lot more about what one is mad about that what they liked...

I may have a car judged someday, just to see what the judges think. But I would do so prepared to accept a 300 if that's what they say. But it's sure not high on my Bucket List...

Welcome
09-04-2010, 08:02 AM
>>>My first IM was SB in 07. It was interesting to watch the judges going over cars- I had never seen that before. Unfortunately I witnessed the owner of a newly restored car going berserk at a judge over some deduction- complete with obscenities. As I recall the judge gave in, and the owner got his 400 points and $5 plaque. I thought, if that's what judging does to a person I want NO part of it. It seems when the judging experience is discussed the conversation tends to be a lot more about what one is mad about that what they liked...<<<

Bob, maybe it’s written in the Judging Manual “the-squeaky-wheel-always-gets-the-grease” …or more correctly, “gets the points & plaque”!!!:D

For much of my working career, I audited (inspected) every type of vehicle imaginable. At GM they called us GCA’s (Global Customer Auditors). Basically, whatever non-conformances I’d put in my audit report, they’d be challenged; whatever non-conformances, I didn’t report, they’d also want to know why. It’s a no-win-situation!!!

Bottomline; My hat’s off to anyone who “volunteers” to put themselves through what a Judge (Inspector/Auditor) goes through at a SDC International Meet.

556063
09-04-2010, 08:50 AM
SDC has a very fair and open process. I've never had any issues with the shows or the judges. I have judged at a couple small shows. I've always left within five minutes of handing in my results or being released.

When my car is being judged, I stand back. If I can ask them to, I ask for their observations once they are finished.

I respect that someone else has taken the time to be a judge. I hate it when other owners show bad sportsmanship. I wish some disgruntled show participants would volunteer for judge duty sometime. It can be a lot of fun, or it can be like being an umpire at a Little League game. Depends on the maturity of the participants.

Pat Dilling
09-04-2010, 11:09 AM
I don't have an original car, so when mine is judged it is only on condition. If I chose to have it judged, I submit it with the spirit that I may learn something to improve it. With 25,000 miles on it since initial completion I know it has some warts and I expect those to be found, though they aren't always. I have benefited from some observations that helped me improve the car and found some criticisms to be silly, and appropriately ignored. I think one thing that probably needs to be addressed is the disparity between original and modified cars in the scoring. Many modified cars score first place while much fewer originals do. I can see where some original owners may resent that. I'm not sure what the solution is though.

I too salute the judges, it is often a thankless task.

Pat

mightymeower
09-04-2010, 07:48 PM
I let a friend and fellow classic car afficionado twist my arm and attended a "judged" car show a coupe weeks ago...my first in nearly 10 years. It didn't take very long for me to recall why I gave up car shows in the first place. I am sure there are "exceptions", where politics, favoritism, ignorance, and highly subjective opinions, are not the major influencing factors in a classic car show; however, I no longer possess the enthusiasm some owners have to find out which ones may be one of those exceptions.

I seriously doubt I will be in attendance at another car show for at least another 10 years :) My classic cars were purchased with the sole intent of driving the things, which I generally do, weather permitting, every opportunity I get. I have no idea how many "points" they may be able to garner.

The smiles, comments, and thumbs-up while simply driving around are all the "points" I need to know I have a "winner".

These are just my opinions....other's "mileage may surely vary".

Karl '62 Black GT Hawk 4sp
'57 Belvedere mild custom