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clonelark
08-06-2010, 08:08 AM
This 1958 Scotsman i just bought is very original, my question is why does my hubcaps have an "S" in them? Most Scotsman i've seen dont have the S. Was it an early vs. late? 58 vs 59? Anyone know? Any early and late factory pictures?
http://i36.tinypic.com/es4u2d.jpg
http://i36.tinypic.com/5ah00y.jpg

mbstude
08-06-2010, 12:16 PM
The ones in your photos are for a T Cab, Champ truck. The original Scotsman caps were painted and smooth, no S.

Here's the originals that were on my '59. They're pretty rare. I have a NOS set of stainless Champ hub caps that I'll be using (just like yours with the S, but in stainless), so I gave my originals to a guy that's doing a body-off, factory correct '59 Scotsman. He didn't have any of the originals so it worked out for everyone.

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk179/1959S2D/orange%20hubcaps/hubcaps59001.jpg

jclary
08-06-2010, 12:43 PM
Over the years I have been privileged to view (and even purchase) the remains of several dealership parts inventories. The thing that struck me as opposed to today's "we'll have to order it" practice, is what the Studebaker dealers piled up for spares. I have seen bumpers, heaters, sheet metal, etc., in addition to all the normal perishable parts to keep a shop in business. In the days of the "Art of the Deal" when you could really negotiate a purchase in good faith, I could easily see a dealership offering a few "upgrades" like a set of chrome hub caps, or throwing in an "old stock" radio or heater to a car or truck not originally equipped, just to make the sale. Just because it didn't leave the factory with an item, or offered as a factory option, don't mean that it couldn't have left the dealership with some "old stock" accessory that happened to still fit in a newer model. How many one piece windshield C cab trucks have you seen with the older R series heaters, and how many R series truck have you seen with the newer E series heaters? I suspect that some were dealer "old stock" and some probably "up-graded" by customers who wanted to add a heater to an old truck.

S_Ferrell
08-06-2010, 02:10 PM
I have always believed that the Scotsman did not come with a radio., yet I recall seeing an article in Colletcible Automobile several years ago on The Scotsman sedan and wagon, and there was a Studebaker radio in the dash. Could you have ordered one?

StudeRich
08-06-2010, 03:28 PM
Could you have ordered one?

Of course most every option available on a Champion, Commander or President Sedan or Wagon and even things like the simulated spoke AC-2799 Hawk style Wheel Covers were often Dealer Installed on Scotsmans.

Many options were available from the Factory as well. Because of the Scotsman being the lowest priced cars in America, Dealers would rarely order any options to keep them competitive. They came with a Box heater not a Premium Climatizer Heating and Defrosting System, but you could order one, like electric wipers, Overdrive, Stainless body side moulding dress-up kit etc, etc.

The term "came with" is a very misused term, in the 50's and '60's you got very little items STANDARD, included in the price.
Because a given car has an item, it does not mean it "Came with it"! If it was not Standard on that model, someone ORDERED it, or added it & you PAID extra for it.
All Accessories were optional, including a Radio, Tinted Glass, Wheel Covers, White wall Tires, an Oil Filter, back-up Lights etc. on MOST all Models.

Bob Andrews
08-06-2010, 04:39 PM
Over the years I have been privileged to view (and even purchase) the remains of several dealership parts inventories. The thing that struck me as opposed to today's "we'll have to order it" practice, is what the Studebaker dealers piled up for spares. I have seen bumpers, heaters, sheet metal, etc., in addition to all the normal perishable parts to keep a shop in business. In the days of the "Art of the Deal" when you could really negotiate a purchase in good faith, I could easily see a dealership offering a few "upgrades" like a set of chrome hub caps, or throwing in an "old stock" radio or heater to a car or truck not originally equipped, just to make the sale. Just because it didn't leave the factory with an item, or offered as a factory option, don't mean that it couldn't have left the dealership with some "old stock" accessory that happened to still fit in a newer model. How many one piece windshield C cab trucks have you seen with the older R series heaters, and how many R series truck have you seen with the newer E series heaters? I suspect that some were dealer "old stock" and some probably "up-graded" by customers who wanted to add a heater to an old truck.


Of course most every option available on a Champion, Commander or President Sedan or Wagon and even things like the simulated spoke AC-2799 Hawk style Wheel Covers were often Dealer Installed on Scotsmans.

Many options were available from the Factory as well. Because of the Scotsman being the lowest priced cars in America, Dealers would rarely order any options to keep them competitive. They came with a Box heater not a Premium Climatizer Heating and Defrosting System, but you could order one, like electric wipers, Overdrive, Stainless body side moulding dress-up kit etc, etc.

The term "came with" is a very misused term, in the 50's and '60's you got very little items STANDARD, included in the price.
Because a given car has an item, it does not mean it "Came with it"! If it was not Standard on that model, someone ORDERED it, or added it & you PAID extra for it.
All Accessories were optional, including a Radio, Tinted Glass, Wheel Covers, White wall Tires, an Oil Filter, back-up Lights etc. on MOST all Models.

Not to get OT, but you both have well-articulated points here. I have seen this in other makes, but it seems much more likely in the Stude world. It seems like it becomes an issue at some point in every Concours. What's "stock" and "correct" are sometimes tricky to pin down.

Reminds me of the 36K R2 Avanti I saw a few years back. It was ordered from the factory by a Studebaker dealer for himself, and always kept until his death. The car had two 'S' hood ornaments on it, one at the front of each fender, like gunsights. As I was talking to the owner's son I commented on them being added and he told me no, his father had ordered it exactly as he wanted, including the 'gun sights'. He said it rolled off the transport at the dealership that way- they were installed at the factory. I had no reason to doubt him, especially since that squares with all the stories I've heard about Stude willing to do most anything a buyer wanted.

It's a great system, but can sure raise holy he** when authenticity is discussed:confused:

studeclunker
08-06-2010, 11:18 PM
Hold the 'caps and Cli-mah-tye-zer,
special orders are'nt sur-prize-ers,
all we ask is that you let us,
dee-liver your way!
At Stu-dee-bay... ker,
Have it your way!
At Stu-dee-bay... ker,
Have it your way!

I hope the people at Burger King will forgive my little pirating of their song, but it fits.:o:p Studebaker had an attitude of whatever the customer wants is what they wanted to deliver. A lesson our current automakers would be wise to remember. Sadly, it didn't make up for the price difference most of the time.

Chris_Dresbach
08-06-2010, 11:58 PM
I remember a post a really long time ago that had one of Mr. Quinns photos showing a '51 with a yellow body, and black fenders. It was custom ordered that way from the factory by the buyer and it wasn't even a taxi! I tried looking for this pic, but couldn't find it. Maybe somebody can post it later.

mbstude
08-07-2010, 12:28 AM
What you guys seem to be forgetting is that the hubcaps that clonelark posted pictures of didn't become available until 1960 on the Champ trucks. His truck is a '58. No way a dealer could have put on these Champ hubcaps when they weren't available for another 2 years! The 57-58-59 Scotsman hubcaps are the ones I posted a picture of. They were only used on Scotsmans (cars and trucks). We all know that Studebaker would build any car any way for a paying customer, but the initial post in this thread was asking what the hubcaps fit. Nothing more.

I remember a post a while back where it was determined that clonelark's Scotsman had been restored (at least partially) years ago. Makes sense that the restorer put the Champ hubcaps on as they were likely very easy to obtain in NOS condition back then. Champ caps have always been much more plentiful than Scotsman caps.

FWIW, the same guy that I got my NOS stainless Champ caps from has a NOS set of painted ones, still in the factory wrappers if anyone needs a set.

StudeRich
08-07-2010, 03:37 PM
You are absolutely RIGHT Matt, all but one little detail, this part is NOT correct: "They were only used on Scotsmans (cars and trucks)."

The Scotsman Cars used the same Hub Cab as '51-'57 Standard Cars did, but it was Painted Body Color instead of Stainless. The Diameter and shape IS different and the Car Caps fit the 5 on 4 1/2 in. center Wheels, not the 4 3/4 in. bolt pattern Truck and '50 Commander Wheel.

Last week I reminded studeclunker of that fact.

Sdude
08-08-2010, 11:06 AM
I just posted an ad in Hawk Talks for a FREE Scotsman pick up.

Check it out at www.hawktalks.com

OOPS - premature..... the new edition has yet to hit the web page. Check it out in a few days. It'll show up.

kurtruk
08-08-2010, 05:39 PM
You are absolutely RIGHT Matt, all but one little detail, this part is NOT correct: "They were only used on Scotsmans (cars and trucks)."

The Scotsman Cars used the same Hub Cab as '51-'57 Standard Cars did, but it was Painted Body Color instead of Stainless. The Diameter and shape IS different and the Car Caps fit the 5 on 4 1/2 in. center Wheels, not the 4 3/4 in. bolt pattern Truck and '50 Commander Wheel.

Last week I reminded studeclunker of that fact.

Didn't a Scotsman car use the 47-49 Champion small wheelcover painted body color instead of the stainless as used in 47-49?

clonelark
08-09-2010, 06:30 AM
Still no Factory photos have shown up, anyone have any Scotsman car or truck photos?

studemaker
08-09-2010, 06:53 AM
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l11/studemaker/First58Scotsman.jpg

Sdude
08-09-2010, 09:54 AM
The new edition of Hawk Talks has been posted on the web site. Check out the ad for a FREE Scotsman truck...