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53k
07-26-2006, 07:33 PM
In the few miles I have driven my newly-acquired '64 Daytona convert I have noticed what sounded like an annoying exhaust rattle. When I re-installed my exhaust manifolds last week I looked at the exhaust and could see that it was not bumping anything. Today I decided to try to track the down the rattle. Ron Butts had suggested that bad sway bar bushings can make a racket so I wanted to check them up close and personal. I jacked up the car, installed the jack stands and crawled under. Sway bar bushings looked good- very tight. The lower A-arm bolts were tight (see near calamity #1 below). All bushings looked good. It sort of sounded like a loose shock so I looked at the bottom bolts. They were tight so I looked at the top. They were tight. The upper inner A-arm bushings looked good, but something looked strange. I took hold of one of the cap screws on the end of the pin and it wasn't even finger tight. I checked the other side- same thing. Both front screws I must have tightened 10 - 15 turns. The left rear one was properly tight, but the right rear one was also loose. I tried to torque them to the prescribed 50 - 55 foot-pounds, but my two-year old Craftsman torque wrench has decided that it doesn't want to ratchet any more. So, I tightened them as best I could with either a 9/16" socket and ratchet or a ratcheting end wrench until I can collect a new wrench at Sears.
OK- near calmity #1. About 18 months ago I was carrying a bridesmaid and a groomsman in my '64 Avanti as part of a Studebaker-based run from the church to the wedding reception. The trip was maybe 15 miles on a curving, mountainous road. After I dropped them I started back, first over the same road then on I-70 where I running about 75 for 20 or so miles. After that, another 20 miles of two-lane road. As I turned off the highway on to the road that goes to my house (four miles to go), I hear a loud clunk and the steering got wierd. I crept along at 10 - 15 mph the rest of the way home. This was approaching 11pm. I took my trusty Maglite and looked under the car. The left lower A-arm was hanging down about two inches below the frame. All the nuts and washers were missing from the bolts that held the inner pin to the frame.
I guess my message is- check ALL your suspension parts. Don't take a "nice" car for grtanted.

[img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/64%20Daytona%20Convertible/Copy%20of%20DaytonaConvert7-20-06.JPG[/img=right]

Paul Johnson
'53 Commander Starliner (since 1966)
'64 Daytona Wagonaire (original owner)
'64 Daytona Convertible (2006)
Museum R-4 engine

Guido
07-26-2006, 08:20 PM
Paul,

Glad to know that you got it figured out before it caused a major problem or accident. Hate to think we would lose you or the brand new car. Besides, it would leave Darryl Carr as the only WV guy in our chapter![:0]

Guido Salvage - "Where rust is beautiful"

1946 M-16 fire truck
1948 M-16 grain truck
1949 2R16A grain truck
1949 2R17A fire truck
1955 E-38 grain truck
1957 3E-40 flatbed
1961 6E-28 grain truck
1962 7E-13D 4x4 rack truck
1962 7E-7 Champ pickup
1962 GT Hawk 4 speed
1964 Avanti R2 4 speed
1964 Cruiser
And various other "treasures"
Hiding and preserving Studebakers in Richmond & Louisa, Va.

Roscomacaw
07-27-2006, 10:41 AM
Yup! Check those inner A-arm bolts! If they've been RE-used, it's time to think about NEW ones or Locktite on the used ones. And the two bolts that fasten the upper A-arm to the frame can cause the attachment area to crack. For that matter, even if they're TIGHT, you can have cracking in that area. Studebaker even had a reinforcement piece as a fix for that area. I think you can still get them from SASCO.

I looked at a GT some years ago. The kid that owned it told me that it needed a new front spring. This because the wheel was askew in the right front wheel well.
I looked down past the engine and the front of the upper A-arm was completely off it's shaft! The bolt was gone at the rear and the rubber was missing from the rear bushing. And he'd driven it like this!!![:0][xx(]

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

sbca96
07-27-2006, 11:19 AM
Years ago a buddy of mine wanted a Hawk just like mine, on his own he
found and bought a 1961 Hawk, and we went to LA to drive it home. When
I saw it, I KNEW he got "took", it was very rough, and almost every
body panel was dented. It ran, but not very good. I did a quick look
under the front end, and noticed EVERY pivot had gaps between it and
the frame. We spent the next hour or so tightening ALL the bolts that
hold the suspension to the frame, upper and lower.

I have never had one of these loosen on my own cars, I dont know how
they get loose on others. That car was a nightmare, and after the V8
engine blew up, & he rebuilt it, it broke an axle shaft, lost a wheel
and then ended up running into someone while not paying attention. At
last we heard, it was on its way to be a Bonneville car, with a 1953
fiberglass front end. Never followed up on it.

Tom

53k
07-29-2006, 08:26 PM
More on the Daytona aggravations- the next day I decided to give it a good greasing and I thought maybe the king pins hadn't been properly lubed (weight off the wheels) so I pulled the front wheels (wanted to check the bearings too- no more "standin' on the corner in Winslow. Arizona"- long story). The left shock top bolt was about 1/4" above the washer and bushing. So I fastened it down and thought that had to be the rattle I was hearing. I also found that both front wheel bearings were loose enough that I could rock the tires slightly. So, I packed the bearings and tightened them properly. Okay, it has be rattle-free now. Test drive- (had the wife drive it around the block (three miles- country block:))- rattle, rattle. And, she complained that the brake pedal went down too far. So, I checked the shop manual and found that the ONLY way to improve pedal height on a manual brake, dual master cylinder is to adjust the linings. So, today I put it up on jack stands and cranked away on the star wheel adjusters. Only problem there is the shop manual doesn't tell you which way to crank them. I finally found one reference to moving your screwdriver or adjusting tool handle up to tighten (lengthen) the adjusters. That solved the problem on the left, but it didn't mention that on the right side they you have to move the handle down. Figured it out and got the front wheel tight, but I loosened the rear one so far that I couldn't back it off. So, I had to run up to the shop and get my $12 hub puller and take off the drum to get the adjuster unstuck. Finally got it right and tried the pedal- joy, about 3 inches to full, hard application.
It was too late for a test ride, but I'm thinking now the stupid rattle was the jack which was cinched under the spare tire.
BTW- the spring bushings are shot, but I'm not about to tackle them right now.

[img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/64%20Daytona%20Convertible/Copy%20of%20DaytonaConvert7-20-06.JPG[/img=right]

Paul Johnson
'53 Commander Starliner (since 1966)
'64 Daytona Wagonaire (original owner)
'64 Daytona Convertible (2006)
Museum R-4 engine

Roscomacaw
07-29-2006, 09:08 PM
Actually Paul, there's LEFT & RIGHT brake shoe adjusters. Someone must've put Left hand adjusters on all four wheels of this ragtop. That way, all four wheels require the brake tool to be worked the same way to tighten or loosen the brakes all around.[}:)]

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

Dick Steinkamp
07-29-2006, 09:18 PM
quote:Originally posted by 53k
Test drive- (had the wife drive it around the block


Now why haven't I thought of THAT! [}:)][^]

http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

53k
07-30-2006, 08:28 AM
quote:Originally posted by Mr.Biggs

Actually Paul, there's LEFT & RIGHT brake shoe adjusters. Someone must've put Left hand adjusters on all four wheels of this ragtop. That way, all four wheels require the brake tool to be worked the same way to tighten or loosen the brakes all around.[}:)]

Aha! No wonder the manual only called for prying one direction. I should have checked the Chassis Parts Book first.
OK, if it has self-adjusters, why were they loose? The Shop Manual says for '63-'64 self-adjusters, tighten the star wheel until the brakes drag, then back them off TWENTY clicks and the first three or so brakings will tighten them. If I had backed them off that much I'd have been pumping the brakes to even get any pedal.

[img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/64%20Daytona%20Convertible/Copy%20of%20DaytonaConvert7-20-06.JPG[/img=right]

Paul Johnson
'53 Commander Starliner (since 1966)
'64 Daytona Wagonaire (original owner)
'64 Daytona Convertible (2006)
Museum R-4 engine

JDP
07-30-2006, 08:35 AM
20 clicks ??, something wrong there.

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Arnold Md.
64 Daytona HT
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
63 GT Hawk
63 Avanti R1/AC
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62 Lark 2 door
62 GT(parts car)
60 Lark convert
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56 Power Hawk/4 speed/289
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53k
07-30-2006, 04:35 PM
quote:Originally posted by JDP

20 clicks ??, something wrong there.

Page 16B of the Brake Section, '59-64 Shop Manual,

[img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/64%20Daytona%20Convertible/Copy%20of%20DaytonaConvert7-20-06.JPG[/img=right]

Paul Johnson
'53 Commander Starliner (since 1966)
'64 Daytona Wagonaire (original owner)
'64 Daytona Convertible (2006)
Museum R-4 engine

curt
07-30-2006, 05:04 PM
I would be interested in how tight do you pull the front drun in before backing off, and how far do you back off. The book is too vague to be of any guide to me.

curt
07-30-2006, 05:09 PM
I would be interested in the tighting procedure you use on the front brake drum. The book is too vague, like tighten the nut snug and back off 1/6 turn. What is snug?

53k
07-30-2006, 06:06 PM
quote:Originally posted by curt

I would be interested in the tighting procedure you use on the front brake drum. The book is too vague, like tighten the nut snug and back off 1/6 turn. What is snug?

My method isn't very scientific. I tighten it until I get a pretty heavy drag on the wheel then I back it off just enough to insert the cotter pin. I guess I leave them pretty tight because it doesn't take much driving to have them turning freely.
Hope this helps.

[img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/64%20Daytona%20Convertible/Copy%20of%20DaytonaConvert7-20-06.JPG[/img=right]

Paul Johnson
'53 Commander Starliner (since 1966)
'64 Daytona Wagonaire (original owner)
'64 Daytona Convertible (2006)
Museum R-4 engine

Dick Steinkamp
07-30-2006, 06:20 PM
quote:Originally posted by 53k

My method isn't very scientific.


Mine isn't either. I snug them up, then loosen them so that I can just barely move the washer prying gently with a screwdriver.



http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

Sonny
07-31-2006, 01:10 AM
quote:Originally posted by JDP

20 clicks ??, something wrong there.

I'd replied to this earlier but when I went to post it, it completely disappeared because I'd forgotten to log in! Grrrrrr......:(

Anyway, the reason for "20 clicks" is, the self adjusting system uses a much finer notch on the adjusting wheel than the non-self adjusting system. BUT, I don't care what the book says, do NOT back it off 20 clicks and hope they adjust correctly. Nine times out of ten the self adjusting system can be counted upon to get it wrong between the four wheels.

I am NOT a fan of self adjusting brake systems. The system is supposed to reduce the labor intensive job of adjusting brakes. However, I've found over the many years that the system just makes MORE work. I manually adjust the brakes so that there's a slight drag, even if it sounds/feels like the brake shoes are hitting the drum unevenly, (and they probably are if you've just always depended on the self adjusting system). I've never had any problem doing it that way. If you check/adjust them manually, even though you have the self adjusting system, once in awhile, the shoes will wear MUCH more evenly.

Also, I know it's a pain, but if you have self adjusting brakes and EVER have to pump the pedal every time to get a firm pedal, that's actually a signal to pull the drums and see why, (get the adjusting wheels free again, check the cables, adjust the little arm that does the actual adjustment so it's tight, hitting under the wheel and firmly on the teeth, no bad/missing teeth, etc). Obviously you could try the "back up and pump" trick first to see if you can eliminate the need to pump the brakes to get a firm pedal, but personally, I'd still pull 'em to see what's going on.

The thing that seems to be missed the most is the fact that the teeth on the adjusting wheel have to be "sharp", not missing and the wheel has to turn VERY freely on the male part of the adjuster. I use a TINY dab of copper "Never-Seize" on the male stub of the adjuster, NOT grease, (some use a dab of graphite).

Also, the brakes are supposed to be able to be "quickly" adjusted by pumping the pedal while you're backing up, and sometimes that actually works! BUT, for the system to work properly, at ALL, the brakes have to be adjusted correctly, manually, to begin with. The system was really designed to make very small adjustments only.

Sonny
http://RacingStudebakers.com

53k
07-31-2006, 08:38 AM
quote:Originally posted by Sonny


quote:Originally posted by JDP

20 clicks ??, something wrong there.

I'd replied to this earlier but when I went to post it, it completely disappeared because I'd forgotten to log in! Grrrrrr......:(
Been there, done that:).

quote:Anyway, the reason for "20 clicks" is, the self adjusting system uses a much finer notch on the adjusting wheel than the non-self adjusting system. BUT, I don't care what the book says, do NOT back it off 20 clicks and hope they adjust correctly. Nine times out of ten the self adjusting system can be counted upon to get it wrong between the four wheels.

I am NOT a fan of self adjusting brake systems. The system is supposed to reduce the labor intensive job of adjusting brakes. However, I've found over the many years that the system just makes MORE work. ...
Sonny
http://RacingStudebakers.com

Thanks Sonny- great explanation. Now I feel better about just loosening the adjusters enought to allow the wheels to turn. The pedal height is just right too. I tested it and the brakes seemed to work fine. My wife tried the improved pedal height and gave it her seal of approval:).
I guess with all the Studebakers I have owned this was my first with the later self-adjusters. All the others have been disc brake cars with the manual eccentric adjusters in back or were pre-'63. My '53 still has the old "plug-through-the-shoe" adjusters and they keep the pedal up just fine. Of course the brakes themselves are crummy:D.

[img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/64%20Daytona%20Convertible/Copy%20of%20DaytonaConvert7-20-06.JPG[/img=right]

Paul Johnson
'53 Commander Starliner (since 1966)
'64 Daytona Wagonaire (original owner)
'64 Daytona Convertible (2006)
Museum R-4 engine