Custom or Modified

[Sonny]

What's the accepted SDC terminology now? Modified is a Studebaker with all Studebaker parts, and a custom has a non-Stude motor/drive train? Was the terminology ever really "officialized"?

Sonny

http://RacingStudebakers.com

[Studedude]

quote:Originally posted by Sonny

What's the accepted SDC terminology now? Modified is a Studebaker with all Studebaker parts, and a custom has a non-Stude motor/drive train? Was the terminology ever really "officialized"?

I think it's the other way around... The Custom class is mildly modified, with Stude power. The Modified class is for cars with brand X power.

Yes, that has been adopted at the International level, but I have yet to see it utilized at regional meets.

https://www.davesplaceinc.com

[Dick Steinkamp]

quote:Originally posted by Studedude
The Custom class is mildly modified, with Stude power. The Modified class is for cars with brand X power.

Actually, Dave, I think it has to do ONLY with the power plant. It can be a very WILD looking Stude and highly modified, but if it has Stude power, it would be in the Custom class...even if it has very different Stude power than what it came with (289 in a tricked out '28 Dictator for instance would be a Custom). OTOH, it can be a bone stock LOOKING Stude (and actually bone stock in almost every way), but if it has an non Studebaker engine, it is in the Modified class.

One thing that has bothered me about the custom and modified classes is that ONLY cleanliness is judged (call it fit and finish if you'd like). That means a jacked up lime green Lark 4 door with an orange velour interior and a pinto 4 cylinder can sweep the Modified class IF it is the cleanest. Also, since they can't loose any points for "originality", it isn't fair to compare the judged score of a custom or modified Stude against a stocker.

A couple of us spent some time brainstorming how to fix this at yesterday's car show. We've got some ideas, but I'd like to hear from the rest of the gang on what they think before we submit our idea.

Thoughts?

[Studedude]

quote:Actually, Dave, I think it has to do ONLY with the power plant. It can be a very WILD looking Stude and highly modified, but if it has Stude power, it would be in the Custom class...even if it has very different Stude power than what it came with (289 in a tricked out '28 Dictator for instance would be a Custom). OTOH, it can be a bone stock LOOKING Stude (and actually bone stock in almost every way), but if it has an non Studebaker engine, it is in the Modified class.

I stand corrected!

quote:One thing that has bothered me about the custom and modified classes is that ONLY cleanliness is judged (call it fit and finish if you'd like). That means a jacked up lime green Lark 4 door with an orange velour interior and a pinto 4 cylinder can sweep the Modified class IF it is the cleanest. Also, since they can't loose any points for "originality", it isn't fair to compare the judged score of a custom or modified Stude against a stocker.

A couple of us spent some time brainstorming how to fix this at yesterday's car show. We've got some ideas, but I'd like to hear from the rest of the gang on what they think before we submit our idea.

Thoughts?

I agree in principle, but I figure we might as well leave it alone, as there will never be a system that will be perceived as completely "fair." The key is simply not to compare the judged score in custom or modified class against a judged score in the original class, because you are comparing apples and oranges. As long as you know that, there really is no problem. I remember at Memphis back in 2000, during the awards ceremony, they announced that they had docked modified cars (there was no custom class back then) X number of points for this or that "infraction," then tallied the scores. Didn't make sense, because they were not competing against stockers, anyway. By opening the custom class, Stude powered modifieds are not competing against either stock or alternate powered cars, so what's the point? Bragging rights for a higer numerical score? "My restored car got only 390 points in my class, but that modifed car got 395 in his class." Apples, and oranges, no foul.

https://www.davesplaceinc.com

[DEEPNHOCK]

You are correct Dick... The main difference is powerplant brand.
The way it was explained to me in the judging meeting at recent SDC SE Zone meet was that there are 200 points for authenticity and 200 points for execution to be judged in each class. In the modified and custom class, the 200 points for authenticity are automatic, and it is the execution that is critiqued and judged.
As far as cleanliness.. Yes, it should count. I had cars entered at the zone meet that were impeccably prepared, and some that weren't even washed off. It is a judged event the participant has chosen to enter in, and the responsability for putting the best quality workmanship and preparation of that vehicle is what counts. I (we)had to mark down a pretty Ccab because the interior wasn't finished. He would have swept the class had that been done. But it wasn't, and he was penalized. There were several marked down for oil leaks (like dripping on the ground)..
I sympathise with the judges, and would just say that if one chooses to participate. Great. But there should be no free lunch either...
Not a rant... Just a comment from being in that spot.
Jeff[8D]

quote:Originally posted by Dick Steinkamp

quote:Originally posted by Studedude
The Custom class is mildly modified, with Stude power. The Modified class is for cars with brand X power.

Actually, Dave, I think it has to do ONLY with the power plant. It can be a very WILD looking Stude and highly modified, but if it has Stude power, it would be in the Custom class...even if it has very different Stude power than what it came with (289 in a tricked out '28 Dictator for instance would be a Custom). OTOH, it can be a bone stock LOOKING Stude (and actually bone stock in almost every way), but if it has an non Studebaker engine, it is in the Modified class.

One thing that has bothered me about the custom and modified classes is that ONLY cleanliness is judged (call it fit and finish if you'd like). That means a jacked up lime green Lark 4 door with an orange velour interior and a pinto 4 cylinder can sweep the Modified class IF it is the cleanest. Also, since they can't loose any points for "originality", it isn't fair to compare the judged score of a custom or modified Stude against a stocker.
A couple of us spent some time brainstorming how to fix this at yesterday's car show. We've got some ideas, but I'd like to hear from the rest of the gang on what they think before we submit our idea.
Thoughts?

[2R5]

Hey Sonny ( don't want to get off the topic )....but , was at the Mercy Flight car show today .....missed you not being there , Anyways was great like usual and not as hot as last year, thank God

[Dick Steinkamp]

quote:Originally posted by DEEPNHOCK

As far as cleanliness.. Yes, it should count.

Totally agree. I helped judge the modifieds at Spokane, and although most of the class was composed of VERY well prepared cars, there were a couple like those you spoke of. That's bad ONLY if the owner feels the dirty carpets and greasy engine shouldn't be marked off. If the owner is having a fun day at the show and doesn't expect to place highly, more power to him.

What I'm trying to develop (along with a couple other SDC memebers) is a way to reward creativity, engineering, beauty, and style in the custom and modified classes. If that lime green 4 door Lark armoralled the tire treads on his car and you or Dave didn't, it could very well beat out your two beautiful and carefully engineered cars/trucks. Cleanliness certainly should still be included. Probably 1/2 of the total like it is for all other classes. The challenge is how to award "points" to subjective criteria like "style" and "engineering".

[DEEPNHOCK]

Sounds like there could/would/should be a few 'special' awards added to the list, just for these two classes.
Sort of like the 'Best Engineered' award given at each NHRA race.
That car may not win a round, but it gets a commendation due to innovation...
I'd go for some honorable mention awards in Modified and custom....
Jeff[8D]

quote:Originally posted by Dick Steinkamp

quote:Originally posted by DEEPNHOCK
As far as cleanliness.. Yes, it should count.

Totally agree. I helped judge the modifieds at Spokane, and although most of the class was composed of VERY well prepared cars, there were a couple like those you spoke of. That's bad ONLY if the owner feels the dirty carpets and greasy engine shouldn't be marked off. If the owner is having a fun day at the show and doesn't expect to place highly, more power to him.
What I'm trying to develop (along with a couple other SDC memebers) is a way to reward creativity, engineering, beauty, and style in the custom and modified classes. If that lime green 4 door Lark armoralled the tire treads on his car and you or Dave didn't, it could very well beat out your two beautiful and carefully engineered cars/trucks. Cleanliness certainly should still be included. Probably 1/2 of the total like it is for all other classes. The challenge is how to award "points" to subjective criteria like "style" and "engineering".

[Dick Steinkamp]

quote:Originally posted by DEEPNHOCK

[b]Sounds like there could/would/should be a few 'special' awards added to the list, just for these two classes.
Sort of like the 'Best Engineered' award given at each NHRA race.
That car may not win a round, but it gets a commendation due to innovation...
I'd go for some honorable mention awards in Modified and custom....

Good idea!

[Sonny]

quote:Originally posted by Studedude

quote:Originally posted by Sonny

What's the accepted SDC terminology now? Modified is a Studebaker with all Studebaker parts, and a custom has a non-Stude motor/drive train? Was the terminology ever really "officialized"?

I think it's the other way around... The Custom class is mildly modified, with Stude power. The Modified class is for cars with brand X power.

Yes, that has been adopted at the International level, but I have yet to see it utilized at regional meets.

https://www.davesplaceinc.com

Ok, it's sinkin' in, thanks Dave. The only thing I would say is, I wouldn't have done it exactly like that.

I'm thinkin' that the parameters should be changed and be a tad more inclusive. "Custom" being a Stude with custom built features, including ANY changes to the sheetmetal, fixtures, trim, interior, frame or has a non-Stude engine installed, (because of the customization of the frame and other features necessary to install the "other" power). An example of a custom Stude, (in my way-o-thinking), would be a '53 that was shaved, nosed and decked, forward tip hood, non-stock interior, Fatman front end, with Stude power.

An example of a modified Stude, (in my way-o-thinking), would be the same '53, no sheetmetal/trim/interior changes, with drive train pieces/parts swapped from other Studebakers, OR changes to the stock Stude power train, like fuel injection, turbo'ed, TH700 auto, 9 inch Ford rear end, rack steering, etc, etc.... (You don't have to customize the frame to install a brand-x tranny or rear end)

The idea of creating an entirely different class just because of what engine powers it keeps the "separate but equal" crap legitimate and we all know where that leads..... [B)]

The definition of a customized car at any big, recognized auto show is a car with sheetmetal changes! Wouldn't getting 'em mixed together, (body changed and "other powered" Studebakers), actually promote fairness for all? I know that it would sure make the "other" powered members feel more included..... [8]

Heck I dunno, none of my business, I care about showing my car about as much as a dog cares about a holiday! [)] Just thinking about a fairer way to do it, but mebbe somebody should check into having the designations reconsidered...... [^]


Sonny

http://RacingStudebakers.com

[Dick Steinkamp]

Sonny,

I don't know this for sure, but my guess is that the original custom/modified class was becoming very big at meets...in fact, even today my guess is that they are #1 and #2 in terms of number of judged cars at a National meet. If it needed to be split, Stude power and non-Stude power is probably as good as any. We are the Studebaker Driver's Club, and recognizing Studebaker power as one of the splits is not a bad thing.

I'll also throw this out as a potential reason for the current split (it's ONLY a guess).

I think one reason the original class was growing so big is that a member who had some nice wheels, a good stereo, and more comfortable seats in his/her otherwise Stude would not do well in a stock class. OTOH, they were getting their lunch eaten in the custom class by the full on pro customs...which generally had a non Stude motor (among many other non Stude parts). In order to give these members with slightly "customized" stock Studebakers a fighting chance at a trophy, the split was made between brand of power. This is not to say there aren't some full on customs with Stude power, but in my experience they are few and far between.

[studegary]

quote:Originally posted by Dick Steinkamp

Sonny,

I don't know this for sure, but my guess is that the original custom/modified class was becoming very big at meets...in fact, even today my guess is that they are #1 and #2 in terms of number of judged cars at a National meet. If it needed to be split, Stude power and non-Stude power is probably as good as any. We are the Studebaker Driver's Club, and recognizing Studebaker power as one of the splits is not a bad thing.

Dick - Your "guess" is correct (as I remember it). I was not in favor of the class names of custom and modified, but the then Chief Judge got what he requested, as it should be.

Gary L.
1954 Commander Starliner (restomod)
1959 DeLuxe pickup (restomod)

[DEEPNHOCK]

What really and truly needs to be done, and done soon, is to have a separate class for the new Avanti's (AVX)..
No way in heck should a new 2006 Avanti with 100 miles on it be judged up against a 1983 Avanti.... But that's how it is right now.
Jeff[8D]

[mbstude]

quote:What really and truly needs to be done, and done soon, is to have a separate class for the new Avanti's (AVX)..
No way in heck should a new 2006 Avanti with 100 miles on it be judged up against a 1983 Avanti.... But that's how it is right now.
Jeff

I'll agree with you there Jeff. Is that the reason there were two best of class awards for the Avanti II class at the Zone Meet? Nollie and his stinkin' '05 Avanti... lol

Matthew Burnette, the 16 year old Stude nut.
South Georgia Chapter Newsletter Editor
63 Daytona HT (project)
51 2R16 dump truck (yes, I won the raffle)
52 Commander Starliner (basket case)(will trade for another Stude <g&gt
MANY more Studes in the family and a few parts cars.
Click my name and check out "Links".

[studegary]

quote:Originally posted by DEEPNHOCK


What really and truly needs to be done, and done soon, is to have a separate class for the new Avanti's (AVX)..
No way in heck should a new 2006 Avanti with 100 miles on it be judged up against a 1983 Avanti.... But that's how it is right now.
Jeff[8D]

I tried to get a separate division for Studebaker related that would include separate classes for Pierce Arrow, '55-'58 Packard, post-Studebaker Avantis (more than one class), military, etc., but I was shot down. I find it hard to even consider post-1991 Avantis as Studebaker related.

Gary L.
1954 Commander Starliner (restomod)
1959 DeLuxe pickup (restomod)