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Swifster
06-13-2005, 10:32 AM
OK, first the numbers;

VIN: 64V-15003
Body Tag: 64V - J8
1354

Did the Studebaker plant have a 'body bank'? It seems as I read along here that the '1354' is the body number when welded up. If this is the case, by the seriel number, this was the 5003 car down the line. Is this possible? Would this body shell have sat at the plant while almost 3700 cars went before it did? Or is this the 1354th hardtop assembled?

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Tom - Sterling Heights, MI

Ancient Chinese Proverb: "Injection is nice, but I'd rather be blown!"

1964 Studebaker Daytona - Laguna Blue, Original 4-Spd. Car, Power Steering, Disc Brakes, Bucket Seats, Tinted Glass, Climatizer Ventilation System, AM Radio (136,989 Miles)

JDP
06-13-2005, 11:06 AM
1354th hardtop, 15003th V8, assuming the number did not get out of order.

Studebaker On The Net http://stude.com
64 R2 4 speed Challenger (Plain Wrapper)
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
55 Speedster
50 2R 10 truck

Swifster
06-13-2005, 12:02 PM
Didn't the VIN's start at 10001? So this would be the 5003rd car off the line? Did they run seperate serial numbers for 6's and 8's

64S-15003
64V-15003

There can be two cars with the same sequence number?

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Tom - Sterling Heights, MI

Ancient Chinese Proverb: "Injection is nice, but I'd rather be blown!"

1964 Studebaker Daytona - Laguna Blue, Original 4-Spd. Car, Power Steering, Disc Brakes, Bucket Seats, Tinted Glass, Climatizer Ventilation System, AM Radio (136,989 Miles)

JDP
06-13-2005, 12:38 PM
We both mispoke, they start at 1001.

Studebaker On The Net http://stude.com
64 R2 4 speed Challenger (Plain Wrapper)
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
55 Speedster
50 2R 10 truck

studegary
06-13-2005, 01:21 PM
1964 serial numbers start at 1001 with a different series of numbers for six and V8. Your car is the 14,003rd V8 and the 1354th hardtop body (out of 2414). I also want to mention that what you call a "VIN" is the serial number. Either the engine number or the serial number may have been used for the VIN (vehicle identification number), usually dependant on what state or country the vehicle was first titled/registered in. For most "late" model Studebakers, the S/N is used as the VIN.

Swifster
06-13-2005, 03:09 PM
quote:Originally posted by JDP

We both mispoke, they start at 1001.

[:I] DOH! :)

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Tom - Sterling Heights, MI

Ancient Chinese Proverb: "Injection is nice, but I'd rather be blown!"

1964 Studebaker Daytona - Laguna Blue, Original 4-Spd. Car, Power Steering, Disc Brakes, Bucket Seats, Tinted Glass, Climatizer Ventilation System, AM Radio (136,989 Miles)

Swifster
06-13-2005, 03:20 PM
quote:Originally posted by studegary

1964 serial numbers start at 1001 with a different series of numbers for six and V8. Your car is the 14,003rd V8 and the 1354th hardtop body (out of 2414). I also want to mention that what you call a "VIN" is the serial number. Either the engine number or the serial number may have been used for the VIN (vehicle identification number), usually dependant on what state or country the vehicle was first titled/registered in. For most "late" model Studebakers, the S/N is used as the VIN.

Has anyone seen a state that used the engine number as the VIN? Working in the insurance business, I've never seen a state that used the engine number. The reason would be that engines are replaceable and the body shell (and frame) is basically the car. Now I'm not saying this is an absolute, hence my question.

I've handled vintage insurance claims in Michigan, Ohio and Missouri and have yet to see this.

Also, how many had their cars (this may be limited to '64's) had there car title with an "I" instead of a "1"? When I got my car from California, the title was listed as 64V-I5003. I had already received a copy of the build sheet from the museum which obviously lists the number as a 1. The Michigan Secretary of State didn't have a problem changing this, but I'm curious is others have had this issue.

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Tom - Sterling Heights, MI

Ancient Chinese Proverb: "Injection is nice, but I'd rather be blown!"

1964 Studebaker Daytona - Laguna Blue, Original 4-Spd. Car, Power Steering, Disc Brakes, Bucket Seats, Tinted Glass, Climatizer Ventilation System, AM Radio (136,989 Miles)

Alan
06-13-2005, 03:38 PM
Here in the state of California they used the engine numbers as VIN's.
I have a 53K that my father bought new from the Kelly Kar Company in 53. He gave it to me in 1958 for my 15th birthday since my mother couldn't drive a stick. Still own it. I have a 53K that came from back east MD. It is regestered by the number on the Drivers side door piller.

JDP
06-13-2005, 03:40 PM
I just sold a 50 Commander Starlight coupe that was last titled in the late 50's in NY state and they used the engine number at that time, but no longer.

Studebaker On The Net http://stude.com
64 R2 4 speed Challenger (Plain Wrapper)
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
55 Speedster
50 2R 10 truck

Swifster
06-13-2005, 04:00 PM
quote:Originally posted by Alan

Here in the state of California they used the engine numbers as VIN's.
I have a 53K that my father bought new from the Kelly Kar Company in 53. He gave it to me in 1958 for my 15th birthday since my mother couldn't drive a stick. Still own it. I have a 53K that came from back east MD. It is regestered by the number on the Drivers side door piller.


Alan, are you sure about this? My California title used the numbers listed on the left door pillar. Maybe they switched between '53 and '64.

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Tom - Sterling Heights, MI

Ancient Chinese Proverb: "Injection is nice, but I'd rather be blown!"

1964 Studebaker Daytona - Laguna Blue, Original 4-Spd. Car, Power Steering, Disc Brakes, Bucket Seats, Tinted Glass, Climatizer Ventilation System, AM Radio (136,989 Miles)

Alan
06-13-2005, 04:37 PM
My father bought the car brand new he had to shop around because there were some things that he wanted on the car and the nearest dealer didn't want to special order for him. He was a doctor and wanted a drivers side spot light so he could see house numbers when on house calls if you can remember back to those times. I went with him wen he picked it up. When I got it the spotlight was the first thing to go. If you would like I would scan the regestration and e-mail it to you.

studegary
06-13-2005, 04:44 PM
In the '50s, New York State used the engine number for a VIN. In the '60s, they used the serial number for the VIN. I can't remember the exact year of switch over. My '53 Commander Starliner and '57 Golden Hawk (PS3000) were registered by engine number and my '63 Avanti and '63 Daytona Wagonaire were by serial number. I owned cars of the years in between these, but they weren't originally New York State cars. New York State only started vehicle titles with the 1973 model year. Ownership of prior years cars is by a transferable registration form. In New York, you can have the VIN changed from the engine number to the serial number. I always did this in the case of a swaped engine. I know that New York was not the only state that followed a system of using the engine number for the VIN and later switched over to the serial number for the VIN.

Swifster
06-13-2005, 06:09 PM
Alan, I believe you. I'm just surprised. As mentioned above, I bet the Cali DMV would switch to the serial number upon request. I guess it just shows how much things have improved. Back then, I bet the DMV's figuired that the engine would out last the body. Now it's the other way around.

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Tom - Sterling Heights, MI

Ancient Chinese Proverb: "Injection is nice, but I'd rather be blown!"

1964 Studebaker Daytona - Laguna Blue, Original 4-Spd. Car, Power Steering, Disc Brakes, Bucket Seats, Tinted Glass, Climatizer Ventilation System, AM Radio (136,989 Miles)

Dick Steinkamp
06-13-2005, 06:19 PM
Every Studebaker I've owned in California (10 or so from 53's to 64's) used the serial number on the door piller as the VIN on the title.
-Dick-

rockne10
06-13-2005, 06:42 PM
Studebaker always indicated the numeral 1 as a capital I when stamped on the VIN plate. Some years ago I read something giving the reason for this but don't remember what it was. When registering, if there is a capital I, it should be registered as a numeral 1. My 53 coupe tag says 83III43.

52hawk
06-13-2005, 06:43 PM
Studebaker always used the 'I' for the #1.Why,I don't think anybody knows..

not golden hawk,not silver hawk,just hawk.

Alan
06-13-2005, 07:07 PM
Last summer when I went to the DMV offices in Sacramento to regester a car I had bought more than 25 years ago and let sit around, was told by the woman who heads the archives that they had a fire in the microflitch section and they have no records of anything before 1985. The car had been totalted by the insurance co. and the sent the papers to Sac.I have had run ins with the DMV before, every time you go in they have new papers for you to fill out because the papers you got last time wern't enough. Then you have to go hassel with the CHP , lights, brake insp. ect. ect.Don't even dream of changing regestration numbers unless you want ulsers or wish to go crazy.

Sircocky
06-13-2005, 07:54 PM
rofl when these cars was build there was no 1 on the keyboard of a typewriter so we had to use I instead . :D Jack

52hawk
06-13-2005, 08:11 PM
Sircocky! How old ARE you??? WOW!!

not golden hawk,not silver hawk,just hawk.

PaulDriver
06-13-2005, 08:44 PM
Not true, fast typing practice dictated using l or I for 1 and O for 0 as your fingers never left the home row :) l for one was real common as no shift was necessary, that top row can really kill your typing speed, and when you are being paid by the piece (like medical transcription or court reporting) then these shortcuts become habit.

As a kid back in the early 80's I had lots of transcriptionists and clerks to retrain :)

Paul.

Roscomacaw
06-13-2005, 09:39 PM
Geez Gary! You screwed up! I can't BELIEVE IT![:0] You neglected to define that his car is not JUST the 1354th hardtop body welded up, but the 1354th VEE EIGHT hardtop body welded up.[}:)] (as per the "64V" part of his tag. There would have been another whole series of J8 bodies for 64S cars. This is indeed a sad day for Studedom.:( I think I'll have to spend time in morning. But it's roughly 10 hours to sunrise here, so I'll have a bit of a wait![:o)]

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

Roscomacaw
06-13-2005, 09:48 PM
Swiftster, particular type bodies were welded up, a number at a time in advance. This makes practical sense when you consider drawing out the individual parts to weld together and then using jig fixtures for a given body style to assemble the specific parts. Otherwise the guys in the body weld area would be jumping around to try and keep up with the demands of the daily production schedule.
So they'd do a number of V8-J8 bodies at once and they'd be stored in a holding area. Naturally, the lower line numbered bodies went into the storeroom first and so the last of a run would likely be the first ones drawn off that batch of V8-J8 bodies as production called for a V8-J8 car to be produced.
You can sorta think of a welded body tub just as you would a door handle or a speed nut. Grab the one closest at hand and use it to build a car. There was no attempt to keep the body numbers in sequence with respect to serial number sequences.;)

Oh - and California used Eng#s to register cars early on. I know some other states did too. I just had a guy call me the other night - all in a tizzy because the registration # didn't jive with the serial# on the door jamb of a '52 Stude he'd sold on ebay. The buyer was getting antsy and the DMV was suspicious. The moment he read me the number on the registration, I told him to go scrape away some grease on the engine block. About 15 minutes later, he called me back to say he was eternally grateful for my whizdumb!:D
I told him it was no big deal. The 53 I bought last year was registered by it's Eng# as well. Since I had to have the car's ID verified by a law officer (It had been off the road and unregistered for over 20 years), I just showed the patrolman the VIN tag on the door jamb and that's the way it'll be registered henceforth.[^]

studegib
06-13-2005, 11:14 PM
quote:Originally posted by Swifster


quote:Originally posted by studegary

1964 serial numbers start at 1001 with a different series of numbers for six and V8. Your car is the 14,003rd V8 and the 1354th hardtop body (out of 2414). I also want to mention that what you call a "VIN" is the serial number. Either the engine number or the serial number may have been used for the VIN (vehicle identification number), usually dependant on what state or country the vehicle was first titled/registered in. For most "late" model Studebakers, the S/N is used as the VIN.

Has anyone seen a state that used the engine number as the VIN? Working in the insurance business, I've never seen a state that used the engine number. The reason would be that engines are replaceable and the body shell (and frame) is basically the car. Now I'm not saying this is an absolute, hence my question.

I've handled vintage insurance claims in Michigan, Ohio and Missouri and have yet to see this.
Texas used the engine number until about '55, then switched.
Gib

Also, how many had their cars (this may be limited to '64's) had there car title with an "I" instead of a "1"? When I got my car from California, the title was listed as 64V-I5003. I had already received a copy of the build sheet from the museum which obviously lists the number as a 1. The Michigan Secretary of State didn't have a problem changing this, but I'm curious is others have had this issue.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom - Sterling Heights, MI

Ancient Chinese Proverb: "Injection is nice, but I'd rather be blown!"

1964 Studebaker Daytona - Laguna Blue, Original 4-Spd. Car, Power Steering, Disc Brakes, Bucket Seats, Tinted Glass, Climatizer Ventilation System, AM Radio (136,989 Miles)



Gib

Dick Steinkamp
06-14-2005, 08:43 AM
I don't get it about the V8 bodies being differentiated from the 6 cyl bodies. I believe Mr Biggs, but I can't imagine any differences between the two bodies and why Studebaker would sequence them differently. It seems it would only cause them trouble when the ratio between 6's and 8's was different than planned and they had too many of one and not enough of the other (even though they were idendical).

-Dick-

Sam Roberts
06-14-2005, 10:05 AM
My 1955, I bought it in 1993, has a VIN reflecting the motor number. It was brought to me from Missouri, and it had the motor number as VIN there as well. It is also the same number on the Build ticket, so I can only assume that was always the case, and it went to Tompkin-Seedberry dealership in Portsmouth, Virginia as it's 1st stop, in June of 1955.


quote:Originally posted by Mr.Biggs

Swiftster, particular type bodies were welded up, a number at a time in advance. This makes practical sense when you consider drawing out the individual parts to weld together and then using jig fixtures for a given body style to assemble the specific parts. Otherwise the guys in the body weld area would be jumping around to try and keep up with the demands of the daily production schedule.
So they'd do a number of V8-J8 bodies at once and they'd be stored in a holding area. Naturally, the lower line numbered bodies went into the storeroom first and so the last of a run would likely be the first ones drawn off that batch of V8-J8 bodies as production called for a V8-J8 car to be produced.
You can sorta think of a welded body tub just as you would a door handle or a speed nut. Grab the one closest at hand and use it to build a car. There was no attempt to keep the body numbers in sequence with respect to serial number sequences.;)

Oh - and California used Eng#s to register cars early on. I know some other states did too. I just had a guy call me the other night - all in a tizzy because the registration # didn't jive with the serial# on the door jamb of a '52 Stude he'd sold on ebay. The buyer was getting antsy and the DMV was suspicious. The moment he read me the number on the registration, I told him to go scrape away some grease on the engine block. About 15 minutes later, he called me back to say he was eternally grateful for my whizdumb!:D
I told him it was no big deal. The 53 I bought last year was registered by it's Eng# as well. Since I had to have the car's ID verified by a law officer (It had been off the road and unregistered for over 20 years), I just showed the patrolman the VIN tag on the door jamb and that's the way it'll be registered henceforth.[^]


Sam Roberts

studegary
06-14-2005, 12:57 PM
Thank you Bob/Mr.Biggs. When you hadn't jumped in on this S/N, engine no., VIN question, I gave my best stab at an answer. I should always defer to you on questions about body number tags. My overall answer was more correct than the earlier attempts at an answer.
Now when it comes to the tag on the A-pillar, that is not a "VIN tag" as you describe it. The number on that factory plate is a serial number that is sometimes used as a VIN (vehicle identification number).

studegary
06-14-2005, 01:08 PM
I worked on many typewriters that did not have a 1 on the keyboard. Even as recent as IBM Selectric typewriters, it depends on what typestyle element (ball) you have installed as to whether or not there was a 1 available. It was accepted practice to use an l (lower case L) as a 1 (number one). It was considered bad practice to use an I (upper case i) as a 1 (one), but I have seen it done. An l looks more like a 1 and you don't have to shift as you would for the I. Studebaker did use an I for a 1 on their serial number plates. I don't know the real reason why, but do know that it has caused a lot of confusion in later years. If we saw the machine that stamped the numbers at Studebaker, we would probably understand the 1/I situation. Perhaps the machine that stamped the serial number plates only had numbers 2 through 0 and upper case letters. That would explain the use of an I and neither an l nor a 1. When I say upper and lower case, I realize that there are probably many here who have never seen a typesetter work setting type from upper and lower cases. I do think that most people understand what upper and lower cases refers to without really knowing the basis of the terms.

Roscomacaw
06-14-2005, 03:03 PM
Gary,
I've got 5 or 6 California titles on my desk at the moment. All are for Studebaker vehicles. In the spot on these titles where it says "VIN" is where California elects to insert the serial # that identifies my Studes. I'd guess that if California is happy to denote that number as a VIN, I can feel safe in calling it that too. And I know that California's not the only state doing such.:D

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

studegary
06-14-2005, 04:34 PM
[quote]Originally posted by Mr.Biggs

Gary,
I've got 5 or 6 California titles on my desk at the moment. All are for Studebaker vehicles. In the spot on these titles where it says "VIN" is where California elects to insert the serial # that identifies my Studes. I'd guess that if California is happy to denote that number as a VIN, I can feel safe in calling it that too. And I know that California's not the only state doing such.:D


Bob - I think that we are agreeing, but are a little confused on the semantics of it all <G>. A Studebaker has an engine number and a serial number. Either one has been used as a vehicle identification number (VIN). That does not make either of those numbers a VIN, as such, it has just been used as a VIN, which is perfectly okay. If you look at one of the factory plates on the A-pillar of a Studebaker you will see that the number is labeled as a serial number, not a VIN. On new cars, where they have the number all over the place, they are called VINs. I agree that California, and other states, UTILIZE the serial number as a VIN. That doesn't make the serial number anything other than a serial number. The same logic applies to engine numbers. If a state uses the engine number as a VIN, that does not make the engine number anything other than the engine number. I know what I am trying to say, but it is difficult to put into words.

StudHawk60
06-14-2005, 05:00 PM
[xx(]My brain hurts from trying to follow along with this VIN/ serial number/ body number stuff.[xx(]

Roscomacaw
06-14-2005, 05:24 PM
Gary,

If it was 1955, I'd throw in with your argument. It's actualy 50 years later tho.[:0] What few cars are still registered with their engine numbers are anomalies in my book. EVEN Studebaker would've asked for the serial number if they wanted to make reference to a car for the sake of service or tracking. If the serial number would be what they used to "IDENTIFY" a particular car, then I figure it could be deemed a vehicle identification number.;)

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

Sircocky
06-14-2005, 08:08 PM
52hawk I am 73 and still working on them. But a kid in the 80s says I am wrong . :( Sorry I guess a man my age gets confused pretty easy.[:p]

Swifster
06-14-2005, 09:39 PM
quote:Originally posted by Sircocky

52hawk I am 73 and still working on them. But a kid in the 80s says I am wrong . :( Sorry I guess a man my age gets confused pretty easy.[:p]

I never knew about typewriters not having '1' keys. This makes a lot of sense to me. Remember, old age and trechery will beat youth and enthusiasm everytime :D.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom - Sterling Heights, MI

Ancient Chinese Proverb: "Injection is nice, but I'd rather be blown!"

1964 Studebaker Daytona - Laguna Blue, Original 4-Spd. Car, Power Steering, Disc Brakes, Bucket Seats, Tinted Glass, Climatizer Ventilation System, AM Radio (136,989 Miles)

PaulDriver
06-15-2005, 05:53 AM
quote:Originally posted by Sircocky

52hawk I am 73 and still working on them. But a kid in the 80s says I am wrong . :( Sorry I guess a man my age gets confused pretty easy.[:p]


I am corrected, the underwoods came standard with a 1 and a 0 key, the Sholes & Glidden Typewriter from 1874, the first "QWERTY" type writer, did not have a 1 or a 0 key.

http://www.officemuseum.com/1874_Sholes__Glidden_NMAH_SI_OM.jpg

The Underwood Model 5 (circa 1920), the second most sold type writer (after the selectric) in America, had both 1s and 0s.

Paul.

studegary
06-16-2005, 10:05 PM
For the past 40 years, I have primarily used IBM Selectric typewriters. Only on a few select typeheads (balls) do you get a 1. All typeheads that I have used have brackets in the position where a 1 would be. Today, I was at my father's home and looked at his IBM standard model (not Executive proportional spacing model) typebar typewriter. It does not have a 1 on it (just 2 through 0 in the number row).