Announcement

**Sonny** · 12-12-2004, 07:37 PM

Hmmm... It's probably just as easy to slap a 12 volt starter in it. I know that the starter can be rebuilt for 12 volts, but as far as a resistor, it would have to be Large to handle the amps. I'd be interested in the answer to this one too! [:0]

Sonny

RACING STUDEBAKERS - Index page

http://RacingStudebakers.com

**Roscomacaw** · 12-13-2004, 08:23 AM

Sonny, the trouble with slapping a 12volt unit in there is the difference in tooth count of the gears involved. The 6volt era cars and trucks had a different number of teeth on the bendix gear and the flywheel/torque convertor gear.
Frankly Dano, I'd just stick with what you've got. That starter can go for YEARS on 12 volts. I've done it with Studes (including my current 53 coupe) and I've got an 8N Ford tractor that I've had for 15 years now. In spite of converting it to 12 volts when I bought it, I've never had to change anything but the starter solenoid. And I only changed that because I wanted the ignition bypass provision that the 12volt solenoids allow. The old 6volt starter just spins pleasingly faster now.[^]

Miscreant at large.

**Sonny** · 12-13-2004, 09:39 AM

Oh yeah, I knew it would take some effort to configure. It amounts to a starter drive change. I'm almost positive that the starter drives, (Bendix), interchange between 6 and 12 volt starters. I'm gonna check that out when I get a chance.

But bottom line, I'm with you, I'd just go with what I have already. I've had the same luck, no real problem with using the 6 volt starter, unless the engine is hard starting and you try to grind away on it.

In fact, unless a fella needs to have a fancy 12 volt radio, I think the very best deal is using an 8 volt battery in the 6 volt system. [^]

Sonny

RACING STUDEBAKERS - Index page

http://RacingStudebakers.com

**Roscomacaw** · 12-13-2004, 11:08 AM

I could be wrong - it happened once before (first marriage [xx(]) - but I don't think you can change starter drives. [|)]

Miscreant at large.

**dan0** · 12-13-2004, 02:27 PM

Well she fires right up right now, but starting seems like a strain and I dunno, seems like I should find a way to step it dn. I had a good starter on it previously and it did NOT go for years...and I'm on the third in 4 yrs now. Granted my last had a broken armature shaft...This is why I feel the need to step it dn. Is there a way to use a 12V armature with a 6V drive?
dan0

Stuff:
1941 M15...retirement project
1953 2R11... daily ride
2001 F-350 Super Duty Lariat to haul it all..
1989 Caprice Classic Brougham
Sexy! 67' John Deere 112H

**Sam Roberts** · 12-13-2004, 02:49 PM

Sonny, I am having really good starts with a 6 volt everything in my '55 coupe. I had the starter rebuilt using the 4 pole GM system for 6 volt straight 8s, use a commercial grade battery, 6 volt by the way, rebuilt the generator, and a new ( 9 1/2 years ago ) voltage regulator. Six volt systems worked well for a lot of years, and still will if kept up to snuff. Downside is that you cannot have a 400 megawatt stereo system blasting out that good old rap music!

quote:Originally posted by Sonny

Oh yeah, I knew it would take some effort to configure. It amounts to a starter drive change. I'm almost positive that the starter drives, (Bendix), interchange between 6 and 12 volt starters. I'm gonna check that out when I get a chance.

But bottom line, I'm with you, I'd just go with what I have already. I've had the same luck, no real problem with using the 6 volt starter, unless the engine is hard starting and you try to grind away on it.

In fact, unless a fella needs to have a fancy 12 volt radio, I think the very best deal is using an 8 volt battery in the 6 volt system. [^]

Sonny

RACING STUDEBAKERS - Index page

http://RacingStudebakers.com

Sam Roberts

**Roscomacaw** · 12-13-2004, 03:46 PM

I have to throw in with Sam here. 6 volt WAS the rule for many decades. They didn't get away from it because one day the light bulb came on (pardon the pun) and they said - "WOW! TWELVE VOLTS will fix everything!" (Fact is, the 12 volt starters spin faster BECAUSE they're internally, much the same as 6volt starters!)[:0]
But the truth was/is that it was a matter of cost that led the charge (damned puns again!) to 12 volts. By raising the voltage of the system, they lowered the amps. And it's AMPS that dictate wire gage (diameter). Lesser diameter = lesser costs. Lesser costs = equals bigger profit margins. It's a bean-counter's no brainer!
It's not like the radio manufacturers had a glut of 12 volt radio chassis they were hopin' Detroit would build cars for. Same way for bulbs and the like. The move to higher volts meant lesser amps involved and that meant money in the bank.[8D]
I'd be willing to bet that the innards of a 12 volt starter aren't much different from those of a 6volt. Probably the engineers figured there wasn't much need to change them because more oomph was needed anyway as the industry went to higher compression ratios that dictated more zing![}

]
That all said, a good, clean, properly-sized (talking cables here) 6volt system should serve well and long. It's not inferior in any way.
I just helped a local guy with his 55 President. It wasn't cranking well on it's 6volt system. I advised him to do several starts, cold. Starting the engine, shutting it back off and then starting it again - maybe 5 or 6 repetitions.[:0]
Then I told him to get out and feel the cables and attachment points of them. He should be looking for warm or hot spots. He did so and found a faulty cable that way. Replaced the cable and the President now starts right up, warm or cold.

Miscreant at large.

**Sonny** · 12-13-2004, 09:25 PM

quote:Originally posted by Sam Roberts

Sonny, I am having really good starts with a 6 volt everything in my '55 coupe. I had the starter rebuilt using the 4 pole GM system for 6 volt straight 8s, use a commercial grade battery, 6 volt by the way, rebuilt the generator, and a new ( 9 1/2 years ago ) voltage regulator. Six volt systems worked well for a lot of years, and still will if kept up to snuff. Downside is that you cannot have a 400 megawatt stereo system blasting out that good old rap music!

Sam Roberts

Yep, I've had a number of 6 volt cars that started and ran real good too Sam, some are just as good as any 12 volt system. But, I've had a number of 6 volt cars that weren't any good at starting at all. I don't think there's anything more frustrating than listening to a 6 volt car just grinding away, trying to start, (and it seems like they just don't grind too long before the battery gives out either).

Dropping an 8 volt battery in turns the engine almost as fast as the 12 volt, is added insurance, the lights are brighter, and if it's a good 8 volt, a fella can hardly tell the difference in looks between an 8 and 6 volt battery.

I did notice that you mentioned that you had the GM 4 pole upgrade done, that helps! [^]

Sonny

RACING STUDEBAKERS - Index page

http://RacingStudebakers.com

**Roscomacaw** · 12-14-2004, 09:05 AM

Well Sonny - ask yourself this. Why were 8volt batteries to be had in the first place? If they'd been such a panacea for 6volt woes, why didn't the car makers just stick 8volt batteries in as a matter of course? It's because when their cars and trucks left the production lines, they started and performed to spec..
Hell - there used to be 6-12 batteries available too. These used to go thru most of their functions as 2 6volts in paralell. But for starting purposes they were configured, using a relay, into a series arrangement that afforded 12 volts to spin the starter. Again, not a factory offering by any maker that I know of.
In reality, those and 8volts were a "band-aid" to mask over the fact that the starter was worn or the cable ends weren't clean and tight or myriad other possibilities that would inhibit the full flo of amps a starter motor requests.
I worked in that resto shop for 4 or 5 years. We did restos, not cusstoms or rods. I remember we put 8volts in a couple of oldies but it wasn't the norm in most cases. Most times a fresh, tight motor could be made to fire and run on the 6volt system it had come with. But then - usually all the associated cables and such had been renewed as well as the starter. The degradation that would lead one to resort to upping the voltage is a result of lack of maintenace over time. 90% of the time it's inappropriately sized battery or ground cables OR dirty connection points for those cable's ends. I'm betting there's alot more starter rebuilds than are necessary. You know: "Geez - I gotta new battery! Must be the starter."[xx(]
I'm not saying an 8volt is bad. I'm just pointing out that it just circumvents whatever problems there are as opposed to addressing them. As an aside, 8volts will enhance the lights on a 6volt system. But so can installing a H/L relay. This takes out the resistance of the HL switch contacts and the dimmer switch contacts as well. Works pretty good actualy.[:0]
I'd not had a 6volt system in my life for years when I got this old tractor of ours some 15 years ago. Used to be agonizing to press the starter button and listen to it groan as it labored to turn the engine. If it was a damp day (most are here in the "winter" months), the ignition would resist behaving and I'd often wear the battery down trying to tease the thing to start. On a dry day tho - no problem.[8)]
When the generator wanted an overhaul, I decided to switch to 12 volts. Partly because I had about a half dozen auto alternators lying around and partly because I wanted to buy a spray rig that operated at 12 volts and I didn't want to have to carry a 12 volt battery around just to run the pump motor![V]
I went to the tractor supply place to see what a 12volt starter cost. The guy at the counter asked: "What's wrong with the starter that's on your tractor?" I answered that it was old and it was 6volt. He stated that the 6volt starter would perform just fine at 12 volts and by golly - 15 years later that starter still hasn't laid down on me!

I will defend a 6volt system to the end - on it's own merit. If you're gonna honestly RESTORE a vehicle, then it ought to be like it came off the assy line. But for practical purposes nowdays - things like A/C, modern sound systems and even the dwindling availabilty of 6 volt bulbs and such - going to 12 makes sense. And you get a kick-ass starter in the deal to boot!

Miscreant at large.

**Sam Roberts** · 12-14-2004, 11:57 AM

Did I mention that I only rebuilt that starter to 4 pole 1 1/2 years ago?

And we put the motor back in in 1996 after Ted Harbit bebuilt it for me. Point is, that commercial 6 volt battery, using a new voltage regulator, started quite well cold, and only showed resistance when the motor was hot. I rebuilt the generator not long after the starter by the way, in 2003. I concur with the big guy that properly maantained starting systems, and no matter the voltage, will not need tweaks, and wizardry to be reliable. Now if I could find a remedy for the fuel draining down out of that backdraft carburetor, I'd not have to crank that 259 for 20-30 seconds to start it after it has set a month!

That is only an opinion, your mileage may vary........

Sam Roberts

**dan0** · 12-15-2004, 03:54 PM

Step down converter. I asked an aircraft electrician and this is what he suggested...so now on to the auto parts stores.

dan0

Stuff:
1941 M15...retirement project
1953 2R11... daily ride
2001 F-350 Super Duty Lariat to haul it all..
1989 Caprice Classic Brougham
Sexy! 67' John Deere 112H

**Roscomacaw** · 12-15-2004, 04:10 PM

Well danO, I think you're making too much ado about nothing. But it is your vehicle. I'd like to know what a "step-down convertor" that can handle cranking amps is gonna look like and cost.
In my 31 years of Studebakering, I've yet to hear someone take the apporach you're taking. Not saying it's wrong, but either they just use the 6volt stuff as it is or they go to the trouble of changing starters and ring gear.
Maybe - as Sonny itimates - the bendix gears can be swapped. Somewhere, in the back of my aging head, I seem to recall that that can't be done. Of course, I'm ready to stand corrected. If I wasn't so busy, I'd get out some of the new bendix drives I have here and try fitting 12 to 6 and vise versa.[|)]

Miscreant at large.

**gordr** · 12-19-2004, 01:22 AM

I'm with Mr. Biggs on this one. If you can find a voltage convertor with enough capacity to run a starter motor, it'll probably take a wheelbarrow full of greenbacks to buy it.

A six volt starter can pull over 400 amps at times. That means the starter is using 2400 watts of power. If you use a voltage-dropping resistor, it will have to dissipate 2400 watts of power. And the problem with voltage-dropping resistors is that they have to be sized for the load, and a starter motor is a large, and variable load.

The only power-limiting scheme for the starter that I can see working, is to use some kind of solid-state switching network to control the duty cycle of the power going to the starter. This is the sort of thing that is used as the speed control on electric cars, or on a variable-speed electric drill, for that matter. I doubt there is a ready-made module that could do the job. Maybe you could have one built, if your pockets are deep enough.

I'd say, forget the whole idea. Run the six-volt starter on 12 volts, and it will last for years. The only caveat I'd offer is don't crank for extended periods. If the engine won't start in 30 seconds, give it a long rest. You can burn out a starter with overly long stints of cranking with the rated voltage, you know. Starters are intermittent-duty devices by their vary nature. Their normal operation is to be run briefly at what would constitute a severe overload for continuous operation. So you run your 6-volt starter on 12 volts, you are running it in slightly more severe overload mode, but for less time, as usually the engine will start faster when cranked faster.

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

**dan0** · 12-19-2004, 05:53 AM

I read where one has to swap the ring gear to use a 12V starter..guys I like a good challenge,

this may not work out but hey it's fun researching ain't it? She fires right off. I know that steppin down volts on a starter circuit would be a chore.
appreciate the comments ya'll oh , and... Merry X-mas!!

Stuff:
1941 M15...retirement project
1953 2R11... daily ride
2001 F-350 Super Duty Lariat to haul it all..
1989 Caprice Classic Brougham
Sexy! 67' John Deere 112H

Announcement

How can I step down from 12...

How can I step down from 12...

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment