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herbpcpa
02-24-2010, 08:42 PM
Please correct any errors in this information.

Original prototype Avanti, later “Due Cento”
Being restored as Due Cento with R5 engine.

Bonneville #8 backup car 63R1014 (red)
Being restored in Maryland(?), engine gone.

Bonneville #9 record setting car 63R1007 (gold)
California Automobile Museum Sacramento

Sherwood Egbert’s Avanti, prototype of R3 Avantis
Sold at auction in 2009 ($78,000)

64R5089 Turquoise 4 speed
In pieces near Joliet Il, engine in bad condition

64R5237 Black 4 speed
AOAI member in Ohio

64R5394 White 4 speed
Sold in 2007, location unknown

64R5532 Turquoise 4 speed
Location unknown, engine replaced with a different R3

64R5546 Gold 4 Speed
Sold in 2007, location unknown

64R5593 Gray automatic
AOAI member in Ohio

64R5625 Black automatic
Sitting in a warehouse in Michigan(?), Studebaker promotional car(?).

64R5642 White automatic
John O’Quinn Estate, Houston Texas. To be sold at auction March 2010.

64R5643 White automatic
Crawford Museum Cleveland Ohio

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj261/herbpcpa/1267050532.jpg
#9 Bonneville Avanti
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj261/herbpcpa/1267050417.jpg
64R5089
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj261/herbpcpa/1267050416.jpg
64R5642
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj261/herbpcpa/1267050266.jpg
Sherwood Egbert's Avanti
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj261/herbpcpa/1267112817.jpg
#8 Bonneville Avanti
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj261/herbpcpa/1267125887.jpg
64R5643

I once received an email which gave more information on the location of 64R5532 and 64R5625 but I can not now locate the information.
I believe that 64R5625 was a car used as a promotional car by Studebaker but again I can not locate the details.

Gunslinger
02-24-2010, 09:08 PM
The #8 Bonneville car is a few miles from me. It has a genuine R3 engine, though not the engine it ran with at Bonneville. I don't see where the car is being "restored", but the R3 engine is out of it and is being rebuilt.

I have photos of the car as it sits. The car's serial number is 63R1014.




Poet...Mystic...Soldier of Fortune. As always...self-absorbed, adversarial, cocky and in general a malcontent.

PackardV8
02-25-2010, 09:51 AM
JMHO, but

quote:Original prototype Avanti, later “Due Cento”
Being restored as Due Cento with R5 engine. reportedly received a Paxton-Products-shop-built-hot-rod 299" engine which was never stamped/numbered as an R3. Yes, it can be considered as the development prototype for the R3s, but is not/was not an R3 and from those who were there, the engine differed in several internal and external details from the production engines. Ironically, its 299" was faster than the production 304.5" cars.

thnx, jack vines

PackardV8

studegary
02-25-2010, 01:29 PM
There are only nine true Studebaker production R3 Avantis.

Gary L.
Wappinger, NY

SDC member since 1968
Studebaker enthusiast much longer

wcarroll@outrageous.net
02-25-2010, 05:04 PM
I know it's popular to set Land Speed Records with Studebakers that are powered by non-Studebaker engines, but this is the first Weedeater engine swap I've ever seen [:o)]

Should be interesting to see how #8 performs on the course once they finish the swap.




http://community.webshots.com/user/s2dbaker?vhost=community

rcrall
05-09-2018, 09:01 AM
There is at least one more, the Hot Rod Magazine R3 Road Test car (63R-1025) was used by Andy Granatelli as his personal car until the vehicle was sold to Paxton (Factory invoice to Paxton $500) in July 64 months after production ceased. Vince Granatelli purchased it, later sold it to Bill Alderman who sold it to me fall of 69.

rkapteyn
05-09-2018, 09:48 AM
64R5089 Turquoise 4 speed was completely restored by Randy Rapp of Collinsville Illinois and shown at the Rosemont muscle car show in 2016.
The engine was rebuild by Automachine in St.Charles Illinois https://www.stcharlesil.gov/business/listings/auto-machine
They also rebuild many high performance Studebaker V8 engines and are the best.
This is a before picture of the car in my building
http://www.studebaker-info.org/AVDB1/R5000/64R5089/r5089c.html
Robert Kapteyn

8E45E
05-09-2018, 01:07 PM
64R5089 Turquoise 4 speed was completely restored by Randy Rapp of Collinsville Illinois and shown at the Rosemount muscle car show in 2016.

That car, as well as Avanti #8, and Avanti #9 were all present together at that show: http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?95460-2016-Midwest-Muscle-Car-Show/page2&highlight=mcacn

Craig

bezhawk
05-09-2018, 07:43 PM
7234672347 I worked on both the first one, and the last one from the Crawford Museum. Here is a picture the them both together.

Avantict
05-11-2018, 03:13 PM
Does anyone know how to open if possible the photo bucket icon listed in this thread? I have a phonebook account and would like to view the pictures if possible?

Any help appreciated

rcrall
02-27-2019, 11:13 AM
JMHO, but
reportedly received a Paxton-Products-shop-built-hot-rod 299" engine which was never stamped/numbered as an R3. Yes, it can be considered as the development prototype for the R3s, but is not/was not an R3 and from those who were there, the engine differed in several internal and external details from the production engines. Ironically, its 299" was faster than the production 304.5" cars.

thnx, jack vines

PackardV8

Ron Hall's Avanti was the 1st to hit 200mph at Salt Lake. I understand it used modified Golden Hawk heads. Don't know about the last Granatelli runs at Salt Lake, but early ones used the 299cid engines that had ported/polished R2 heads with modified valve trains like the ones on my car (R1025, the Hot Rod Magazine R3 road test car). I have heard that the R3 heads and manifold had runners that were too large to provide optimum performance and that a modified R2 head could provide greater output. Perhaps on the 340/360cid engines being developed they would have worked better.

PackardV8
02-27-2019, 01:03 PM
Ron Hall's Avanti was the 1st to hit 200mph at Salt Lake. I understand it used modified Golden Hawk heads. Don't know about the last Granatelli runs at Salt Lake, but early ones used the 299cid engines that had ported/polished R2 heads with modified valve trains like the ones on my car (R1025, the Hot Rod Magazine R3 road test car). I have heard that the R3 heads and manifold had runners that were too large to provide optimum performance and that a modified R2 head could provide greater output. Perhaps on the 340/360cid engines being developed they would have worked better.

Yes, agree, the Avanti with which PaxtonGranatelli ran 170 MPH at Bonneville was actually a California hot rod 299" with ported stock heads; nothing in it was production R3.

Your opinions and experiences may vary, but the R3 heads and intake work well on both OEM and modified engines. Even after the best R2 heads have had $2,000 in porting and valve work, the R3 will usually develop about 5-10% more horsepower.

FWIW, the blueprints called for the R3 heads to be hand ported. Most were never ported to their maximum performance potential. From a reliable source, if a buyer came in to Paxton to buy R3 heads and wanted them ported, they were sent out to Joe Mondello and the porting cost as much as the bare heads.

jack vines

VtMike
02-27-2019, 01:20 PM
rcrall - Greetings from Vermont . . . on another single-digit temp day in paradise.

I think I read somewhere that, when preparing the Hot Rod Magazine Avanti, instead of boring the engine from 289 to 299, Andy Granatelli stroked it to 299. The thing I read said that Andy wanted that Avanti to really perform, and stroking it to 299 created more torque than boring. With more torque, the magazine car would do better in the 0-60 and 1/4 mile magazine tests. I think I also read that none of the other R3s could match the acceleration of the Hot Rod Magazine car.

Is that the car you have? I wondered if you have any info that would shed light on whether this story is true?

Also, if stroking gave the 299 more torque, why weren't the rest of the R3 engines stroked instead of bored? I would imagine either production difficulty or cost may have been an issue, but that is just a wild guess??

PackardV8
02-27-2019, 02:46 PM
I think I read somewhere that,

This is an apocryphal story which continues to make the rounds here year after year. Until one can supply a link to a reliable source where the rest of us can read up on it, the stroker allegation does not agree with anything I've read in any magazine accounts from that time period.

My own source is second hand, but he was there at the time and states the 299" was just the common .060" overbore.


Also, if stroking gave the 299 more torque, why weren't the rest of the R3 engines stroked instead of bored?

Because despite bench racing legend, that's not really how it works. In any case, to stroke from 3.625" to 3.75" to get to 299" would require an expensive welded crankshaft and would also require custom pistons. Since the cost for the stroker would be twice as much as the overbore and the suggestion it would make more horsepower is not substantiated by any DynoSim programs or real world experience, it's unlikely to have occurred.

We've had unlikely things proven true, but this one still awaits verification.

jack vines

sgriggs
02-28-2019, 12:22 PM
I thought the 299 cu in engine from the Hot Rod magazine test car is still around. Seems like the truth behind this story would be known.

I agree it sounds a little far-fetched that anyone would go to such lengths to achieve 10 more cubic inches when a simple bore job would do the trick.

rcrall
02-28-2019, 01:32 PM
rcrall - Greetings from Vermont . . . on another single-digit temp day in paradise.

I think I read somewhere that, when preparing the Hot Rod Magazine Avanti, instead of boring the engine from 289 to 299, Andy Granatelli stroked it to 299. The thing I read said that Andy wanted that Avanti to really perform, and stroking it to 299 created more torque than boring. With more torque, the magazine car would do better in the 0-60 and 1/4 mile magazine tests. I think I also read that none of the other R3s could match the acceleration of the Hot Rod Magazine car.

Is that the car you have? I wondered if you have any info that would shed light on whether this story is true?

Also, if stroking gave the 299 more torque, why weren't the rest of the R3 engines stroked instead of bored? I would imagine either production difficulty or cost may have been an issue, but that is just a wild guess??

R1025 is the HRM road test car and other than color and some miles is as it was in 1963.
As a general rule, stroking produces more torque, boring produces more HP. Longer stroke also tends to limit RPM, however; this engine was run to 8k RPM by Andy G.

Regarding the truth of the story, I have spoken numerous times to Vince G. and had one long conversation with Andy G regarding the car and both verified that what you heard was accurate.

There is a 4 page article in this month's AOAI magazine that provides considerable information regarding R1025's history.

rcrall
02-28-2019, 01:46 PM
This is an apocryphal story which continues to make the rounds here year after year. Until one can supply a link to a reliable source where the rest of us can read up on it, the stroker allegation does not agree with anything I've read in any magazine accounts from that time period.

My own source is second hand, but he was there at the time and states the 299" was just the common .060" overbore.

Because despite bench racing legend, that's not really how it works. In any case, to stroke from 3.625" to 3.75" to get to 299" would require an expensive welded crankshaft and would also require custom pistons. Since the cost for the stroker would be twice as much as the overbore and the suggestion it would make more horsepower is not substantiated by any DynoSim programs or real world experience, it's unlikely to have occurred.

We've had unlikely things proven true, but this one still awaits verification.

jack vines

7914979150
R1025 was a one-off that Paxton built for Andy to drag race and to be loaned to magazines to road test. I do have the invoice copy selling the car to Paxton and production papers referencing Granatelli. It cost a lot to add very little performance but Andy wanted to beat Hemi's with it and was able to do it if he had 1/2 mile to do it. Riverside had a 1/2 mile drag strip at the time and Andy repeatedly beat 426 Hemi's there.

This months AOAI magazine has a 4 page article on R1025

rcrall
02-28-2019, 01:58 PM
I thought the 299 cu in engine from the Hot Rod magazine test car is still around. Seems like the truth behind this story would be known.

I agree it sounds a little far-fetched that anyone would go to such lengths to achieve 10 more cubic inches when a simple bore job would do the trick.

The June 1963 issue of Hot Rod Magazine wrote a positive article "Stude's Hottest! - Avanti R-3" The car was prepared so magazines would be impressed with the car's acceleration. Magazines were unlikely to find a place where a top speed run could be done, but did comment about 1/4 mile times. Andy wanted to beat 426 Hemi's with an Avanti. The .060 over engine fell a little short. This was a one off that likely gave up some top speed to accelerate just a little better. Given 1/2 mile Andy could beat the Hemi and Riverside had a 1/2 mile drag strip back then.

PackardV8
02-28-2019, 03:40 PM
As a general rule, stroking produces more torque, boring produces more HP. Longer stroke also tends to limit RPM, .Going to have to disagree on the theory given above. No matter how many times incorrect information is repeated, it's still incorrect. Volumetric efficiency doesn't relate to bore or stroke.

There’s a myth out there that stroking is more effective at increasing torque than boring out. The rationale is that with longer stroke, the piston has more lever arm on the crank, ergo more torque. But if you increase bore you get exactly the same effect. In both cases, you increase displacement. The torque you get is force times lever arm, and force is pressure times area. In both cases pressure is same (it depends on basic thermodynamics), so the effect is basically area times stroke (which is displacement). In stroked case, area is same, but stroke is larger. In bored case, stroke is same but area is larger. Works out to exactly the same provided in both cases the displacement increase is same. Run a dyno simulation or an actual dyno test of a real engine. Changing bore or stroke produces the same horsepower from the same cubic inches. The idea that a longer stroke 299" Studebaker V8 would produce more torque than a larger bore 299" will not be proven true.

jack vines

t walgamuth
02-28-2019, 03:51 PM
Going to have to disagree on the theory given above. No matter how many times incorrect information is repeated, it's still incorrect. Volumetric efficiency doesn't relate to bore or stroke.
Run a dyno simulation or an actual dyno test of a real engine. Changing bore or stroke produces the same horsepower from the same cubic inches. The idea that a longer stroke 299" Studebaker V8 would produce more torque than a larger bore 299" will not be proven true.

jack vines

Sounds like you have done it?

PackardV8
02-28-2019, 04:15 PM
Sounds like you have done it?

A small block Chevy 383" (4.030 x 3.75") and a 380" (4.155" x 3.48") dyno tested within one lbs/ft of torque when using the same cam and heads.

jack vines

jts359
02-28-2019, 04:20 PM
I'm pretty sure there were no 426 Hemi's in 1963 , The 426 Max wedge is another story , Ed

PackardV8
02-28-2019, 04:32 PM
I'm pretty sure there were no 426 Hemi's in 1963 , The 426 Max wedge is another story , EdFor true. Here's the Hot Rod Magazine R3 Road Test:
Out first outing with the R3 was at a drag meet using the back stretch of the Riverside International Raceway. The sponsoring Southern California Timing Association conducts occasional 1/2-mile drags on this long stretch. We had the prototype 299-inch R3 for this meet and a 4.09 rear axle ratio. Regular 6.70 x 15 street tires were fitted. The transmission was Studebaker's automatic made by Borg-Warner with ratios of 2.40, 1.47 and 1:1. On our first run, we found that the Avanti would not take off from the line in sensational fashion due to the relatively small displacement and the fact that blower boost does not really come on strong until the engine reaches about 3000 rpm. No matter how we tried driving the car, starts were slow. But, once the engine got above 3000 rpm, it started to move and felt very strong. We made the 1-2 shift at 6200 but engine acceleration was so rapid that the tach touched 7000 just as the automatic shifted. Again, the 2-3 shift was made at 6200 and this time the action was quicker with the tach reaching about 6500. At the end of the half-mile, the tach showed 6700. We made several runs during the day, changed to larger street tires, changed plugs and tried several driving styles. The best results were 128.94 mph and 21.30 seconds elapsed time. SCTA uses only speed for their half-mile records and we discovered that the Avanti had raised the class record by almost 6 mph. As a comparative figure, the hottest Super Stocker time recorded in the half was 136 mph by a 426 Plymouth.jack vines

Jessie J.
02-28-2019, 05:33 PM
With a Factory budget and tasked with Studebaker's Performance engine development, it is not inconceivable that the Granatelli's seeking a bit more would assemble a test mule based on a commonly accepted theory.
Whether the theory was right or wrong, they managed to produce incredible results.

As far as spending money, has it ever been determined whether they moved the valve guides further apart on those initial 'highly reworked' R-2 becomes "R-3" cylinder heads?
It would be interesting to closely examine Granetelli's work on the "R-3" engine of (63R-1025)
Highly unlikely that the Granatelli's had DynoSim programs to go by. Far more likely 'seat of the pants' and E.T. and Speed numbers.

Jessie J.
02-28-2019, 05:45 PM
A few minutes with a spark plug wrench and a stiff piece of wire could verify the stroke.
Is it possible that Andy and Vince were doing a bit of 'bench racing'? Only one way to know.

jnormanh
02-28-2019, 06:23 PM
I was a college student in Jackson, MS when the R3 was on the lot for sale. Of course neither we nor the dealer had any way to know that so few would be built.

A friend and I pretended to be potential buyers, and took it for a test ride. We'd run it up against the brakes, sidestep the brake pedal and see how far it would spin the tires.

A few weeks later we took a FI Corvette for a similar test ride. Rev it to 5000, sidestep the clutch.

The Avanti would spin the tires. The Corvette would melt them.

Sounds like heresy today. But they were "just" cars. And it was fun.

Alan
02-28-2019, 06:40 PM
Those Jackson dealers were very trusting. In 63 I went to Keys Motors on Lankershim Blvd. in North Hollywood. They had a white R1 in their show room. It was $5,500. When I asked for a test ride, they said that the car was ordered by and waiting on the customer to pick it up. I told him it was alright if I am going to spend $5,500 on a car, it will be a Cadillac.

rcrall
02-28-2019, 07:21 PM
For true. Here's the Hot Rod Magazine R3 Road Test:jack vines

Jack,

I do not dispute your information, however; roll back to the early 60's, My comments are an attempt to refer to what was accepted knowledge of the time. Bigger is better, and the more fuel you burn the more horsepower you create, bore -> HP, Stroke -> torque. 426 Hemi's were just being delivered about the time the HRM Road Test was being published. Not sure what Andy was referring to when he said 426's, assumed Hemi, but could have been wedge's.

That said, I have no axe to grind, and am impressed by your vernacular. More expected from a Packard owner than a Studebaker owner. Am I correct in thinking that you live in the New England area? If so would look forward to an evening where overstuffed furniture, a fireplace and some great spirits could lead to some relaxed conversation. I have read your posts for years and am impressed by your knowledge.

I have owned R1025 since the late 60's, and have had multiple conversations with the Granatelli's about it. The article in the current AOAI issue came about because John Hull called me some time ago asking if I owned R1025. He was doing research for a possible new book relating to the first Avanti's. Vince Granatelli told him that to be comprehensive he needed to look past the first 10 and include R1025 as it was the car Paxton used to develop the R3's. John called me inquiring about my Avanti. When It was determined that R1025 was in fact mine and parked out back in my hanger we began a long conversation. Information that I forwarded to him eventually evolved to become the article that is in the current AOAI publication. John's conversations with the Studebaker museum eventually led to the location of the production documentation that noted that R1025 was for A Granatelli.

I agree with everyone that states that there were only 9 FACTORY PRODUCTION R3's. That said, the cars that made records at Bonneville, the Hot Rod Magazine and other R3 Road Tests and articles, and the Sherwood Egbert R3 were all cars produced before the first FACTORY PRODUCTION R3 was ever produced, therefore; there are a few other FACTORY (albeit non production) R3's that do exist, in fact by the time the first "FACTORY PRODUCTION R3" was produced the curtain was coming down on South Bend production and to the best of my knowledge none of the 9 "FACTORY PRODUCTION R3s" had any significant role regarding Studebaker's reputation as being a manufacturer of high performance vehicles, that ship had already sailed.

Early R3s, sometimes referred to as "A" engines (299cid) were followed by the 304.5cid "B" engines. Many of the records and much of the publication about R3's were cars with "A" engines. My car, per Paxton is an R3. That said, it is probably the most unique of all of the R3's. I have no desire to defame it's producers as I respect their intentions and capabilities, however; when the car was produced, cheating was not unheard of. R1025 was produced to allow Studebaker to promote it's new performance vehicle in the best way that the team at Paxton could, and some minor deviations from future production engines was probably not beyond the scope of the project. I understand that it was produced so Andy could beat "426's" in drag races and to have a car that could be given to the press to test that would demonstrate that Studebaker was a manufacturer of performance vehicles.

Love to meet you some time Jack. My farm is not too far from Kennybunkport Me.

Ron

studegary
02-28-2019, 08:16 PM
"Am I correct in thinking that you live in the New England area? If so would look forward to an evening where overstuffed furniture, a fireplace and some great spirits could lead to some relaxed conversation. I have read your posts for years and am impressed by your knowledge."
If you have been reading Jack's posts for years, I am surprised that you haven't noticed his address with every post as; "Spokane, WA, USA".

PackardV8
02-28-2019, 09:13 PM
Love to meet you some time Jack. My farm is not too far from Kennybunkport Me.

Ron

Greetings, Ron,

Thanks for the kind invitation and who knows, it could happen. Back when I traveled on business, I was in ME twice a year; lovely state.

jack

Hawklover
02-28-2019, 11:30 PM
Jackson, MS....brings back memories.........dated a gal from Crystal Springs, MS.....father was Highway Patrol and would routinely beat out most MoPars of the day......did not want to mess with MS Highway cops.
I was a college student in Jackson, MS when the R3 was on the lot for sale. Of course neither we nor the dealer had any way to know that so few would be built.

A friend and I pretended to be potential buyers, and took it for a test ride. We'd run it up against the brakes, sidestep the brake pedal and see how far it would spin the tires.

A few weeks later we took a FI Corvette for a similar test ride. Rev it to 5000, sidestep the clutch.

The Avanti would spin the tires. The Corvette would melt them.

Sounds like heresy today. But they were "just" cars. And it was fun.

rcrall
03-01-2019, 07:20 AM
"Am I correct in thinking that you live in the New England area? If so would look forward to an evening where overstuffed furniture, a fireplace and some great spirits could lead to some relaxed conversation. I have read your posts for years and am impressed by your knowledge."
If you have been reading Jack's posts for years, I am surprised that you haven't noticed his address with every post as; "Spokane, WA, USA".



I live in a 240 year old home on a 53 acre farm a little north west of Kennebunkport Maine.

We'll have to find an excuse to do that sometime.

jts359
03-01-2019, 08:23 AM
Andy Granitelli should know something about mopars as here is a Picture of his 62 Plymouth he raced at Bonneville . It has two Paxtons on it and is a wedge . I don't know if they were 413 or 426 , The car is in Don Garlits Museum in Ocala Fla 7917279172

rcrall
03-01-2019, 08:24 AM
With a Factory budget and tasked with Studebaker's Performance engine development, it is not inconceivable that the Granatelli's seeking a bit more would assemble a test mule based on a commonly accepted theory.
Whether the theory was right or wrong, they managed to produce incredible results.

As far as spending money, has it ever been determined whether they moved the valve guides further apart on those initial 'highly reworked' R-2 becomes "R-3" cylinder heads?
It would be interesting to closely examine Granetelli's work on the "R-3" engine of (63R-1025)
Highly unlikely that the Granatelli's had DynoSim programs to go by. Far more likely 'seat of the pants' and E.T. and Speed numbers.

I believe that your first comment is spot on. No rocket science, just basic hot rodding. My brother Brian has owned a Ferrari shop most of his life. One of his acquaintances is Ryan Falconer, owner of Ryan Falconer Racing Engines and former employee of Vince Granatelli. They have had conversations about when the R3 was being developed and computers were not involved in the development process.

Regarding R1025's heads, valve spacing is unchanged from 289 heads. It has triple valve springs, the spring retainers appear to be hand machined with each being slightly unique. The combustion chamber looks very much like an R3 chamber being more rounded and the ridge between the valves is gone. The runners have been enlarged and are extremely smooth.

It has been decades since the engine was open but my brother Doug did notice that there had been a lot of attention paid to the crank. We never thought of doing any measurement, we just checked to bore and it was stock 289. Next time I spoke to Vince I challenged him about the displacement. That was when he advised that they had stroked the engine instead. Andy later independently made the same statement. Those two comments aside, it has never been verified and my attempts to check by pulling a plug and measuring the stroke with a piece of welding rod has yielded results that are far from consistent. I think that the odds are in favor of it having been done as I got independent statements separated by at least a couple of years from both Vince and Andy regarding it being stroked.

I feel very fortunate that I have had the opportunity to talk to the Granatelli's about the car. My conversation with Andy was not that long before he passed. Vince has been very gracious and provided me with personal contact information should I ever wish to call him. Vince also told John Hull that he needed to research R1025 if he wanted to write about the vehicles beginning.

8E45E
03-01-2019, 08:43 AM
I wonder if engineering drawings for your engine were made, or if Granatelli did all this 'on the fly'. It would be nice for you to have a copies of the engineering drawings for the car's archives/documentation if any exist.

Craig

Jessie J.
03-01-2019, 09:03 AM
Thanks for the further input Ron. Recognizing that Andy and Vince had much more going on in their lives than old Studebaker's projects from the early '60s, makes their personal statements all the more significant.
In other words, there would be no rational reason for them to 'bench race' reason' or to inflate after the fact, or in anyway influence your views regarding the specifics of their engine build of R1025.
That they would both give the same recollection, separated by years, is quite telling that a stroked crank was in fact employed in that engine's build.
Given what you remember from your personal examination, my bet is that it still has the custom stroked crank assembly that the Granatelli's installed.

Just a few questions to satisfy my curiosity. Does R1025 still start and run? I don't mean road worthy.
Do you have any intent of restoring it? I mean returning the body and interior to its as Granatelli owned condition.

rcrall
03-01-2019, 09:30 AM
Thanks for the further input Ron. Recognizing that Andy and Vince had much more going on in their lives than old Studebaker's projects from the early '60s, makes their personal statements all the more significant.
In other words, there would be no rational reason for them to 'bench race' reason' or to inflate after the fact, or in anyway influence your views regarding the specifics of their engine build of R1025.
That they would both give the same recollection, separated by years, is quite telling that a stroked crank was in fact employed in that engine's build.
Given what you remember from your personal examination, my bet is that it still has the custom stroked crank assembly that the Granatelli's installed.

Just a few questions to satisfy my curiosity. Does R1025 still start and run? I don't mean road worthy.
Do you have any intent of restoring it? I mean returning the body and interior to its as Granatelli owned condition.

R1025 had some body damage before I moved from the SF Bay Area to Maine in 2000. Son took it through a farmers barbed wire fence. Some cracks, lots of deep scratches, damaged front bumper and radiator. Car was daily driver at the time.

Just in time for the Warwick show we finished repairs and threw some paint at it. Certainly not show quality but presentable. Currently replacing 4 lobe Mallory with stock Prestolite distributor so technically not running and too cold go go out to finish so just sitting in hanger.

Car has never seen salt and has a little over 90k miles. The chassis is pristine. Other than color, wheels/tires, and dual master cylinder car is unchanged from Paxton days.

I have enjoyed the car for 50 years and it's not on my son's radar. At some point i expect that it will find a new owner that will decide it's future. Until then I'll pull it out on nice summer days and cruse New England.

rcrall
03-01-2019, 09:42 AM
I wonder if engineering drawings for your engine were made, or if Granatelli did all this 'on the fly'. It would be nice for you to have a copies of the engineering drawings for the car's archives/documentation if any exist.

Craig
I have never heard of any drawings and seriously doubt any exist. The heads are custom modifications of the stock parts. The crank would have been a 1 off custom piece. The cam has the 276 degree part number so likely a stock R3 component. Andy said the first R3 carb enclosures were received only a couple of days prior to the car being turned over to Hot Rod Magazine. It has the 6k tach and and per Andy had an 8k aftermarket attached to the steering column. My brothers exchanges with Falconer suggest that the shop had a bunch of really capable machinists that could make prototype components on the fly.

Jessie J.
03-01-2019, 10:18 AM
Just a thought Ron, If you do get it running, make sure all sections of old rubber fuel line have been replaced.
And always keep a fire extinguisher (or two) onboard. Too many Avanti's have already been offered up to the fire god.
Enjoy. I'm green with envy. :)

studegary
03-01-2019, 10:19 AM
"Until then I'll pull it out on nice summer days and cruse New England."

Perhaps the SDC Northeast Zone Meet in Syracuse, NY 8/15-8/17 would be a good exposure/cruise for it.

jpepper
03-01-2019, 10:33 AM
64R5089 Turquoise 4 speed was completely restored by Randy Rapp of Collinsville Illinois and shown at the Rosemont muscle car show in 2016.
The engine was rebuild by Automachine in St.Charles Illinois https://www.stcharlesil.gov/business/listings/auto-machine
They also rebuild many high performance Studebaker V8 engines and are the best.
This is a before picture of the car in my building
http://www.studebaker-info.org/AVDB1/R5000/64R5089/r5089c.html
Robert Kapteyn

I had the original block for that car for about 20 years (B-10). Bob and I did a little horse trading and it was returned to the original car. I'm glad it worked out.

jpepper
03-01-2019, 10:48 AM
Yes, agree, the Avanti with which PaxtonGranatelli ran 170 MPH at Bonneville was actually a California hot rod 299" with ported stock heads; nothing in it was production R3.

Your opinions and experiences may vary, but the R3 heads and intake work well on both OEM and modified engines. Even after the best R2 heads have had $2,000 in porting and valve work, the R3 will usually develop about 5-10% more horsepower.

FWIW, the blueprints called for the R3 heads to be hand ported. Most were never ported to their maximum performance potential. From a reliable source, if a buyer came in to Paxton to buy R3 heads and wanted them ported, they were sent out to Joe Mondello and the porting cost as much as the bare heads.

jack vines

When ROn's engine was being developed, a set of R3 heads were flow tested. It was found that material had to be added to the port floor to make them work well. Yes they flow better than a stock head but a stock head can be made to out perform a stock R3 head. I bought B-110 from Joe Granatelli in fall of 1969. It was supplied as a short block because Paxton no longer had heads. Joe mentioned to me that they could modify my heads to out perform the R3 versions. I opted not to do that. When you are 18 and out of money, it happens. That is why GH castings were used on Ron's engine. The engine makes 630 HP with 6#'s boost. We measured over 1200 CFM of air at the intake of the blower at 7000 RPM. R3 heads never were developed. I am sure refinements would have happened had Studebakers plans continued.

rcrall
03-01-2019, 12:06 PM
Just a thought Ron, If you do get it running, make sure all sections of old rubber fuel line have been replaced.
And always keep a fire extinguisher (or two) onboard. Too many Avanti's have already been offered up to the fire god.
Enjoy. I'm green with envy. :)



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The fuel pressure gauge is connected with a rubber hose filled with fuel. An extinguisher is always in the car.

rcrall
03-01-2019, 12:11 PM
"Until then I'll pull it out on nice summer days and cruse New England."

Perhaps the SDC Northeast Zone Meet in Syracuse, NY 8/15-8/17 would be a good exposure/cruise for it.



Sounds like a plan.

8E45E
03-01-2019, 01:06 PM
Perhaps the SDC Northeast Zone Meet in Syracuse, NY 8/15-8/17 would be a good exposure/cruise for it.

Another excellent venue will be at the annual Muscle Car & Corvette Nationals show in Rosemont, (IL) in November.

Craig

sweetolbob
03-01-2019, 01:08 PM
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The fuel pressure gauge is connected with a rubber hose filled with fuel. An extinguisher is always in the car.
I'll bet he's referring also to the rubber hose from the bottom of the fuel tank to the steel fuel line. A failure here puts the entire contents of the fuel tank on the floor.

Bob

rcrall
03-02-2019, 08:37 AM
[QUOTE=PackardV8;1147520]
Yes, agree,
the Avanti with which PaxtonGranatelli ran 170 MPH at Bonneville was actually a California hot rod 299" with ported stock heads; nothing in it was production R3.



Jack,
I think that that pretty well describes the "A" version of the R3. Many, perhaps most of the Avanti's that were held out by Studebaker as being R3's, the early and perhaps later Bonneville cars, the Hot Rod Magazine and other magazine's R3 road test car(s), were highly modified R2's. Basically California hot rod 299" engines, 276 or 288 cam, ported polished heads, modified valve trains, carburetor enclosure, increased crankcase venting, some had larger oil pans, different exhaust manifolds...

rcrall
03-02-2019, 08:40 AM
Another excellent venue will be at the annual Muscle Car & Corvette Nationals show in Rosemont, (IL) in November.

Craig
I was invited to attend last year but was unable to make it. Fell earlier in the year detaching all 3 muscles from my rotator cuff. Righ arm was pretty useless for many months after surgery.

sgriggs
03-02-2019, 07:23 PM
The engine makes 630 HP with 6#'s boost.

Is this a typo? I seem to remember reading that the engine in Ron Hall's Bonneville car made in the neighborhood of 630 horsepower, but I would've thought that was on more than 6 pounds of boost.

bezhawk
03-03-2019, 10:59 AM
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The fuel pressure gauge is connected with a rubber hose filled with fuel. An extinguisher is always in the car.
The R3 I restored also had an interior console mounted fuel pressure gauge. It was plumbed directly off the fuel pump. I got rid of that nonsense, and put a fuel pressure isolator , hidden inside the pressure box. Then I filled the line to the gauge from the isolator with silicon brake fluid. No more fuel inside the cabin!
An isolator is basically a sealed diaphragm. Pressure from the source presses on the diaphragm, and it presses on the supply fluid to the gauge. (something other than fuel)!
79219

PackardV8
03-03-2019, 11:46 AM
Is this a typo? I seem to remember reading that the engine in Ron Hall's Bonneville car made in the neighborhood of 630 horsepower, but I would've thought that was on more than 6 pounds of boost.

A bit off topic and a bit esoteric for this thread, but manifold pressure is a measure of work done which did not produce horsepower. The engine which has the better flowing intake, heads and camshaft will ingest more air at the same boost level. Take three engines, a stock R2, stock R3 and a full race engine with ported heads and intake. Six pounds of boost might show on each gauge, but the R2 might make 289hp, the R3 335hp and the full race engine 630hp.

BTW, it's a testament to the skill and talent of Ron Hall, Jim Pepper, Corbin Walters, et al, that they were able to make horsepower beyond the theoretical performance envelope of the Paxton SN60 design and hold 6# of boost at Bonneville's altitude.

jack vines

sgriggs
03-11-2019, 11:58 AM
Jack,

Thank you for explaining that. Makes perfect sense.

jpepper
03-12-2019, 08:00 PM
Is this a typo? I seem to remember reading that the engine in Ron Hall's Bonneville car made in the neighborhood of 630 horsepower, but I would've thought that was on more than 6 pounds of boost.

Remember, pressure is a function of restriction. If the heads flow real well you move more air and pressure actually drops. The reason our power was restricted at Bonneville was a lean condition. We were blowing through a 850 Holley carburetor. On the dyno we measured 1200 CFM at 7000 RPM and we passed enough fuel. On the salt, we were lean so we were feeding the engine with well over 1200 CFM. The internal passages of the carburetor could not pass any more fuel. We were using a stock R2 blower drive ratio for the record runs. We had many other ratio options that we could not use.