Exhaust gas question about Avanti?

[edpjr]

My '63 S/C R1 has been in the shop for several weeks having the gas tank refurbed, carb rebuilt, etc. My mechanic wanted me to put in some fresh 100 octane gas and drive it around today, before bringing it back to finish up other work next week. Sure enough, for the 1st time ever it seems to crank cold or warm and IT WILL actually idle without the engine eventually dying. However, I was disappointed when I ran it up to 60-70 mph and kicked in the 4V. It was almost like the engine was missing under full throttle. Then tonite when it was very cold and I cranked it up, I noticed the usual exhaust gases coming from the driver's side tailpipe, but none from the passenger's side. I put my hand over the left pipe and it was exuding hot exhaust gases with substantial pressure, but the right side was barely putting out any exhaust. I could almost hold my hand over it. So, I'm thinking the passenger side muffler is nearly stopped up. I know from past experience that condition affects performance big-time. Does it make sense I've got a bad muffler or what else should I be looking at? [?] Thanks!

edp/NC
'63 Avanti
'66 Commander

[bob1944]

heat rise in the exhaust manifold probably hasn't opened yet. warm the engine to operating temp and see if you have full flow on both exhaust pipes.

[Bud]

If you don't feel exhaust pressure out of the right pipe after about ten minutes of driving the car, check for a stuck heat riser valve between the right exhaust manifold and head pipe. If that is operating, check for a plugged exhaust pipe. My Avanti had its left glasspack muffler disintegrate that plugged the pipe which caused the loss of power that you described. Bud

[bige]

Correct, normal at idle to see one side have more exhaust flow than the other but if it is stuck closed it could effect power. It's usually not a sudden drop or miss but a slow fade with the engine straining but not dying out, though.

My first inclination is to suggest a fuel delivery or fuel pressure problem.

Does it happen in first gear as you hit 4-5,000 RPM or only at higher speeds? If it doesn't I would lean more toward fuel than ignition.

Some things that could also cause your symptoms:

Is the hose to the fuel pump from the supercharger hooked up and tight?

Is timing advancing too much at high rpm. Not vacuum advance but centrifugal advance.

Blower belts slipping. Hard to check. Make sure there is a 'matched set' of belts and that they are the proper width. They shouldn't sit way down below the edge of the pulley but almost flush with it. Like this>>>>>



Choke plate closing under boost or secondary throttle plates sticking closed. These two items are the least likely but they can happen. In fact they will flap open and closed sometimes but definitely a longshot.

ErnieR

quote:Originally posted by bob1944

heat rise in the exhaust manifold probably hasn't opened yet. warm the engine to operating temp and see if you have full flow on both exhaust pipes.

R2 R5388 @ Macungie 2006________________ 1988 "Beater" Avanti

[JDP]

quote:Originally posted by edpjr

My '63 S/C R1 has been in the shop for several weeks having the gas tank refurbed, carb rebuilt, etc. My mechanic wanted me to put in some fresh 100 octane gas and drive it around today, before bringing it back to finish up other work next week. Sure enough, for the 1st time ever it seems to crank cold or warm and IT WILL actually idle without the engine eventually dying. However, I was disappointed when I ran it up to 60-70 mph and kicked in the 4V. It was almost like the engine was missing under full throttle. Then tonite when it was very cold and I cranked it up, I noticed the usual exhaust gases coming from the driver's side tailpipe, but none from the passenger's side. I put my hand over the left pipe and it was exuding hot exhaust gases with substantial pressure, but the right side was barely putting out any exhaust. I could almost hold my hand over it. So, I'm thinking the passenger side muffler is nearly stopped up. I know from past experience that condition affects performance big-time. Does it make sense I've got a bad muffler or what else should I be looking at? [?] Thanks!

edp/NC
'63 Avanti
'66 Commander

I've had more than one R2 that had weak fuel delivery that could not overcome the blower boost. Even with a good factory pump, I've had to add a electric at the rear. Studebaker even listed a electric pump kit for early supercharged cars to fix the problem.

JDP/Maryland

[HNCadet]

JDP,

What was the Studebaker documentation to that statement? Was it in a Service Bulletin? Any idea what type of pump and electrical on/off switching? That's actually quite an interesting option, if a factory recommendation.

[edpjr]

My thanks to everyone for the suggestions.[^] I let the car warm up and idle for more than 15 mins this morning and that didn't make any difference. I advised my mechanic of the potential problems addressed in the forum so he can investigate them, including a stuck heat riser. He mentioned that while it was on the lift they observed it had two different type and size mufflers. I told him to go ahead and replace them with two new low restrictive type that match. I have no qualms with installing an electric fuel pump if need be. It is a pleasure no longer having crap from inside the gas tank clogging the fuel lines and filter. But, the car must be getting fuel flow somewhere as it is gulping 100 octane gas like you wouldn't believe. [xx(] And, no one, including my brother, seems to be able to understand how to correctly set the throttle pressure linkage - even with the shop manual info. Are there ANY Studebaker Avanti and/or R1/R2 engine mechanics in the Hickory, Mooresville, Lincolnton, Boone, NC areas? I heard there's a guy in nearby Morganton, but I can't seem to get a name or phone number. Thanks for the continued help. [8)]

edp/NC
'63 Avanti
'66 Commander

[acolds]

The service bulletin for electric fuel pump for supercharged engines is on the bulletin

http://packardinfo.com/xoops/html/modules/article/view.article.php?186

The number is 339

[N8N]

just curious, have you decided to stick with the 289/R1 heads, or are you planning a future swap to truck/R2 heads?

I bet you will find either a plugged muffler, a stuck heat riser, or both (heat riser would be my first suspect. One from an early 60's Caddy will work I believe if yours is hosed.)

Don Simmons (Silvertone Exhaust) in Canada makes some real nice exact repro pipes and mufflers in stainless, if you're becoming attached to the car. He sells the "exhaust cannon" tips too if you need 'em. If the rest of your exhaust is in good shape, a regular old Thrush or Cherry Bomb glasspack is probably pretty darn close to the original mufflers, just order the right pipe size/length (unless you have the "quiet tone" exhaust with the crossover pipe...)

nate

(I almost typed "Dan Simmons," having just come from the library...)

--
55 Commander Starlight

http://members.cox.net/njnagel

[edpjr]

I have spent a ton of $$$ so far and am still working on the mechanical and body aspects, and have yet to address interior issues. So I suppose for now, at least, the R1/SC combo will stay. Before the latest exhaust issue, the car was running very powerful except when trash from the gas tank clogged the fuel filter and carb. Thank Heavens that corroded tank issue is finally resolved. I'm building a nice looking reliable Studebaker Avanti as a Sunday driver. But I have no illusions that I could ever recoup what I originally paid for it, let alone the $8-10K I've subsequently invested in paint and repairs. I've put less than 400 miles on this vehicle since I bought it 8 months ago. [^]

quote:Originally posted by N8N

just curious, have you decided to stick with the 289/R1 heads, or are you planning a future swap to truck/R2 heads?

I bet you will find either a plugged muffler, a stuck heat riser, or both (heat riser would be my first suspect. One from an early 60's Caddy will work I believe if yours is hosed.)

Don Simmons (Silvertone Exhaust) in Canada makes some real nice exact repro pipes and mufflers in stainless, if you're becoming attached to the car. He sells the "exhaust cannon" tips too if you need 'em. If the rest of your exhaust is in good shape, a regular old Thrush or Cherry Bomb glasspack is probably pretty darn close to the original mufflers, just order the right pipe size/length (unless you have the "quiet tone" exhaust with the crossover pipe...)

nate

(I almost typed "Dan Simmons," having just come from the library...)

--
55 Commander Starlight

http://members.cox.net/njnagel

edp/NC
'63 Avanti
'66 Commander

[maxpower1954]

It's very easy to check out the heat riser function yourself. It's located between the exhaust manifold and exhaust pipe flange. With the engine
cold, reach down under the exact center of the stainless shielding. The valve has a large counterweight, grab that and you should be about to turn the heat riser by hand to the open position (clock-wise.) Very likely this is the problem.

What's the issue with the throttle shift linkage? Were you having a problem with the upshifts? Russ Farris

1963 GT Hawk R-2 4-speed
1964 Avanti R-1 Auto

[JeffDeWitt]

Edwin, have you talked to Ray Fichthorn? He probably knows as much about these beasts as anyone in NC.

Jeff DeWitt

http://carolinastudes.net

[edpjr]

I don't know the gentlemen. Which area is he located? Does he have a garage or how can I get in touch with him? Thanks!

quote:Originally posted by JeffDeWitt

Edwin, have you talked to Ray Fichthorn? He probably knows as much about these beasts as anyone in NC.

Jeff DeWitt

http://carolinastudes.net

edp/NC
'63 Avanti
'66 Commander

[edpjr]

Thanks for the info. I asked my mechanic to check out the heat riser first thing Monday. Although, I think I need matching replacement mufflers anyway. Regarding the throttle shift linkage. Everything was disconnected to get the intake cooked out and have the carb rebuilt. Now that it's back together, if you floor it at 55-60 mph, it shifts so hard it jolts the whole car.

quote:Originally posted by maxpower1954

It's very easy to check out the heat riser function yourself. It's located between the exhaust manifold and exhaust pipe flange. With the engine
cold, reach down under the exact center of the stainless shielding. The valve has a large counterweight, grab that and you should be about to turn the heat riser by hand to the open position (clock-wise.) Very likely this is the problem.

What's the issue with the throttle shift linkage? Were you having a problem with the upshifts? Russ Farris

1963 GT Hawk R-2 4-speed
1964 Avanti R-1 Auto

edp/NC
'63 Avanti
'66 Commander

[JeffDeWitt]

Edwin, He's just outside of Winston-Salem and quite active in the NCSDC, here is a link to his website, it has his contact information.

http://www.raylinrestoration.com/

Jeff DeWitt

http://carolinastudes.net