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JDP
11-08-2009, 09:09 PM
If this car is legit, someone should document it for the SDC judges.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem2303c65754QQitemZ150387185492

JDP/Maryland

Gunslinger
11-08-2009, 09:20 PM
It actually looks too good to be true. If it's everything the seller says, why no underhood pics? Do they not know how to prove what they're claiming. Hopefully...it's a straight and everything they say. It just looks too good in the photos...in fact they look like scanned photos. There's what looks like a late '80s or early '90 Ford Taurus in the background, so I wonder how recent the photos are.




Poet...Mystic...Soldier of Fortune. As always...self-absorbed, adversarial, cocky and in general a malcontent.

dean pearson
11-08-2009, 09:24 PM
Simply put...WOW!

Dean.

showbizkid
11-08-2009, 09:29 PM
Slinger - I fully agree. The photos look a little too nice - like they were professionally done. (Maybe they were). Definitely one I'd insist on seeing in person first...


[img=left]http://members.cox.net/clarknovak/lark.gif[/img=left]

Clark in San Diego
'63 F2/Lark Standard
http://studeblogger.blogspot.com
www.studebakersandiego.com

maxpower1954
11-08-2009, 09:31 PM
Gunslinger is right, the hood is up so why didn't they take any pictures of the engine room? But the mileage is certainly possible. I have closely examined two '64 Avantis with under 5,000 documented miles and a '63 with 18,000.

That's certainly a beautiful early '63 GT, although it does appear the paint has been "massaged" for lack of a better word; almost like a clear coat. Russ Farris

bige
11-08-2009, 09:33 PM
Would an original car have a door striker painted body color with paint coming off at the contact point?

I don't know the answer but that's rarely a painted piece from the factory.


http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/AvantiR2/BehnZ8wB2kKGrHqUH-DMErjg4zkyBK9sJpT.jpg


http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/AvantiR2/track.jpg
Best so far 15.065 @ 91.84 MPH Island Dragway Great Meadows NJ Summer 2009.

Chris_Dresbach
11-08-2009, 09:37 PM
Its got an SDC sticker in the window, maybe find the seller and get the facts? Just an idea.

Chris Dresbach

Gunslinger
11-08-2009, 09:44 PM
In the photo with the door open and the seat folded down, you can see an annual state inspection or registration sticker on the windshield in front of the rear view mirror. That sticker is not visible in any exterior photos. The pics weren't taken at the same time. That doesn't necessarily mean the car isn't what the description said it is...just raises questions in my mind. Some of the photos look like a professional detailing was done, but still...why no engine bay or chassis pics? For the money they're hoping to bring, that's a big oversight.

If in fact the car is as advertised, it's a fabulous find for someone. Let's hope it is.




Poet...Mystic...Soldier of Fortune. As always...self-absorbed, adversarial, cocky and in general a malcontent.

JDP
11-08-2009, 09:53 PM
It's either legit or restored years ago with NOS everything and place in the museum. I find nothing that would indicate otherwise. I could have missed something, and I agree the under hood pictures might tell the tale. Here's one I restored, and it's not as nice. BTW, ignore my incorrect parking lenses, I fixed that later. I did think the front bumper guards were standard and not a option though.

http://www.stude.com/HR/

JDP/Maryland

maxpower1954
11-08-2009, 09:58 PM
I sent the seller a request to post pictures of the engine compartment. Russ Farris

bige
11-08-2009, 10:01 PM
The link kicked on my virus software be careful.

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/AvantiR2/track.jpg
Best so far 15.065 @ 91.84 MPH Island Dragway Great Meadows NJ Summer 2009.

maxpower1954
11-08-2009, 10:02 PM
Yes John, I remember that R-2 GT from Charlotte. I took many pictures of it under the hood to aid in the restoration of mine. Russ Farris

silverhawk
11-08-2009, 10:16 PM
If it is true, all I can say is WOW!

Dylan Wills
http://i483.photobucket.com/albums/rr200/1961lark/My%201961%20studebaker%20lark/Watcomcountyminimeet09andJamesBells.jpg
'61 lark deluxe 4 door wagon

barnlark
11-08-2009, 10:20 PM
Very pretty car. If it has been restored, the auction description is very deceptive: They make no bones about its true originality. Appears to have some paint touched up, so it already isn't 100% true, but that interior is incredible. A decent camera was used, so I wouldn't blame a quality image on it looking too good. The lack of any engine bay shots spells red flag to me, too. The seller appears too deliberate, so it's not like they are an innocent rookie. What's the price guess, folks? No reserve?

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh48/newshooter44/DSCN1253_2.jpg

JDP
11-08-2009, 10:29 PM
quote:Originally posted by maxpower1954

Yes John, I remember that R-2 GT from Charlotte. I took many pictures of it under the hood to aid in the restoration of mine. Russ Farris


Yep, that was the nicest one I did until Sid. It was one the many second place GT's until we got new judges that broke the many year cycle of no first place GT's.

JDP/Maryland

JDP
11-08-2009, 10:30 PM
quote:Originally posted by David

Seem there is no reserve. Interesting. Was there originally a welt between the side grille and the front fender on '63 GTs?

Dave in IN
1964 GT Hawk


Nope, that was 64 only.

JDP/Maryland

satdoc2
11-08-2009, 10:46 PM
Would this car be worth $32K?
Allen

JDP
11-08-2009, 10:54 PM
quote:Originally posted by satdoc2

Would this car be worth $32K?
Allen


Value is relative. If it's as described, certainly. My restored 64 was a R2 and I thought cheaply sold at 35K, but if this is a real survivor, it might be worth more to someone. Sadly, if you drove it much, it would turn into a 20K car. Even Sid is stored and seldom driven. You can't drive a 390 pony plus car and keep it at that level.

JDP/Maryland

candbstudebakers
11-09-2009, 12:11 AM
Strange color combination, I will keep my 64 and would not trade it straight up for that 63...Bob

http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv271/canbstudebakers/1964%20super%20hawk/IM001473.jpg

Maybe I would trade the dude behind it, maybe to barn lark..

Bob Peterson / C & B Studebakers

Castro Valley, CA
canbstudebakers-
http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv271/canbstudebakers/CedarRapids210.jpg

Milaca
11-09-2009, 12:30 AM
I think the red interior looks good with the gold exterior, but the white seat inserts don't look right with a gold exterior (just my opinion of course). Perhaps all red interior or black inserts would look more appropriate, although I've never seen black inserts with a red interior. Irregardless, it would be beneficial to have lots of clear color photos of an all original Studebaker like this for authenticity comparisons. It would be of great help to those restoring such cars and be helpful to those judging such cars at shows.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3473/3939471781_afa477b3ae_t.jpg
Brent's rootbeer racer.
MN iron ore...it does your body good.

avantilover
11-09-2009, 12:55 AM
Interesting that he's been on eBay since 1998 and yet has exactly Zero feedback - no positive/negative or neutral.

John Clements
Avantilover, your South Australian Studebaker lover!!!
Lockleys South Australia

Milaca
11-09-2009, 01:15 AM
Ebay evidently revised their feedback rating system. He has positive feedback, but hasn't purchased anything since February of 2008 and hasnt sold anything since 2005. Does Ebay wipe the slate clean after a year of no purchases or sales?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3473/3939471781_afa477b3ae_t.jpg
Brent's rootbeer racer.
MN iron ore...it does your body good.

Rerun
11-09-2009, 04:12 AM
Any Forum members near Warrenville, IL?

Jim Bradley
Lewistown PA
'78 Avanti II
http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd35/bradley71771/DSCF4815E1.jpg

barnlark
11-09-2009, 07:17 AM
Originally posted by candbstudebakers
http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv271/canbstudebakers/1964%20super%20hawk/IM001473.jpg
Maybe I would trade the dude behind it, maybe to barn lark..

No way! That kid would cost me more money than my daughters this year just in food and I'd come home every day and my convertible would be gone. Looks to me like he has his hands on what he thinks is his GT Hawk, so that may not be yours to trade either! :D [:o)]


http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh48/newshooter44/DSCN1253_2.jpg

Guido
11-09-2009, 07:27 AM
I find the response to this question far fetched:

Q: Nice pristine car, I can't work out how long it would last being stored for so many years, this averages 188 miles a year, how are the oil seals etc. What about the original tires, this car would need a part restoration, even though it is a pristine original, would you not agree, moonglo39

A: No she has been well cared for as a Museum piece, started regularly and the oil changed several times a year

If it was in a museum and not being driven and only started periodically, why would the oil need to be changed "several times a year"? In that type of setting there would be little contamination getting into the engine. Was he also changing the air filter at the same time? My everyday driver may not have oil changes as frequently as this car.




http://thumb14.webshots.net/t/63/663/9/36/86/2567936860097493054TXiheL_th.jpgGuido Salvage - "Where rust is beautiful" and real Studebaker horsepower lives

See pictures here: http://community.webshots.com/user/GuidoSalvage

Hiding and preserving Studebakers in Richmond, Goochland & Louisa, Va.

barnlark
11-09-2009, 07:47 AM
I'd say the person answering that is less than truthful. Sorry, farfetched is too nice. It looks like a very, very nice car, but even without seeing it in person this seller appears to be hoping no one will call him on any of his descriptions. How do you prove he didn't change the oil every hour of idle use, though? But, puuulease.
I wish a GT Hawk restoration veteran like JP could give us an eye witness account... and take a fibber detector along for the trip. ;)

barnlark
11-09-2009, 08:02 AM
I see the last question got a 25K BIN answer. Even without a JT engine, or full package provenance that is an exceptional price. No way to get a GT in that condition for anywhere near that price restoring it. I can't imagine how high that would have gone with a legit, original Avanti powered engine in that condition.

Avantidon
11-09-2009, 08:22 AM
I believe that if what he is saying is true one who is very familiar with these cars and lives near Warrenville, IL which is looks to be southwest of Chiago would be willing to look at the car for one who is interested. I know I would. I find it insteresting as others have said that there are no engine pictures. As to value it is worth what a willing seller is willing to accept from a willing buyer. Recently at the RM Auction in hershey a 64 R-2 Super Hawk that was owned by the Crawford Museum in Cleveland sold for $22K which IMHO was an excellant purchase for the buyer. Preauction estimate by RM was almost $20K above the actual purchase price.

studecruiser
11-09-2009, 08:34 AM
Why is there is no woodgrain on the glove box and radio section of the dash? If it has so little miles and use why is the woodgrain missing?

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o104/studecruiser/StudebakerShine001_001.jpghttp://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o104/studecruiser/Fall%20Hawk/FallHawk001.jpg

fstst56
11-09-2009, 08:57 AM
Isn't there a member from around Chicago named Mark VanDeventer?

Would someone from the Blackhawk Chapter Know?

Isn't he the one with the two-tone blue '56 wagon.

Isn't he from South Africa?

If this is the same person I think he would be very credible.

StudeMichael
11-09-2009, 09:32 AM
There is not supposed to be wood grain around the dash and glove box on this model year. It is correct, The only thing I see disturbing is the paint on the door striker assembly.

JDP
11-09-2009, 09:40 AM
quote:Originally posted by studecruiser

Why is there is no woodgrain on the glove box and radio section of the dash? If it has so little miles and use why is the woodgrain missing?

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o104/studecruiser/StudebakerShine001_001.jpghttp://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o104/studecruiser/Fall%20Hawk/FallHawk001.jpg


That's the way early 63's were built, later cars had the full wood grain.

JDP/Maryland

maxpower1954
11-09-2009, 09:41 AM
Almost correct, StudeMichael - it's an early '63 GT, which had the same overlay as the '62. Later production '63 GTs, like mine, have the wood-grain. Also different are the parking light housings - the plastic lense is flush with the outside on the earlys, and recessed on the later ones. Russ Farris

"All glory is fleeting"
George C. Scott as "Patton"

candbstudebakers
11-09-2009, 10:08 AM
Nothing wrong with placement of the door handle, but funny no rear pictures, would like to see trunk overlay if there is one and the right one, for some one that is selling a car for that price you would think there would be a lot more pictures, Like Dick and JP do with their ad's...Bob

Bob Peterson / C & B Studebakers

Castro Valley, CA
canbstudebakers-
http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv271/canbstudebakers/CedarRapids210.jpg

kurtruk
11-09-2009, 10:38 AM
For what they are claiming, the gas and brake pedal look about right. A little imperfect, dirty, but not pistine reproductions. Proves nothing--just a thought.

KURTRUK
(read it backwards)


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3267/2617723594_889afb71cf_t.jpg http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2412/2267352617_720245049a_m.jpg http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3286/2679715309_9655c80e5e_m.jpg

Nothing is politically right which is morally wrong. -A. Lincoln

Avantidon
11-09-2009, 12:36 PM
Coup;e of interesting points on this Hawk. Owner is an SDC member so should be easy to approach. Mark Van Deventer does live in Naperville, IL so could visit the car. I am sure there are others also.[:I]

JDP
11-09-2009, 12:40 PM
He ended the auction early on the GT.

JDP/Maryland

Roscomacaw
11-09-2009, 12:54 PM
I've only just now looked at this thread. Reading all the replies, I was sorta amazed to see that no one picked up on the seller's name - markvandev.
This has to be Mark Van Deventer, who maintained the UNofficial SDC site before SDC decided to establish a legit site (this one). Mark had several stunning examples of Studebakers including his family's 58 Provincial wagon that had been sold new, in South Africa. I know Mark fell on hard times when the Dot-Com boom went bust, but I don't know what he's been doing since. The name and Ph# at the end of the presentation isn't his. I'd presume, therefor, that he'd listed it for someone else. I would say that I'd trust Mark's assessment of a Stude almost without question. Again tho, there's no guarantee he's seen this car first-hand.[^]

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/30906179/aview/58_Avatar.jpg
1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1963 Cruiser
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President two door

studegary
11-09-2009, 01:20 PM
To respond to two above - I believe that the door strikers should be painted body color. They were installed before the main body was painted. If you remove one, there is no body color under it.

Gary L.
Wappinger, NY

SDC member since 1968
Studebaker enthusiast much longer

jnormanh
11-09-2009, 06:24 PM
quote:Originally posted by JDP

He ended the auction early on the GT.

JDP/Maryland



If he sold it for $25K, someone bought it cheap. Where on earth would you ever find a comparably original car? In spite of some of the nit-picking here, I believe it is as represented.

I've seen two better/more original cars: a 1940 Plymouth which was still 0 miles and parked in a living room in 1990, and a zero mile AH '68 Sprite which was still in a basement in 1996. You couldn't touch either for $25K.

Jealousy is a nasty emotion.

WCP
11-09-2009, 07:25 PM
As Studegary states the door strikers should be painted body color as well as the screw heads. Some of the screw head paint will be lost during subsequent adjustment. Certainly, this was the way with Canadian GT's and I doubt if assembly sequencing would be different in the US.

barnlark
11-09-2009, 08:24 PM
If it sold early, that was a great deal. I would love to hear from someone who has actually seen this car in person... or maybe the new buyer who might be from the Forum! [^]
If the auction was just short of enough thorough pictures and is that legit throughout, that will be an amazing concours car.

JDP
11-09-2009, 08:33 PM
quote:Originally posted by jnormanh


quote:Originally posted by JDP

He ended the auction early on the GT.

JDP/Maryland



If he sold it for $25K, someone bought it cheap. Where on earth would you ever find a comparably original car? In spite of some of the nit-picking here, I believe it is as represented.

I've seen two better/more original cars: a 1940 Plymouth which was still 0 miles and parked in a living room in 1990, and a zero mile AH '68 Sprite which was still in a basement in 1996. You couldn't touch either for $25K.

Jealousy is a nasty emotion.



Than there was the 2300 mile 54 Vette:

http://www.proteam-corvette.com/entombed.html



JDP/Maryland

mbstude
11-09-2009, 08:35 PM
Steve Cade has a '63 Wagonaire with less than 6000 miles on it. It's a clean little car.

Matthew Burnette
Hazlehurst, GA

Samjoe
11-09-2009, 09:49 PM
Why was the windshield wipers not running. The switch is on high and the ignition was on. As well the heater motor.

JDP
11-09-2009, 09:56 PM
quote:Originally posted by Samjoe

Why was the windshield wipers not running. The switch is on high and the ignition was on. As well the heater motor.


The wiper switch is off, air switch is on low blower. I can't hear the blower from a picture.:)

JDP/Maryland

barnlark
11-09-2009, 10:51 PM
That Corvette clip is great, John. I am only fond of the '53 to '55 versions. What a find.
Sure came out better than the underground entombed Mopar. :D

warrlaw1
11-10-2009, 02:52 PM
Be very wary. A scammer will use a previously legit eBay offering and doctor it as their own. It's possible Mark had the car on eBay once and these pirates bookmarked his ad, reinvented it and are hoping for a taker. They will insist on using eBay's check out but produce a check out page that looks legit, but isn't. Either the money gets re-directed to Western Union or they get YOUR pay pal password and pay themselves that way. If it ended early, someone notified eBay and it was pulled.

JDP
11-10-2009, 03:24 PM
quote:Originally posted by warrlaw1

Be very wary. A scammer will use a previously legit eBay offering and doctor it as their own. It's possible Mark had the car on eBay once and these pirates bookmarked his ad, reinvented it and are hoping for a taker. They will insist on using eBay's check out but produce a check out page that looks legit, but isn't. Either the money gets re-directed to Western Union or they get YOUR pay pal password and pay themselves that way. If it ended early, someone notified eBay and it was pulled.


Ebay did not remove it, it's still up but ended. The seller probably reached a off ebay deal.

JDP/Maryland

warrlaw1
11-10-2009, 03:31 PM
JDP, I just clicked on it and it's up for 20 seconds, then disappears, then the same car, 63 GT Hawk with a crunched right rear fender pops up for 5 grand, plus. I believe the latest ad was rewritten from the older 63 GT ad and they doctored it with stock photos. Same ad just different photos. I've traced scammers before on eBay and they know my "cookies" and pull the ad before I get too much time to scrutinize. Have you given up your payment info yet?

JDP
11-10-2009, 04:15 PM
quote:Originally posted by warrlaw1

JDP, I just clicked on it and it's up for 20 seconds, then disappears, then the same car, 63 GT Hawk with a crunched right rear fender pops up for 5 grand, plus. I believe the latest ad was rewritten from the older 63 GT ad and they doctored it with stock photos. Same ad just different photos. I've traced scammers before on eBay and they know my "cookies" and pull the ad before I get too much time to scrutinize. Have you given up your payment info yet?



I was not interested in the car, if I was, I'd call Mark and make sure someone did not high jack his account. BTW, I only get a suggested link to the Gold car, not a automatic one like you do.

JDP/Maryland

Gordy911
11-10-2009, 05:34 PM
Okay I am going to buy it and put an end to the madness will let you know how it goes if not original will part it out.

62 GT Hawk
84 vette
31 Ford Pickup
2005 Maxima
2006 CTSV
Gravely 17hp Pro
Gravely Walker 10HP