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OzarkPetunia
09-06-2009, 06:37 PM
I've just brought home a 6 cyl engine that was removed from a '57 Silver Hawk 15-20 years ago and I'm a bit confused about the whole serial # thing...

I thought the serial # on a production engine was stamped into the block but this one is on a plate that's riveted to the block.

Says "This is engine # 535435.

Can someone enlighten me?

I'm pretty sure I learned on the forum that the engine that was in the Flight Hawk when I bought it is a replacement because there's no stamped serial number, only a tag like this riveted on one but the paint is all worn off.

I think it's a later engine because the paint that's left on it is olive green instead of turquoise.

Help?

Fayetteville, AR
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg60/OzarkPetunia/Avitars/Cornavitar2.jpg

barnlark
09-06-2009, 07:49 PM
Is it possible that the first 5 is really a S ? If so, it's a 1959 170.

41 Frank
09-06-2009, 08:09 PM
Could be an independent rebuilders's serial number.

OzarkPetunia
09-06-2009, 08:21 PM
My bad ~ I put too much info in my post! The engine that WAS in my Flight Hawk has olive green paint left on it so I suspect it's a later rebuilt engine.

The engine I just got from the Silver Hawk with this serial # has turquoise paint on it so I'm HOPING it's the correct 185. (It IS supposed to be a 185, right?!?)

And the number that it starts with is definitely a "5". I'll try to post a pic soon if no one can decode this.

Thanks!

Fayetteville, AR
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg60/OzarkPetunia/Avitars/Cornavitar2.jpg

BobGlasscock
09-06-2009, 08:42 PM
serial numbers stamped into the top, front, left of the block starting with 521001 are 9G 1950 engines. My engine number is 587522, assembled in car November, 1949. This may not apply since you say the number is on a tag. Where is the tag? I'm sort of under the impression that the 169's were painted green. I think I remember someone on the forum saying that a riveted tag meant that the engine was a factory replacement through a dealer for warranty purposes.

The only thing in that paragraph that I am sure about is the identification of the engine per serial number. :)

'50 Champion, 1 family owner
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg316/studebakerbob/SDC%20avatar/Studebakerstuff019.jpghttp://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg316/studebakerbob/SDC%20avatar/Studebakerstuff018.jpg

barnlark
09-06-2009, 09:00 PM
Is there another part number on the block on the lower left side just above the oil pan? Not a casting number, but a 154XXXX-X type number, for example?

OzarkPetunia
09-06-2009, 09:02 PM
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg60/OzarkPetunia/Studebaker/serialno.jpg

Here's the tag on the "new" engine. I'll post the block number in a few minutes after I fuss with downloading it from my camera card.:)

Fayetteville, AR
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg60/OzarkPetunia/Avitars/Cornavitar2.jpg

BobGlasscock
09-06-2009, 09:08 PM
I'm gonna bet that that is a replacement engine from memory of previous posts. Factory engine for a 9G.

'50 Champion, 1 family owner
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg316/studebakerbob/SDC%20avatar/Studebakerstuff019.jpghttp://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg316/studebakerbob/SDC%20avatar/Studebakerstuff018.jpg

OzarkPetunia
09-06-2009, 09:08 PM
And here's the number on the block...

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg60/OzarkPetunia/Studebaker/block.jpg

Fayetteville, AR
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg60/OzarkPetunia/Avitars/Cornavitar2.jpg

StudeRich
09-06-2009, 09:14 PM
quote:Originally posted by OzarkPetunia

Says "This is engine # 535435. Can someone enlighten me?

You have a factory replacement "Stripped Engine" (short block), 535435 is a Studebaker [u]Part Number!</u> $265.25 in 1961 !!!!!!![:0]

The good news is, this is a 1955 thru 1958 Sweepstakes 185 Cu. In. 6 cyl, long stroke, large Main bearing, Champion Engine! [^]

If original, this is NOT a Rebuilt Engine!

StudeRich

OzarkPetunia
09-06-2009, 09:18 PM
Thanks, Rich! I should have just emailed you directly!

Is there some way I can answer the "if original" question? The current owner of the Silver Hawk is the one who removed this engine 15-20 years ago to put in an 8 but he's not the original owner of the car.

Fayetteville, AR
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg60/OzarkPetunia/Avitars/Cornavitar2.jpg

StudeRich
09-06-2009, 09:30 PM
Sure Petunia, you could remove the Cyl. head and check the condition of the cylinders, have a machinist measure them with a bore gauge, or clean the tops and look for a +.030, or +.040 etc. stamped in the head of the piston meaning it has been rebuilt. Really, it does not matter, what matters is the CONDITION, CONDITION, CONDITION! Kinda like Real Estate: Location, Location, Location! :D

It will still be a Champion 185, either way if it has the correct Crankshaft, and it's STROKE can also be measured or it's casting number checked to verify that. [^]

StudeRich

barnlark
09-06-2009, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by StudeRich

Originally posted by OzarkPetunia

Says "This is engine # 535435. Can someone enlighten me?

You have a factory replacement "Stripped Engine" (short block), 535435 is a Studebaker [u]Part Number!</u> $265.25 in 1961 !!!!!!![:0]
The good news is, this is a 1955 thru 1958 Sweepstakes 185 Cu. In. 6 cyl, long stroke, large Main bearing, Champion Engine! [^]
If original, this is NOT a Rebuilt Engine!
StudeRich

Rich, I don't doubt your eye for this stuff, but I have it in my 1960 parts price list too at $266.25. What distinguishes it from the 170 in the 1960 price books? I'm still learning these engine research nuances.
Rose, is there another part number on the block that doesn't have the S in the middle of it? I'm curious as to the other part number since there are ones close in the 1960 book, too.

Dwain G.
09-06-2009, 11:14 PM
Everything was going fine until you posted the photo of the engine block casting number. That is a 1959-60 block and would be expected to be a 170. So now I'm really confused as to just what this engine is.

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff195/DwainG/MrEd.jpg
HEY, you're not Wilbur!

barnlark
09-06-2009, 11:47 PM
Me too. That's why I asked Rich how the '55 to '58 185 got in the equation. Dwain is that an S in the middle of that number, or a bad casting 8? My book shows it as a 1960 170, but that block number with the dash 7 is throwing me off. What does that signify? It's not in the '59-64 part numbers, but that 535435 sure is in the March 1960 price list book. Couldn't you buy those 170 replacement blocks from Newman-Altman right up to about 1990? One could paint them any darn color they wanted, so the color is not a good clue.

StudeRich
09-07-2009, 12:37 AM
Ok guys here is the clue that you are not aware of, I looked up the part number in the '55-'58 Chassis Parts catalog and found just what I posted: '55-'58 Champion stripped Engine.

So since it is without a crank I guess it could become either a 170 or a 185 after completion, but is listed for cars with 185's!
If it has a late 15XXXXX seven digit casting number that block had to be used in 1956 or later NORMALLY or maybe just built in '59 or '60 using the latest block casting! But then again maybe just MAYBE Casting Numbers, Drawing Numbers/Part Numbers were not controlled and matched 100% perfectly! [?] [?] [?]

I can not say which it is, I am just repeating what the usually correct info tells me. [^]

StudeRich

gordr
09-07-2009, 12:43 AM
Well, if the factory was still selling 185 replacement stripped engines in 1960 or '61, would they not use then-current production blocks? AFAIK, there is no difference in the blocks between the 185 and the 170 Lark engine; it's in the crank and pistons. So the tag would indicate that the 1960 block was assembled using 185 internals.

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

StudeRich
09-07-2009, 12:48 AM
quote:Originally posted by barnlark

/Cut/My book shows it as a 1960 170, but that block number with the dash 7 is throwing me off.
How about the seventh son...no, no, no that's a song dummy! It could be the seventh 6 Cyl. block mold!

quote:What does that signify? It's not in the '59-64 part numbers, but that 535435 sure is in the March 1960 price list book.
You gotta remember, this is a CASTING number, it will NOT be in the Part Number Listing! However the tin tag for a replacement "PART" would have a "PART" number on it because it is a complete Assembly, so it goes into the Parts Division inventory, NOT incomplete castings.

StudeRich

StudeRich
09-07-2009, 12:56 AM
quote:Originally posted by gordr

Well, if the factory was still selling 185 replacement stripped engines in 1960 or '61, would they not use then-current production blocks? AFAIK, there is no difference in the blocks between the 185 and the 170 Lark engine; it's in the crank and pistons. So the tag would indicate that the 1960 block was assembled using 185 internals.

There you go! Of course, it would have Pistons with the correct 185 pin locations, so when I said it could become either I was wrong! It's just like a 259/289 situation so it cannot, unless one were to trash a perfectly good set of factory matched to the bore sizes, set of Pistons, Pins and Rings! [:0]

StudeRich

barnlark
09-07-2009, 10:24 AM
It would be great if this is a 185. Probably is. Sounds simple, but is it?
Rich, I guess I don't follow without testing the stroke how this one is for sure either one? It shows up as a replacement block part number, yet not unique to one specific year seemingly. If it shows up in the earlier '55-'58 book for 185 applications, that makes sense. But, if there were only 170s offered and being assembled in '59-'60 and later with that same replacement number, how do we assume it's with the same internals as made in 1955? I realize they were assembled with everything sans cylinder head, but is there a different part number in your books for the replacement 170 engines? My limited price book doesn't distinguish the two separately. Anyone with a different replacement 170 part tag out there?

Can the casting number narrow down the year that it was assembled? Do we know what year they quit assembling 185 replacement engines, or did the practice of building both go on until December 1963, or were the 185s just stock piled by the thousands in the fifties? I realize one could buy all the parts to rebuild a 185 anytime after that, but how does one narrow down the year a replacement block was actually made & its size from that part number? I know Biggs and many others bought at least one of these in the past. Were there extra wire tags with more info on them, anyone?

55 prez
09-07-2009, 12:37 PM
Congratulations Rose and Fred for getting the engine. It appears that it is a 185 cid and will give you a little more power than a 170.

Jim Caldwell
"The view don't change if you ain't the lead dog"

Dwain G.
09-07-2009, 01:11 PM
Here's what I do know (I think) and what I don't know.
The casting number shown above is 1548965. The number after the dash identifies a run of castings. Maybe so they could go back and look at all the castings with the same suffix for whatever reason?
The date code for this block will be found just above the distributor. It should consist of some numbers followed by the letter M, N, or O.
The only casting number used for 185 engines that I was aware of until now is 533870. The engine in question may change that, I don't know.
Besides the 535435 replacement engine shown in the 1955-58 parts book, there was a 536332 engine. It was also a 185, but was assembled with the cam timing one tooth retarded. This engine was meant for earlier Champion models with a tiny clutch. It was felt the enormous power of the 185 would overwelm the small clutches (yes, really!)
The part numbers for 'stripped' engines in the 1959-64 parts book is 1548990 and 1548993. These are both presumably 170s.
Have we discovered that Stude built some 185s using the 1959-60 block? It would have been easy to do so.

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff195/DwainG/MrEd.jpg
HEY, you're not Wilbur!

StudeRich
09-07-2009, 04:03 PM
quote:Originally posted by Dwain G.

Have we discovered that Stude built some 185s using the 1959-60 block? It would have been easy to do so.

Yes Dwain; we have! The 170c.i. Engine casting Number in combination with the clearly 185c.i. stripped replacement engine assembly for only '55-'58 models, proves that. [:0]

Remember a stripped engine does not include crank, rods, oil pan etc. but it does have the 185 piston assemblies cosmolined in the block.

Remember also that in the day, it was against the law for any Auto Garage or Car dealer to modify the original factory size or H.P. when replacing a customer's engine. Sure there would be some violations, but NEVER by the Factory, verifiable by their own Parts catalogs! [:0]

StudeRich

Dwain G.
09-07-2009, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by Dwain G......
Have we discovered that Stude built some 185s using the 1959-60 block? It would have been easy to do so.
______________________________
Evidence sure points that way, but I'm not totally convinced yet.
And in the Stude parts books, a 'stripped engine' is defined as consisting of block, pistons, rings, connecting rods, crankshaft, camshaft, all bearings, timing gears and cover, oil pressure valve, oil pan filler block, engine valves, valve springs, valve covers, oil pump, and front support plate.
A 'block assembly' is a block with fitted pistons, pins, and rings only.


http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff195/DwainG/MrEd.jpg
HEY, you're not Wilbur!

OzarkPetunia
09-08-2009, 07:15 AM
Wow ~ leave it to me to open a can of worms!

We'll power wash the engine and take off the head by Saturday. I'm interested to see if there's a date code. With my luck it'll pre-date the 185 engine and NONE of it will make any sense. :D

Thanks to all for the details!!!

(And thanks again, Jim, for helping us find this engine & trans and for your encouragement!!! We had a nice visit with Ed and his wife on Sunday afternoon and promised to drive the Super Coop out there when she's back on the road again.)

Fayetteville, AR
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg60/OzarkPetunia/Avitars/Cornavitar2.jpg

BobGlasscock
09-08-2009, 07:48 AM
This thread has certainly become one of the most interesting threads I have read on here. Maybe, THE most interesting. I would love to be able to remember every detail posted, but I can't. Wow, how does all this knowledge find a home in such a few folks. whew.

'50 Champion, 1 family owner
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg316/studebakerbob/SDC%20avatar/Studebakerstuff019.jpghttp://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg316/studebakerbob/SDC%20avatar/Studebakerstuff018.jpg