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JDP
05-24-2009, 10:50 AM
I've noticed Avanti's values are heading up for no particular reason on ebay lately, going well over reserve. This is a nice car, but the seats are not stock and yet it's going way over the reserve.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Studebaker_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ65Q3a3Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318QQ_trksidZp45 06Q2ec0Q2em245QQhashZitem3351dd86a7QQitemZ220416804519QQptZUSQ5fCarsQ5fTrucksQQs alenotsupported

JDP/Maryland

mbstude
05-24-2009, 10:56 AM
With a blower, AM/FM radio, and tilt steering column, who has time to look at the seats? :D

Matthew Burnette
Hazlehurst, GA

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk179/1959S2D/tiny.jpg

StudeRich
05-24-2009, 12:49 PM
That looks like a great car and a rare '64, the AM & FM and Tilt is rarer still and R5409 is quite late. The seats look close to correctly re-done the only thing that jumps out at me is the pleats are a bit overstuffed.

It appears to have an after market MSD type Electronic Ignition system, it does not look like the Studebaker Prestolite Unit that was Standard on R3 and optional on R Series, if not all V-8's, I call that an improvement. [^]

Time will tell if it's in Great enough demand to sell for $28,000.00 or more though. :)

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa221/studerich/My64Daytona.jpg
StudeRich at Studebakers Northwest -Ferndale,WA

okc63avanti
05-24-2009, 05:50 PM
JP,

By seats not being stock, I guess you mean the vinyl coverings as they don't look stock to me but are nicely done. It appears to me the head liner looks different that stock unless a late model was done this way. I think a clean R2 with tilt and AM/FM (rare/late model) may be the reason or maybe someone just really wants it.

JP, you sell a lot of cars, here's a question on Avanti values for you if you please. If someone nicely restores an Avanti but modifies it with supercharger & AC, safe high back seats and shoulder belts, 4 wheel disc brakes, electronic ignition, and Tremec 5 speed does that Avanti because of safety and performance improvements bring more value than one that is just restored to its original condition?

I apologize if I open a can of worms here but I am curious.

<div align="left">John</div id="left">

<div align="left">'63 Avanti, R1, Auto, AC, PW (unrestored)</div id="left">
http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq16/okc63avanti/63StudebakerAvanti-1.jpg

okc63avanti
05-24-2009, 05:50 PM
JP,

By seats not being stock, I guess you mean the vinyl coverings as they don't look stock to me but are nicely done. It appears to me the head liner looks different that stock unless a late model was done this way. I think a clean R2 with tilt and AM/FM (rare/late model) may be the reason or maybe someone just really wants it.

JP, you sell a lot of cars, here's a question on Avanti values for you if you please. If someone nicely restores an Avanti but modifies it with supercharger & AC, safe high back seats and shoulder belts, 4 wheel disc brakes, electronic ignition, and Tremec 5 speed does that Avanti because of safety and performance improvements bring more value than one that is just restored to its original condition?

I apologize if I open a can of worms here but I am curious.

<div align="left">John</div id="left">

<div align="left">'63 Avanti, R1, Auto, AC, PW (unrestored)</div id="left">
http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq16/okc63avanti/63StudebakerAvanti-1.jpg

wcarroll@outrageous.net
05-24-2009, 06:07 PM
okc63avanti-

My $.02 is that an Avanti with the mods you listed would definitely be a marketable car.

Would I take an original R2, modify it and expect it to bring stock value -no.

Would a modified R1 bring stock value -yes, I believe so.

I've been paying attention to modified Avanti sales over the last few years because I'm doing quite a bit of modification to my '63.

In the end, all you need is one buyer. Just keep the mods tasteful and you'll be fine ;)


http://community.webshots.com/user/s2dbaker?vhost=community

JDP
05-24-2009, 07:08 PM
quote:Originally posted by JDP


quote:Originally posted by okc63avanti

JP,

By seats not being stock, I guess you mean the vinyl coverings as they don't look stock to me but are nicely done. It appears to me the head liner looks different that stock unless a late model was done this way. I think a clean R2 with tilt and AM/FM (rare/late model) may be the reason or maybe someone just really wants it.

JP, you sell a lot of cars, here's a question on Avanti values for you if you please. If someone nicely restores an Avanti but modifies it with supercharger & AC, safe high back seats and shoulder belts, 4 wheel disc brakes, electronic ignition, and Tremec 5 speed does that Avanti because of safety and performance improvements bring more value than one that is just restored to its original condition?

I apologize if I open a can of worms here but I am curious.

<div align="left">John</div id="left">

<div align="left">'63 Avanti, R1, Auto, AC, PW (unrestored)</div id="left">
http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq16/okc63avanti/63StudebakerAvanti-1.jpg



Nope, it will hurt badly. If you want those items, buy a Avanti II.

JDP/Maryland



JDP/Maryland

herbpcpa
05-24-2009, 07:29 PM
And if this Avanti R2 was a four speed it would sell for more, less or the same?

studegary
05-24-2009, 07:32 PM
Once it is modified to that extent, you just have to find the one buyer that likes the same combination, wants to buy it, has the money, etc., all at the same time.

Gary L.
Wappinger, NY

SDC member since 1968
Studebaker enthusiast much longer

JDP
05-24-2009, 07:57 PM
quote:Originally posted by herbpcpa

And if this Avanti R2 was a four speed it would sell for more, less or the same?


4 speeds bring a premium over the Powershift.

JDP/Maryland

wcarroll@outrageous.net
05-24-2009, 08:22 PM
Hmmm... AFAIK, Avanti II's didn't come with superchargers and 5-speeds.

I don't think anyone would have a hard time selling a '63/'64 Avanti with those mods. Superchargers, air conditioning, 4-wheel discs and overdrive are definitely A-okay in my book!!

Lots of people these days want classic style coupled with modern conveniences, safety, and reliability.

And these people typically have more and are willing to spend more for just such a car.

Granted a perfectly restored stock R1 Avanti would bring good money, but it's nothing like the kind of money some "modernized" cars bring when done properly.

Just my opinion.






http://community.webshots.com/user/s2dbaker?vhost=community

Dick Steinkamp
05-24-2009, 08:35 PM
quote:Originally posted by wcarroll@outrageous.net

Hmmm... AFAIK, Avanti II's didn't come with superchargers and 5-speeds.

I don't think anyone would have a hard time selling a '63/'64 Avanti with those mods. Superchargers, air conditioning, 4-wheel discs and overdrive are definitely A-okay in my book!!

Lots of people these days want classic style coupled with modern conveniences, safety, and reliability.

And these people typically have more and are willing to spend more for just such a car.

Granted a perfectly restored stock R1 Avanti would bring good money, but it's nothing like the kind of money some "modernized" cars bring when done properly.

Just my opinion.




I would agree with Will. Tastefully modified Studebakers generally sell for more than pure stock ones. I sell VERY few Studebakers to long time Studebaker purists (even pure stock Studebakers). Far more to folks with an interest in ALL cars. In addition, the hot rod/custom crowd is FAR bigger than the Studebaker crowd.

IMHO, the mods outlined by OKC63Avanti would add to the number of potential buyers and add to the value of the car.

The exception would be the high back seats. Again, MHO, they would look out of place in the car and turn off both purists and non purists. Same with things like cutting up the dash to put in a modern stereo (if you have to have one, hide it), big wheels and rubber band tires, etc.

Quite frankly, even a well done SBC engine transplant (especially an LSx) would ADD to the number of potential buyers. Right or wrong, many are afraid of the 50 year old Studebaker engine.

Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA

http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww63/dstnkmp/pics075-1-1.jpg

fstst56
05-24-2009, 08:37 PM
I have to agree with JDP,
if you want modifications, go with an Avanti II

Gunslinger
05-24-2009, 09:20 PM
quote:Originally posted by fstst56

I have to agree with JDP,
if you want modifications, go with an Avanti II


I agree...when I decided to jump back into the Avanti market after selling my R1 years ago, I went with an Avanti II just for that reason. Since all Avanti II's were more or less custom ordered and built cars, I could change anything and it really wouldn't affect the value too much, as long as it was done in good taste. More modern conveniences...CD player built in, newer engine, fuel injection, colors, carpets, etc., all were done to to suit me, not some point system for originality.

If I had bought another Stude, I know myself well enough to know I would have wanted it as original as possible and just didn't want to go that way this time.




Poet...Mystic...Soldier of Fortune. As always...self-absorbed, adversarial, cocky and in general a malcontent.

JDP
05-24-2009, 09:21 PM
My experience has been that modifications not easily undone have hurt the values on my Studebaker Avanti sales. With a Avanti II's it's not a problem. For example I sold a Avanti II with AC and a added supercharger for well over market.

JDP/Maryland

studegary
05-24-2009, 09:52 PM
It is likely that John and I have actually sold more Avantis than some that are commenting.

There is a 1987 Avanti in Turning Wheels that you can buy for $5K and then build it to suit. I am considering it myself.

Gary L.
Wappinger, NY

SDC member since 1968
Studebaker enthusiast much longer

okc63avanti
05-24-2009, 10:05 PM
Seeing a R2 automatic going for $28K is a good sign. At the end of the day if I invest $10K more than the car is worth than so be it. I want something that I like to think of as being re-engineered for performance, safety, and driveability anywhere in the country and at any time I want to make a trip. My Avanti R1 needed restoring so I decided to make the mods outlined and they are being done by one of the best Stude and Avanti mechanics around. I don't ever intend to sale it and I plan on driving it. All mods will be reversible (with money and time) if someone would ever want to put it back to original but my guess is that wouldn't be likely. It seems to me so many in club are choosing to tastefully modify their Studes with original Stude power. My plan is to attend as many car shows as possible SDC and non-Studebaker as well. I would like to see more and more people become interested in Studebaker cars, I have already won over my young son-in-law and his best friend with my car and that was even with it non-operable and before I sent it out for its rebirth.

<div align="left">John</div id="left">

<div align="left">'63 Avanti, R1, Auto, AC, PW (unrestored)</div id="left">
http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq16/okc63avanti/63StudebakerAvanti-1.jpg

studegary
05-24-2009, 10:13 PM
I have no problem with the your car and your money approach, especially if you plan on keeping it for awhile. I, and others, were just giving our opinions and experiences relative to your inital question.

Gary L.
Wappinger, NY

SDC member since 1968
Studebaker enthusiast much longer

Dick Steinkamp
05-24-2009, 10:46 PM
Here's Malcom Berry's Avanti. My idea of a tastefully modified Avanti. Exceptional workmanship. Modified, blown Stude V8, 5 speed. VERY fast and handles like it is on rails.

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s66/ddstnkmp/south%20bend/IMG_2051.jpg

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s66/ddstnkmp/south%20bend/IMG_2050.jpg

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s66/ddstnkmp/south%20bend/a37f.jpg

Many, many, subtle but tasteful mods to this car that enhance the performance and appearance.

IMHO, it would sell for far more than a stocker.




Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA

http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww63/dstnkmp/pics075-1-1.jpg

wcarroll@outrageous.net
05-24-2009, 11:22 PM
Now that's what I'm talkin' bout Dick!!!

That is one beautifully executed car [:p]

The key word is "tasteful" and in order to bring top dollar, a car would most certainly have to be completely turn key and well sorted out.

I'd put my money on Malcom's car bringing far more than any beautifully restored stock R1 any day of the week. The only exception would be if the stocker was one of those zero mile purchased new and stored in a zip lock bag Avanti's.









http://community.webshots.com/user/s2dbaker?vhost=community

gordr
05-25-2009, 01:17 AM
Needless to say, I'm following this thread with great interest. Malcolm Berry's car is very, very nice indeed. Gives me a goal to shoot for, although I'd find it awfully hard to come near that standard of workmanship. I notice that he did not use the stainless steel ignition wire shielding, which is a major PITA to work with, and you know, the engine room looks just great without it.

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

wcarroll@outrageous.net
05-25-2009, 02:37 AM
Anyone able to identify or know what those mirrors are off of on Malcoms car?

Also, it appears the upper window drip mouldings have either been eliminated or are missing -or was this a running change in '63?

Without them, the rear swooping roof line really stands out and the upper front winshield corners look really clean/classy.

http://community.webshots.com/user/s2dbaker?vhost=community

Retired
05-25-2009, 03:17 AM
MIrrors; Painted AMC, maybe ?? Neat looking front end treatment

Richard

grobb284
05-25-2009, 07:48 AM
Avantis may end up like street rods and 1955-57 Chevys.
The cars are appreciated for their styling, but are desired with more creature comforts, handling, and better drive train.

Typicaly the tastefully modified vehicles sell for substantially more than their restored cousins.

JDP
05-25-2009, 10:08 AM
quote:Originally posted by Dick Steinkamp

Here's Malcom Berry's Avanti. My idea of a tastefully modified Avanti. Exceptional workmanship. Modified, blown Stude V8, 5 speed. VERY fast and handles like it is on rails.

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s66/ddstnkmp/south%20bend/IMG_2051.jpg

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s66/ddstnkmp/south%20bend/IMG_2050.jpg

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s66/ddstnkmp/south%20bend/a37f.jpg

Many, many, subtle but tasteful mods to this car that enhance the performance and appearance.

IMHO, it would sell for far more than a stocker.




Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA

http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww63/dstnkmp/pics075-1-1.jpg


Well, there is a exception to every rule. Certainly, a modified Avanti with many of thousands of modifications will bring more then a a stocker. I was think more along the lines of swapping the front seats, added sun roof or a non stock interior, not a high dollar restro rod. BTW, that is one incredible Avanti.

JDP/Maryland

Dick Steinkamp
05-25-2009, 10:18 AM
quote:Originally posted by JDP
I was think more along the lines of swapping the front seats, added sun roof or a non stock interior, not a high dollar restro rod. BTW, that is one incredible Avanti.




I totally agree, John. Throwing in some ugly seats, or cutting a hole in the roof, or slamming a modern stereo in the dash, or other such mods will LOWER the value of the car.


Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA

http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww63/dstnkmp/pics075-1-1.jpg

JBOYLE
05-25-2009, 11:31 AM
Less visible mods to make it more driveable are fine...after all how many drive on bias-ply tires?...but you have ot be carfull with changes to the body.

The Avanti's main clain to fame are its looks.
You stray too far from those and you might end up with neither "fish nor fowl".
You can hear some owner say at a car show...."Yeah it's an Avanti...but I 'improved' Loewy"s design".

Shaving emblems are okay since they're easy to reapply, but other changes are too subjective, so when it comes time to sell, you'll have to find someone who likes your taste.

Here's an example...Nice looking car above, I like most of the changes...but it needs headlight rings, IMHO. For me, those would kill any interest in buying the car.
The owner can modify the car any way he wants, but when it comes to buy a car, it's MY money and I'll buy what I want. :D

63 Avanti R1 2788
1914 Stutz Bearcat
(George Barris replica)

Washington State

Dick Steinkamp
05-25-2009, 01:28 PM
quote:Originally posted by JBOYLE

The owner can modify the car any way he wants, but when it comes to buy a car, it's MY money and I'll buy what I want.


John,
That's absolutely true...but that's not the question okc63avanti raised. He asked about what some specific mods would do to a car's VALUE...not if a specific individual would like or not like the mods.

My point is that Malcom's Avanti (and ones done to that level of taste and execution) will bring more in the market than a stock Avanti.

Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA

http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww63/dstnkmp/pics075-1-1.jpg

edpjr
05-25-2009, 02:25 PM
I paid over the reserve for the '63 R2 I just bought from you mainly because there was no rust anywhere in the structural metal, it runs good oil pressure, the blower works, the interior is pretty nice, and you have such a good reputation for selling quality cars. I wanted a mechanically sound vehicle. Getting it re-painted and a bumper rechromed is no problem. edp


quote:Originally posted by JDP

I've noticed Avanti's values are heading up for no particular reason on ebay lately, going well over reserve. This is a nice car, but the seats are not stock and yet it's going way over the reserve.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Studebaker_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ65Q3a3Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318QQ_trksidZp45 06Q2ec0Q2em245QQhashZitem3351dd86a7QQitemZ220416804519QQptZUSQ5fCarsQ5fTrucksQQs alenotsupported

JDP/Maryland

JDP
05-25-2009, 03:09 PM
quote:Originally posted by edpjr

I paid over the reserve for the '63 R2 I just bought from you mainly because there was no rust anywhere in the structural metal, it runs good oil pressure, the blower works, the interior is pretty nice, and you have such a good reputation for selling quality cars. I wanted a mechanically sound vehicle. Getting it re-painted and a bumper rechromed is no problem. edp




Thanks for that, and to be honest, I'm glad you're happy since I could have done a better job on the listing and I learn from every sale. i.e. I said I had to replace the ignition switch because the key broke off, but ir did not occur to me that you'd need another key for the doors. I missed the burned out dash bulbs because I did not drive it at night and although I mentioned the half tank of 4 year old gas, I did not know how nasty it was.
It was a car in hindsight that I should have spent more time on the detailing, even if I'd have asked more. I'm glad it worked out, but feel free to stay in touch in case the engine falls out or something :)
I've done worse BTW, Bams bought a car from me, and a wheel fell off on the way home, so you never know.

JDP/Maryland

okc63avanti
05-25-2009, 04:32 PM
quote:Originally posted by Dick Steinkamp

Here's Malcom Berry's Avanti. My idea of a tastefully modified Avanti. Exceptional workmanship. Modified, blown Stude V8, 5 speed. VERY fast and handles like it is on rails.

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s66/ddstnkmp/south%20bend/IMG_2051.jpg

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s66/ddstnkmp/south%20bend/IMG_2050.jpg

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s66/ddstnkmp/south%20bend/a37f.jpg

Many, many, subtle but tasteful mods to this car that enhance the performance and appearance.

IMHO, it would sell for far more than a stocker.




Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA

http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww63/dstnkmp/pics075-1-1.jpg


Dick do you know how to get in touch with Malcom Berry? I would like to know more about the wheels and tire sizes he is running. I intend on leaving the outside of the avanti all original with exception of rims. The interior will stay as original as possible with exceptiopn of adding seat similar to these (originally posted by SBCA96):

http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq16/okc63avanti/CamaroseatsAvanti3.jpg
http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq16/okc63avanti/CamaroseatsAvanti2.jpg
http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq16/okc63avanti/CamaroseatsAvanti1.jpg


<div align="left">John</div id="left">

<div align="left">'63 Avanti, R1, Auto, AC, PW (unrestored)</div id="left">
http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq16/okc63avanti/63StudebakerAvanti-1.jpg

grobb284
05-25-2009, 05:21 PM
From my trained eye, those are 225/60/16 rear, and perhaps 215/60/16 front.[8D]

Just kidding, I remember Phil Harris had 225/70/15 rear and 215/70/15 front, and Malcolm's were similar Metric sizes in 60 series 16's.

If I have forgotten the correct sizes, I'll never hear the end of this.

I have had the good fortune to see this car in person, there are a number of details that set it apart from other Avantis.

You can reach Malcolm through Phil Harris at Fairborn Studebaker, they have been close friends since before I was born, as they are both extremely old.:D

jlmccuan
05-25-2009, 05:40 PM
Just thinking out loud here, but it seems to me that improvements that would appeal to car buffs and not rule out purist interest at resale would include:

Dual master cylinder
Electronic ignition
Radial tires
Period correct wheels
Gas shocks
Sound system in trunk w/ remote in console or glove box
Rear view mirror wider and moved up on windshield
Halogen headlights and relays for power
Stainless steel exhaust
Higher amp alternator
Front air dam (to cover suspension as much as cooling)
Security system


To maintain value keep all stock parts.
Document all modifications pictorally
Keep all receipts


There are probably more, but anything that polarizes folks' opinions narrows your audience at resale. Of course, your car your money, just realize it may cost you to make the mod and then cost you again at resale.

Jim
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x98/jlmccuan/Avanti/AvantiSignature.jpghttp://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x98/jlmccuan/Avanti/DSCF4389.jpghttp://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x98/jlmccuan/Avanti/Logo/RabidSnailSignature.jpg
____1966 Avanti II RQA 0088_______________1963 Avanti R2 63R3152____________Rabid Snail Racing

jlmccuan
05-25-2009, 05:44 PM
Also, it appears the upper window drip mouldings have either been eliminated or are missing -or was this a running change in '63?

Without them, the rear swooping roof line really stands out and the upper front winshield corners look really clean/classy.



I believe some of the earliest cars were shipped without drip mouldings and dealers could get a kit to install them if the owner wished to have them.


Jim
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x98/jlmccuan/Avanti/AvantiSignature.jpghttp://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x98/jlmccuan/Avanti/DSCF4389.jpghttp://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x98/jlmccuan/Avanti/Logo/RabidSnailSignature.jpg
____1966 Avanti II RQA 0088_______________1963 Avanti R2 63R3152____________Rabid Snail Racing

JBOYLE
05-25-2009, 05:56 PM
quote:Originally posted by Dick Steinkamp


quote:Originally posted by JBOYLE

The owner can modify the car any way he wants, but when it comes to buy a car, it's MY money and I'll buy what I want.


John,
That's absolutely true...but that's not the question okc63avanti raised. He asked about what some specific mods would do to a car's VALUE...not if a specific individual would like or not like the mods.


My point is that Malcom's Avanti (and ones done to that level of taste and execution) will bring more in the market than a stock Avanti.

Dick Steinkamp


I don't dispute that, my point was simply by changing a car (especially visually since I'd suspect more so than other cars Avantis are purchased for their looks), you may have a smaller pool of customers.

Yes, it may bring more money than a bone-stock car but you might haver to wait longer to find a customer.
That's not necessarily bad, just a fact. As an example, my home is a one of a kind architect-designed modern...it will take longer to sell than a typical suburban ranch home.

63 Avanti R1 2788
1914 Stutz Bearcat
(George Barris replica)

Washington State

Dick Steinkamp
05-25-2009, 08:17 PM
quote:Originally posted by JBOYLE
I don't dispute that, my point was simply by changing a car (especially visually since I'd suspect more so than other cars Avantis are purchased for their looks), you may have a smaller pool of customers.

Yes, it may bring more money than a bone-stock car but you might haver to wait longer to find a customer.



John,
There are about 13,000 SDC members. Probably most of them are into stock Studebakers (10,000?). SOME of them are into bone stock Avantis (5,000?). There's your "audience" for a stock Avanti.

There are perhaps a hundred thousand (or more) into hot rods and customs. Do you really believe there is a bigger market for a stock Avanti or for a tastefully modified one?

We are ONLY talking about VALUE. Not personal likes or dislikes.

Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA

http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww63/dstnkmp/pics075-1-1.jpg

studegary
05-25-2009, 08:37 PM
Roof drip rail mouldings - refer to Studebaker Sales Letter No. 160 (6/3/63).
The net: They were installed as standard starting with R-4420. Kit P/N 1358925 is to install mouldings on earlier Avantis.

Gary L.
Wappinger, NY

SDC member since 1968
Studebaker enthusiast much longer

wcarroll@outrageous.net
05-25-2009, 09:06 PM
Hmm... maybe I should leave mine off then?

I was getting ready to reinstall them with new rubber, but really like the look without.

So am I to understand that without them, the car is prone to leaking water or is it a wind/noise thing?

http://community.webshots.com/user/s2dbaker?vhost=community

studegary
05-25-2009, 09:16 PM
I believe that the drip rails were to help prevent roof water from getting on the passengers and seats when the window and/or door is open.
I would think that wind/noise would be worse with them than without them.

Gary L.
Wappinger, NY

SDC member since 1968
Studebaker enthusiast much longer

PackardV8
05-26-2009, 09:54 AM
Hi, Dick,


quote:There are perhaps a hundred thousand (or more) into hot rods and customs.

I'd say many more than 100k rodders. Just the Good Guys Shows have that many attending. But then, how many hot rodded Avanti have we seen in the mags and at non-SDC shows over the years? None and never, pretty much. Yes, there are more rod & custom builders than SDC purists, but so far, the rod builders drive up prices for '53-54 C/Ks and won't touch an Avanti with a ten-foot pole. An example would be the Avanti race car Tom Covington bought. He got it for a fraction of what it cost to build it, most likely because none of the drag strip crowd had a clue as to what it was and didn't want to be seen in such an odd-looking car.

thnx,jack vines

PackardV8

JBOYLE
05-26-2009, 12:39 PM
quote:
We are ONLY talking about VALUE. Not personal likes or dislikes.
Dick Steinkamp


Dick, I always thought [u]likes and dislikes</u> help determine the value of a car...
Wonder why Ferraris are red?
Try taking a violet 360 (ordered to match the eyes of an ex-wife)...or an orange Rolls Royce fresh from the Bagwan's estate...to a broker. I'm guessing he'll agree with me.

Again, my main point is that an Avanti with a customized body will have to wait for a buyer to come along that likes the changes and agrees with the customizer's "vision".

If we go by conventional wisdom (not that that is sacrosanct) and written in publications like Sports Car Market and what we hear from the guys during the B-J auctions, one reason why rods and customs often bring only a fraction of their build cost is the difficulty in finding a buyer who shares the same taste as the customizer.

Whereas, if I'm offereing a visually stock red R-1 with all the options, anybody lookig for a nice Studebaker Avanti should like my car..and might buy it if they want a red car with an automatic and AC.

You took a post where I agreed with you and managed to infer I didn't.:D

63 Avanti R1 2788
1914 Stutz Bearcat
(George Barris replica)

Washington State

fmarshall
05-27-2009, 12:25 PM
Avantis were hotrods from the factory. Any modifications detract from their historic significance. The more mods that are made to Avantis work to increase the value of the one's that remain factory stock.

Why keep the paint the same color? The next owner can always repaint it. Why not "upgrade" the seats. The next owner can always fill in the mod holes, repair/replace the carpet and put the old seats in.

If you buy an Avanti to make it your own, cool. But, IMO, a modded Avanti is going to lag further behind the modded Chevy's than a stock Avanti will to a stock Chevy.





========================
63 Avanti R2, 4-Speed, 3.73 TT
Martinez, CA
http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd211/fmarshall_bucket/sigpic.jpg

okc63avanti
05-27-2009, 09:28 PM
The vast majority of Studebaker cars at our OKC chapter meet last month had at least some modifications for driveability, safety or performance and at a minimum many had custom wheels. None have major exterior body modifications. All of these cars could be sold in my opinion at high values not because of their percentage of factory stock but because they are well done mods("taseful" as some have said) but more importantly because the cars are in excellent mechanical shape and if someone desired an original could reverse some of the work (sell off the non factory items) and not have to do a lot of work to restore these vehicles. Also many of these members are tired of doing all the hard work to keep one original and then placing 2nd vs. 1st place for something minor. All of the original top judged cars are not original in the sense that none of these cars were in as nice as a condition when driving of the lot of a Studebaker dealer brand new.

My R1 with air will look 100% stock on exterior with exception of chrome custom rims and high speed performance radials. The engine will be original engine and body serial nos, but will now be a Paxton SN60 supercharged R2 with modern R134a AC and HEI ignition. The absence of the surge tank replaced by a Sanden style AC compressor will be the only noticeable change under the hood. Inside dash, instruments, factory AC, AM radio will all remain original. Only difference will be a nicely matching (style of original vinyl upholstery) higher back bucket seats with shoulder belts & a 5 speed shift nob. The interior will be nicely and professional done (reversible) but safe to drive. I had the original seats break over in half and lay down on me will driving on freeway in traffic at 60 MPH, I managed to hand on to wheel, not swerve to bad and sit up bench style until I could get off the freeway and prop up the seat back with items from the trunk. After being rear ended by an idiot 18 year old while driving my modern car with good seats, shoulder belts and surviving with some minor whiplash I what some protection.

Michael Myers tells me he will be finished in time for the 2010 National meet in Phoenix, so I plan to go there, enter in Stude powered modified category and win!!!

I do appreciate everyones comments pro and con on the value to expect for original vs. "tasteful" modified. For some model Studebakers maybe a restored all original does bring a better price, but I think Avanti owners are a different subset of the Studebaker universe who see them as high performance vehicles and are comfortable with performance, safety and comfort enhancements. I think ultimately the R2 with 5 speed, and AC will overcome the difference of modifications vs. its original R1 value. At the end of the day it doesn't matter as I do not plan on selling this car and plan on enjoying it for many years to come(until I am too old to drive)!

<div align="left">John</div id="left">

<div align="left">'63 Avanti, R1, Auto, AC, PW (unrestored)</div id="left">
http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq16/okc63avanti/63StudebakerAvanti-1.jpg

JBOYLE
05-27-2009, 11:35 PM
quote:Originally posted by okc63avanti
At the end of the day it doesn't matter as I do not plan on selling this car and plan on enjoying it for many years to come(until I am too old to drive)!


Sounds like a good plan to me!
Hopefully, I'll see you at the 2010 meet with my freshly restored Avanti...complete with radials and perhaps an electronic ignition system...and a hidden jack for my wife's ipod.
At the end of the day, let's keep our eye on the main factor..having fun.

63 Avanti R1 2788
1914 Stutz Bearcat
(George Barris replica)

Washington State

okc63avanti
05-28-2009, 09:17 PM
quote:Originally posted by JBOYLE


quote:Originally posted by okc63avanti
At the end of the day it doesn't matter as I do not plan on selling this car and plan on enjoying it for many years to come(until I am too old to drive)!


Sounds like a good plan to me!
Hopefully, I'll see you at the 2010 meet with my freshly restored Avanti...complete with radials and perhaps an electronic ignition system...and a hidden jack for my wife's ipod.
At the end of the day, let's keep our eye on the main factor..having fun.

63 Avanti R1 2788
1914 Stutz Bearcat
(George Barris replica)

Washington State


I look forward to seeing you in Phoenix. Having fun it what its about and in my case about 90~100 HP more fun power when the engine mods are done.

<div align="left">John</div id="left">

<div align="left">'63 Avanti, R1, Auto, AC, PW (unrestored)</div id="left">
http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq16/okc63avanti/63StudebakerAvanti-1.jpg

edpjr
05-31-2009, 01:52 PM
I like original cars. However, there are some things worth addressing aftermarket. Here's my humble opinion. One of the most glaring weaknesses on my '63 Avanti R2 is the single master cylinder. I already ordered a dual MC conversion kit. Another thing, I discovered the dual point prestolite distributor in my car had been replaced somewhere along the line with a single-point. While I'd like to go back to the original, there seem to be no usable prestolite dual point distributors in existence. So, I guess I'm headed for a HEI conversion too. I'm also very interested in installing A/C on my car. Who's gonna take off on a 500-1000 mile road trip these days with no A/C? Not me. Regarding tires, buy the best compatible design available today. Conversely, I won't be adding mag-wheels, souping up the engine, or customizing anything. That stuff is unnecessary.

PackardV8
05-31-2009, 04:09 PM
quote:That stuff is unnecessary.what is necessary and unnecessary is always a matter of opinion. I've put fifty years and hundreds of thousands of miles on single master cylinders; with flushing the fluid every three years, never a problem. JMHO, but if I were concerned with safety and originality on a driver, I'd rebuild the entire system, including new lines and stay with the single. If concerned with originality, there were thousands of Avantis OEM with AC. There are plenty of usable Prestolites out there and JDP will find one for you, guaranteed.

As always, your car, your money, your decisions.

jack vines

PackardV8

JBOYLE
05-31-2009, 08:23 PM
There is a huge difference, resale-time wise, between doing common sense/drivability stuff (Dual MC, radials, Elec. ignition, some engine upgrades) and easier to undo mods (new seats, radios, shaving emblems, different wheels) and more radical changes to the looks/performance (frenched lights, shaving bumpers, painting the dash black, different tranny).

At some point, changes will effect its value in the long run.
IMHO, if you want to do a lot of powertrain changes, you might as well start with a cheaper Avanti II. No need to stater with a Stude powerplant if all you're goingto do is swap it out.

I don't think anyone buying a collector car is demanding that the original brake lines be in place...

63 Avanti R1 2788
1914 Stutz Bearcat
(George Barris replica)

Washington State

Thomas63R2
06-01-2009, 01:52 AM
Enjoy your car any way you choose, its alright by me.

Its interesting to see how the Avanti and Avanti II have been viewed through the years. As I re-read my collection of Avanti Newletters, Magazines, and other past contemporary writings on the Avanti I am struck by a couple of things:
1) Before the Avanti II was assured of a continuing success it was cautiously well received. There were doubters that it would be anything more than a quick flash, then fizzle - no one else had any success in being a small time U.S. based specialty car builder.
2) As the Avanti II kept piling up more years of production under its belt - that was a real point of pride amongst all Avanti lovers that it was an ageless design that still looked new and fresh (just two weeks ago I was asked if my Avanti was a new car - it still happens).
3) The Avanti II reviews stressed the part about how the newer the Avanti, the better the construction. That the Avanti II was a perfected Avanti worthy of a premium.
4) Avanti II values seemed to drive the market value.
5) The passage of time has turned this around as collectors usually favor original Studebaker versions.

Each of us will have our own value system on stock vs. modified cars. You should like whatever you like and enjoy your car as if it will have no future value other than your driving and car show fun.

To some extent I wonder if the value of Avantis isn't currently being driven by long time collectors who are getting bored with the status quo.

Thomas

Thomas

Long time hot rodder
Packrat junk collector
'63 Avanti R2 4 speed

Kenmike2
06-02-2009, 12:31 AM
Just did a pre-sale inspection on a '63 Avanti that did sell. It moved from AZ to GA for $24,000. It was an excellent condition original with new paint only. Prices are going up. I've also sold 2, 53 coupes for customers within the past 2 weeks. One went for $14,000 and one went for $15,000. Hope this is an indicator that the depression may be ending.

REgards
Ken Michael

Rich
06-07-2009, 12:23 AM
This is an interesting topic for me since I am preparing to sell my modified 64. Virgil Rice modified this car in the mid 70's to replicate the wheel flares that Loewy and team presented to Studebaker (as seen on the clay model). It was on display at the Bellevue Art Museum for 4 months and was a big hit. I expected to keep this car forever, but the current economy cost me my job and, as most of you know, situations can change. With only 20K on the car and having never seen the rain, this car is just about as good of shape as one can possibly hope for - BUUUTTT, because it's modified, I'm curious to know what it's worth. I've offered it to Mike Minge in Bellinghame for $18K. If doesn't take it, I'll put it on Ebay and we all can see what such a rare, yet modified, Avanti can bring. If I knew how to post pictures, I'd do so....
Rich

Richard Morris
Renton, WA
64 Avanti R-1 #5367
90 Avanti 4-door #78

Rich
06-07-2009, 05:49 PM
Let me try to post a picture of my 64. If successful, I'd like to hear responses to the visible modifications (wheel flares, split rear bumper, two tone paint). Not so visible is the IDIDIT tilt steering column, 700-R4 transmission, S-W Stage III gauges and high back bucket seats.

http://i641.photobucket.com/albums/uu132/RichardMor/LeftRear8-1-03.jpg

http://i641.photobucket.com/albums/uu132/RichardMor/Front8-1-03.jpg

In case anyone is interested, here's one of my 90 4-door:

http://i641.photobucket.com/albums/uu132/RichardMor/P6050020SolidRockShows.jpg

I'd also be interested in comments about this bit I wrote when the car was on display at the Bellevue (WA) Art Museum:

http://i641.photobucket.com/albums/uu132/RichardMor/P1010607.jpg

Thanks,
Rich

Richard Morris
Renton, WA
64 Avanti R-1 #5367
90 Avanti 4-door #78

JDP
06-07-2009, 05:59 PM
I like the flares and wheels, neutral on the rear bumper. Not fond of the blue dot tail lights extra Avanti script, side molding and two tone paint and fog lights, but I'm a minimalist kind of car guy. I tend to take stuff off and not add. You built the car to your taste not mine and that's all that counts.

JDP/Maryland

bams50
06-07-2009, 06:16 PM
quote:Originally posted by JDP

I've done worse BTW, Bams bought a car from me, and a wheel fell off on the way home, so you never know.



I forgot about that, that was a hoot! No biggie, only regret was ruining a one of those wide whites[B)] Gotta find one replacement...

Rich, I love that Avanti! Personally I'd probably go with the full bumper and ditch the fog lights, at least for resale. What engine/trans. is in it?

Robert (Bob) Andrews- on the IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys)
Parish, central NY 13131
http://www.patrioticon.org/images/flag3-1.gif

Rich
06-07-2009, 07:01 PM
I have Jag style exhaust that come up between the split bumper but I had to remove them. Practically asphyxiated me every drive....:-) but looked great sitting still.

John, I agree with the blue dots, looking to replace with new lens covers. Ditto with the fog lights. I really like the side molding, tho.

See what I did with the back up lights, tho:

http://i641.photobucket.com/albums/uu132/RichardMor/P1010073.jpg

Engine is a slightly reworked R-1 with #1406 Edelbrock carb. Although the 383 SBC in my 4-door sounds great, there is nothing that sounds like a Stude V8.

Rich



Richard Morris
Renton, WA
64 Avanti R-1 #5367
90 Avanti 4-door #78

studegary
06-07-2009, 09:47 PM
Since you asked - the rear looks too busy to me. I would drop the extra trim and the blue dots and a full width bumper lends a less chopped up look to the rear.

Gary L.
Wappinger, NY

SDC member since 1968
Studebaker enthusiast much longer

PlainBrownR2
06-07-2009, 09:52 PM
With the flares the rear of that Avanti is looking alot more Corvette-like. :)

[IMG=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/55%20Studebaker%20Commander%20Streetrod%20Project/DSC00017-1-1.jpg[/IMG=left]
[IMG=left]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/55%20Studebaker%20Commander%20Streetrod%20Project/DSC00017-4-1.jpg[/IMG=left]
[IMG=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/Ex%20Studebaker%20Plant%20Locomotive/P1000578-1.jpg[/IMG=right]
[IMG=right]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/PlainBrownR2/My%201964%20Studebaker%20Commander%20R2/P1010168.jpg[/IMG=right]

bams50
06-07-2009, 10:00 PM
Rich, I'm not a buyer, but how about an interior shot and a side view?? I've always thought the Avanti wheel openings looked awkward and off-center. Those flare look like just the right answer[8D]

Robert (Bob) Andrews- on the IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys)
Parish, central NY 13131
http://www.patrioticon.org/images/flag3-1.gif

jlmccuan
06-07-2009, 11:06 PM
I've wondered about the split bumperettes on the front ala Camaro/Corvette on my '66

Jim
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x98/jlmccuan/Avanti/AvantiSignature.jpghttp://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x98/jlmccuan/Avanti/DSCF4389.jpghttp://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x98/jlmccuan/Avanti/Logo/RabidSnailSignature.jpg
____1966 Avanti II RQA 0088_______________1963 Avanti R2 63R3152____________Rabid Snail Racing

Rich
06-07-2009, 11:41 PM
I agree with the comment on the business of the rear. I'm hoping it will look better once I re-install the Jag-style exhaust with cut outs that let the exhaust escape towards the ground. Plus, I like John's idea to remove the "Avanti" script in the rear and get rid of the blue dots.

Here's a couple shots of the interior/dash (the mis-aligned carpet has been fixed):

http://i641.photobucket.com/albums/uu132/RichardMor/P1010589.jpg

http://i641.photobucket.com/albums/uu132/RichardMor/P1010599.jpg

Here's a shot from the rear with the Jag exhaust (poor pic - sorry)(this was before I installed brake lights where the back up lights were originally, halogen back up lights, and LED 3rd brake light high up on the back window):

http://i641.photobucket.com/albums/uu132/RichardMor/ExtRear.jpg

I removed the battery to the trunk which, to me, really cleans up the engine compartment.

Appreciate all the comments. Because of our precarious financial situation (would you believe my wife and I both got laid off!), I'm more interested in ever in knowing what you guys think I should do to improve interest in and possible value for this car. Thanks.

Rich

Richard Morris
Renton, WA
64 Avanti R-1 #5367
90 Avanti 4-door #78

Rich
06-08-2009, 12:04 AM
One other thing I thought I'd add that might interest some of you.

I received a call a couple months ago from two guys that were researching the subject of custom cars in the 50's and 60's. They were on the subject of Virgil Rice and The Victress - ever hear of that car? Here's a link to some info:

http://www.classicaldrives.com/50226711/the_victress_sports_car_gone_though_not_quite_forgotten.php

These guys told me Virgil (the prior owner of my Avanti) designed and built The Victress. I got their contact info and plan to keep in touch with them and obtain any publications they issue.

Rich

Richard Morris
Renton, WA
64 Avanti R-1 #5367
90 Avanti 4-door #78

bams50
06-08-2009, 05:25 AM
Rich, I don't know for sure, but my guess is for sale purposes you definitely would not want those upturned pipes in the last picture. Might consider going back to the stock real/backup light configuration too.


Robert (Bob) Andrews- on the IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys)
Parish, central NY 13131
http://www.patrioticon.org/images/flag3-1.gif

edpjr
06-10-2009, 02:32 PM
I'm not sure Studebaker Avanti values have really gone up. And I'm sure the depression hasn't ended. In fact it will get worse with 9.4% unemployment and oil/gas prices skyrocketing back up again. Maybe for a while a few people like me that wanted an Avanti for 30+ years just took the plunge. I will say to those considering buying a vintage Avanti, be wary of one thing; parts are hard to find and extremely expensive. I bought my particular car because the undercarriage wasn't rusted and the blower worked. If the hog troughs on an Avanti are bad, you're looking at thousands of $$$ to fix. Since Avanti's are fibreglass, don't expect an economical paint job either; $3-5K is a deal. A replacement exterior emblem kit is about $300+ too. A front or rear windshield will cost you $300-500. I've been told most prestolite dual point distributors are worn out by 60K miles, so plan on another $200-400 to go electronic. If your 4-V carb's bad, one needing a complete rebuild just went for over $500 on eBay. There are no new chrome valve covers available and rechromed ones will cost you $200-300 per set. And, you can't even buy chrome oil caps to fit at a regular auto parts store. Good luck if you need a bumper, they're all rechromed and scarce as hen's teeth; $5-6-700 each. Even finding a nice original windshield wiper arm is virtually impossible. Power window motors are around $200. And, if you need any switches, relays, circuit breakers, gauges, interior parts, lenses, etc., don't bother Auto Zone or NAPA. You'll have to hope you can find them from a Stude vendor at any price. I won't even get into motor, transmission and brake parts. In sum, either spend $30-40K on an original low-mileage car or plan on opening your wallet and spending thousands of $$$ fixing up one that needs refurbishment. Also, plan on doing a lot of the work yourself unless you have a local Avanti mechanic handy. Nearly all garages roll their eyes when you bring in a Studebaker, and even more so, when it's an Avanti. Avanti's are wonderful and beautiful cars, but they bring pain whenever they need mechanical or body work and/or parts.

Rich
06-10-2009, 03:38 PM
Sounds like a pessimistic post! If you look at owning an Avanti (or any classic car for that matter) as an investment, you should look elsewhere. However, if you desire to own one, you make some valid points. Ones that JDP has been making for years - "nothing more expensive than a cheap Avanti". You make me think $18k for my 20,000 mile Avanti is a deal. How many people have frames that are so clean they have pin striping....:-)

I once owned an 85 in which the frame rails had rusted from the inside out. What a nightmare that turned out to be.

Rich

Richard Morris
Renton, WA
64 Avanti R-1 #5367
90 Avanti 4-door #78

Gunslinger
06-10-2009, 03:50 PM
I disagree on how difficult it CAN be to rebuild an Avanti. Yes...some parts are difficult to find, but that's mostly confined to trim. Mechanically, most post-war Studes are not hard to get parts for. Maybe you have to wait for delivery, but most are available. Body and trim, of course, can be difficult and that's where donor cars and the reproduction market come in.

When I rebuilt the '70 Avanti I purchased several years ago...Chevy engine notwithstanding...there was exactly one part I absolutely could not come up with, and it was an Avanti II part, not a Studebaker sourced one. The part I wanted to replace was not bad, just unsightly and it ended up being reused.

Yes...all old cars can be and are expensive to restore and rebuild...not just Avanti's or Studebakers in general. I used to have a '67 Dodge Charger...the parts market for that is very slim and very expensive. The reproduction suppliers have yet to catch to that model.

Avanti's, like all cars, have their unique problems and most of us owners have had to deal with them. There is also a healthy aftermarket for parts...both NOS, reproduction and used originals. It takes some research, searching and some luck and most things can be found or reconditioned.




Poet...Mystic...Soldier of Fortune. As always...self-absorbed, adversarial, cocky and in general a malcontent.

JBOYLE
06-10-2009, 04:04 PM
quote:Originally posted by Rich
Plus, I like John's idea to remove the "Avanti" script in the rear and get rid of the blue dots.
Rich


I'm glad you said that because I wasn't going to...for fear of hurting your feelings and being seen as too critical by forum members.
I agree with JDP's comments.
I hate the blue dots, they're okay on a 50s car, but out of place on an Avanti. (Some guys seem to think that every "collector" car needs 50's cliches like blue dots and fuzzy dice. At least the PO didn't graft on a Continental kit. Rant over. :D).

I like the flares....they don't look out of place.

IMHO, a stock Avanti is a perfect example of minimalist design as seen on several classics from the early 60s...(as exemplified on the 61-on Lincoln and the E-Type Jaguar, perhaps the 63-65 Riveria) but it was so modern that it could pass for a late 60s-early 70s car when fender flares were all the rage.

The Jag exhaust is neat. It fits the car too. I love my Avanti's look, I've never had a car with duals before.


quote:Originally posted by edpjr
Since Avanti's are fibreglass, don't expect an economical paint job either; $3-5K is a deal.

Before having my car painted by a great SDC member (Allen Barth, aka: oltruknut) I was quoted $20,000 for a paint job from a Corvette shop. I figured it was a guy too proud of his work and kept busy by monied Corvette fans.
Yesterday, I was talking with a friend who has a body shop and telling him how Allen was doing my car. He said "For I job like that, I'd have to charge you $20,000".

The prices edpjr quotes aren't out of line. I bet a Corvette would cost as much to restore.
BUT, the Avanti/Stude fanatic factor is this: A Corvette buyer stands a good chance of recooping his "investment" when he sells the car. There is a very good an Avanti restorer won't. We're in this for love...or the long haul.

63 Avanti R1 2788
1914 Stutz Bearcat
(George Barris replica)

Washington State

fmarshall
06-10-2009, 04:05 PM
Perhaps, I'm a rare individual, as I spent many years as a NAPA store owner, and part's person. But, I have found the search for Avanti parts to be far simpler than many parts on the big 3 autos.

And as far as pricing, a collector car will always cost more to maintain than that of an old car.

Part's for my Porsche cost far more than the Avanti. A molded plastic interior door handle costs $180.

If you go into the hobby thinking that an old car is going to be cheap and challenging to maintain, it is or isn't depending on your perspective IMO.

========================
63 Avanti R2, 4-Speed, 3.73 TT
Martinez, CA
http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd211/fmarshall_bucket/sigpic.jpg

wcarroll@outrageous.net
06-10-2009, 07:08 PM
I like the bumper treatment.

http://community.webshots.com/user/s2dbaker?vhost=community

edpjr
06-10-2009, 08:15 PM
With all due respect; to any of you gentlemen that seem to find Avanti parts much easier than me, please give me a headsup on where I can find and purchase an original chrome plated wiper arm(s) and/or a nice rear bumper. Thanks!

ps I sold auto parts and accessories in NC from 1971-1981 and have owned 5 Studebakers.

wcarroll@outrageous.net
06-10-2009, 08:32 PM
Someone has been unloading a bunch of NOS Avanti parts on Ebay. You might send them a question through one of their auctions and ask if they have the parts you're seeking.

http://community.webshots.com/user/s2dbaker?vhost=community

edpjr
06-10-2009, 09:26 PM
I've been watching eBay closely. I've seen a used Paxton blower, an R2 Carter AFB carb that needed rebuilding, a set of chrome valve covers that had rust and peeling like mine, and a Prestolite dual-point distributor. But all these parts are clearly used, not NOS.


quote:Originally posted by wcarroll@outrageous.net

Someone has been unloading a bunch of NOS Avanti parts on Ebay. You might send them a question through one of their auctions and ask if they have the parts you're seeking.

http://community.webshots.com/user/s2dbaker?vhost=community

Gunslinger
06-10-2009, 09:39 PM
Edpjr...

Most of us learned how to find parts by reading this site, the AOAI site, the Yahoo Avanti group, the AOAI Magazine, Turning Wheels, Bob Johnstone's website, Ebay, swap meets such as York, PA and sometimes luck. Many Avanti parts are not Avanti specific...they will interchange with other makes, though this is usually smaller parts like horn relays, dimmer switch, circuit breakers, brake light switches, etc. For parts like those NAPA, Pep Boys, Advance Auto and others will have them even if they don't list Studebaker or Avanti. As an example, the dual points ignition set, as well as the distributor cap and rotor are the same as a Mopar Hemi from the 1960's. Again, the parts guides won't likely show that, but it's simply you learn after a while with these cars.

Ebay is a great source for many good used and NOS parts, though I've often seen those parts go for more money than you can buy them from established Studebaker and Avanti vendors such as Studebaker International, Jon Myer's Studebaker and Nostalgic Motors. All it usually takes is to give one of the vendors a call for a part before making a bid on Ebay. There are other fine, established vendors and I don't mean to leave them out, and they are generally listed on Bob Johnstone's Avanti Source website.

The wiper arms are unfortunately Avanti specific, so you have to call some of the vendors and see what they might have. The same goes for the rear bumper. The parts are out there...it usually takes a bit of searching and effort to find them. A re-chromed rear bumper sold recently on Ebay, so timing is everything. Ask a lot of questions here...lots of experience and helpful people are here.




Poet...Mystic...Soldier of Fortune. As always...self-absorbed, adversarial, cocky and in general a malcontent.

wcarroll@outrageous.net
06-10-2009, 09:49 PM
You need to watch more closely:

Active items:

http://motors.shop.ebay.com/merchant/avantilady_W0QQ_nkwZQQ_armrsZ1QQ_fromZ

and Completed items:

http://motors.completed.shop.ebay.com/merchant/avantilady_W0QQLHQ5fCompleteZ1QQ_flnZ1QQ_trksidZp3911Q2ec0Q2em283?_rdc=1


...and as I said, you have to ask the seller if they have what you want ;)

http://community.webshots.com/user/s2dbaker?vhost=community

Dick Steinkamp
06-10-2009, 09:50 PM
Here's a link to many of the Stude parts vendors...

http://www.studebakervendors.com/

Here's Nate's cross reference list of hard parts...

http://members.cox.net/njnagel/files/Interchange.pdf

Here's Bob Johnstone's site. Loaded with cross reference lists and other resources...

http://www.studebaker-info.org/

If you attend the Iowa meet, you will meet lots of helpful vendors in person.

Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA

http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww63/dstnkmp/pics075-1-1.jpg

Thomas63R2
06-10-2009, 10:01 PM
Only time will tell where Avanti values go. In the meantime I hope that the other owners are enjoying their Avanti as much as I do mine.

I'm still trying to figure out what the complaint was about parts prices and availability - none of the quoted prices seemed out of line vs, other obsolete vintage car parts.

Considering the small number of Avantis that Studebaker made 46 years ago, and the smaller number that still remain - the current parts availability is amazing. Even more amazing is that new reproduction parts keep showing up - often because the vendor loves Studebakers and Avantis, with no great business case to support the making of new parts.

Just because you are quoted $20k for a paint job doesn't mean that your car needs a $20k paint job. Some of the high end shops have show car and concours work lined up for more than a couple of years in advance - so they increase their quotes until the backlog matches the pace of work. Enterprise in action, God bless them for their fine work and success.

There is always the One Day Paint shop that can actually turn out fair quality for the cost.

Even more low budget: I've seen show winners that were painted by their owner as he went through a local vo-tech class on automotive painting.

You would be mistaken if you thought that Avantis were more singled out for bias than other antique cars by most repair shops. The fact is that all old cars can be a distraction for a production shop - and then tie up a lift or repair stall while parts are hunted down. I've heard that some shop managers don't like the economics of having an antique car come in: the other mechanics all gather around and waste billable time, the young mechanic working on the car has to learn the different repair tricks that come with old cars. And perhaps worst of all: the Avanti caso. I've done my own work for more than thirty years, but I do know of a Stude friendly local shop that has transitioned away from Studes, and prefers vintage Cadillacs instead. The reason is simple: Stude owners were always complaining about the cost and were less willing to pay for quality parts - meanwhile the vintage Caddy owners most wanted to know when it would be done.

As for bumper availability maybe some enterprising vendor will take on weld up replacements. The need for replacement Avanti bumpers is too small for even a small run of finished bumpers, but I think there could be a supportable market for unfinished bumper kits that require the buyer to have a little welding done and chromed at the shop of their choice. What I am thinking is that with the generally simple design of the Avanti rear bumper a metal shop could make the center part of the bumper on a heavy guage metal brake, then cut end caps on a CNC, then either the metal shop or the customer welds the end caps and mounting tabs onto the center section. Viola - new rear bumper that only needs to be chromed. Done this way it could be a heavier guage metal too.

Thomas

Long time hot rodder
Packrat junk collector
'63 Avanti R2 4 speed

Dick Steinkamp
06-10-2009, 10:14 PM
Here are the latest COMPLETED eBay listings for Avanti's...

http://motors.completed.shop.ebay.com/items/Cars-Trucks__avanti?LH_Complete=1&_catref=1&_dmpt=US_Cars_Trucks&_fln=1&_sacat=6001&_trksid=p4506.c0.m283&_rdc=1

There are 11 of them. 10 didn't meet reserve and didn't sell.

The one that sold...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Avanti-R-1-Original-Unrestored_W0QQitemZ110394854873QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item19b40 bcdd9&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=65%3A13|39%3A1|240%3A1308

...was a nice original car, and I think a bargain at $16,710.

IMHO, eBay is the best judge of real value. Asking prices, price guides, big name auctions, etc. are not real world (again MHO).



Dick Steinkamp
Bellingham, WA

http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww63/dstnkmp/pics075-1-1.jpg

JBOYLE
06-10-2009, 10:38 PM
Re: the hard to find Avanti parts....
That's why you want to pay the extra money up front for a complete car. I bought mine for a good deal less that the "Bargain" car Dick mentions, and it had all its expensive and or hard to find parts.

During it restoration, I did (or had done) a lot of "extra" work that wasn't really required, like a complete balanced engine rebuild..but that was my call, done more as a "...while it's out of the car..." thing. It wil give me more peace of mind while on a long trip.


63 Avanti R1 2788
1914 Stutz Bearcat
(George Barris replica)

Washington State

edpjr
06-10-2009, 11:24 PM
Unfortunately, these particular parts on eBay are not any I currently need. It is a good idea to send the seller an email to ask about availability of other parts.


quote:Originally posted by wcarroll@outrageous.net

You need to watch more closely:

Active items:

http://motors.shop.ebay.com/merchant/avantilady_W0QQ_nkwZQQ_armrsZ1QQ_fromZ

and Completed items:

http://motors.completed.shop.ebay.com/merchant/avantilady_W0QQLHQ5fCompleteZ1QQ_flnZ1QQ_trksidZp3911Q2ec0Q2em283?_rdc=1


...and as I said, you have to ask the seller if they have what you want ;)

http://community.webshots.com/user/s2dbaker?vhost=community

edpjr
06-10-2009, 11:57 PM
I didn't buy my Avanti as an investment. Nor did I spend $50K+ on my '07 Vette expecting to make any $$$ on it either. I just like fast cars. I like Studebakers, and always wanted a Studebaker Avanti. Even when I was driving a black 2 dr HT Lark with the factory 259 4-V and dual exhaust from 1974-1981, I really wanted an Avanti. So I recently bought an R2 for $15K knowing full well that it needed paint, a headliner kit, rechromed rear bumper, and, at minimum, a full blown tune-up. I bought this particular car because it had no rust, the blower works, the engine runs 60 psi oil press and the interior, sans headliner, is generally nice. The steering, brakes and auto trans (except for a small leak) appear to be in good shape too. The gauges work, so does the AM radio, and it has power windows. The car is being repainted right now in the original turquoise color. It had to be completely stripped. And, I've either secured or ordered a Tbow Mallory dist, all replacement emblems, a dual MC conversion kit, rechromed valve covers, oil caps, gas cap, and a carb kit, among other things. However, I never dreamed it would be so hard to find an original chrome plated wiper arm when mine flew off unexpectedly and was destroyed. Nobody had a NOS Prestolite dual-point distributor either. And, I'll have to live with my rear bumper or have it rechromed myself, cause nobody's got one in stock. I guess I mistakenly figured that a lot of these chrome and body parts would be the same as Avanti II, and therefore more easily available. Despite the relatively small numbers of Avantis, I don't know of any other car design that was in production most of the time from 1962 to 2008.

[quote]quote:Originally posted by Thomas63R2

Only time will tell where Avanti values go. In the meantime I hope that the other owners are enjoying their Avanti as much as I do mine.

I'm still trying to figure out what the complaint was about parts prices and availability - none of the quoted prices seemed out of line vs, other obsolete vintage car parts.

Considering the small number of Avantis that Studebaker made 46 years ago, and the smaller number that still remain - the current parts availability is amazing. Even more amazing is that new reproduction parts keep showing up - often because the vendor loves Studebakers and Avantis, with no great business case to support the making of new parts.

Just because you are quoted $20k for a paint job doesn't mean that your car needs a $20k paint job. Some of the high end shops have show car and concours work lined up for more than a couple of years in advance - so they increase their quotes until the backlog matches the pace of work. Enterprise in action, God bless them for their fine work and success.

There is always the One Day Paint shop that can actually turn out fair quality for the cost.

Even more low budget: I've seen show winners that were painted by their owner as he went through a local vo-tech class on automotive painting.

You would be mistaken if you thought that Avantis were more singled out for bias than other antique cars by most repair shops. The fact is that all old cars can be a distraction for a production shop - and then tie up a lift or repair stall while parts are hunted down. I've heard that some shop managers don't like the economics of having an antique car come in: the other mechanics all gather around and waste billable time, the young mechanic working on the car has to learn the different repair tricks that come with old cars. And perhaps worst of all: the Avanti caso. I've done my own work for more than thirty years, but I do know of a Stude friendly local shop that has transitioned away from Studes, and prefers vintage Cadillacs instead. The reason is simple: Stude owners were always complaining about the cost and were less willing to pay for quality parts - meanwhile the vintage Caddy owners most wanted to know when it would be done.

As fo

Thomas63R2
06-11-2009, 09:25 PM
Okay, time to get creative on the wiper arm:

The basic shape and attatchment on the Avanti wiper arm is pretty generic 1960's American car - but it is a lot shorter than just about everything else from the era.

So find chrome look alikes that are *too long* on the arm. Cut the excess off the end of the arm. Drill a small hole where the retaining pin should be. Press in a short length of solid rod into the small drilled hole. Attach your wiper blades to the reworked wiper arms - and Viola!, it looks like new again.

Just a little more work than an off the shelf part, but still easy to do.

I've heard good things about the TBow Mallory distributor, although I think it will need to be recurved for an R2. underneath the Avanti ignition shielding no one will really know you are running a modern Mallory vs. the original Prestolite.

Post some pics when your paint is done.

Thomas

Long time hot rodder
Packrat junk collector
'63 Avanti R2 4 speed

edpjr
06-11-2009, 10:10 PM
My rechromed valve covers arrived today from Mr. Helms and they're pretty darn nice. I got the chrome STP oil caps too. I also picked up a rebuild kit for the R2 Carter AFB 4-V Carb. Today I ordered the front windshield and rear window rubber gaskets, underhood insulation, a transmission filter kit, plug wires and plenty many other little odds and ends. Maybe in another month or two I can post some pictures of a fairly nice R2 Avanti. :D

What type transmission fluid does an Avanti use?

edpjr
06-11-2009, 10:13 PM
Lordy, you are much more ingenious and patient than me![8D]


quote:Originally posted by Thomas63R2

Okay, time to get creative on the wiper arm:

The basic shape and attatchment on the Avanti wiper arm is pretty generic 1960's American car - but it is a lot shorter than just about everything else from the era.

So find chrome look alikes that are *too long* on the arm. Cut the excess off the end of the arm. Drill a small hole where the retaining pin should be. Press in a short length of solid rod into the small drilled hole. Attach your wiper blades to the reworked wiper arms - and Viola!, it looks like new again.

Just a little more work than an off the shelf part, but still easy to do.

I've heard good things about the TBow Mallory distributor, although I think it will need to be recurved for an R2. underneath the Avanti ignition shielding no one will really know you are running a modern Mallory vs. the original Prestolite.

Post some pics when your paint is done.

Thomas

Long time hot rodder
Packrat junk collector
'63 Avanti R2 4 speed

PackardV8
06-12-2009, 10:39 AM
quote:Okay, time to get creative on the wiper arm. The basic shape and attatchment on the Avanti wiper arm is pretty generic 1960's American car - but it is a lot shorter than just about everything else from the era. So find chrome look alikes that are *too long* on the arm. Cut the excess off the end of the arm. Drill a small hole where the retaining pin should be. Press in a short length of solid rod into the small drilled hole. Attach your wiper blades to the reworked wiper arms - and Viola!, it looks like new again. Just a little more work than an off the shelf part, but still easy to do.


quote:Lordy, you are much more ingenious and patient than me!

The two above are only the latest in a long discussion here as to whether the Avanti a difficult and expensive car to own. Some of those who do are the CASOs who have always wanted an Avanti and stepped up from the more common steel bodied cars; if one is used to SASCO having every NOS Lark part, the other vendors having the C/K and the woods being full of free or cheap parts cars, then the Avanti is difficult. If one is a natural "fixer" or has come from other restorations where parts are non-existant, then the Avanti is a piece of inexpensive, but eye-catching pastry. All in the perspective.

thnx, jack vines

PackardV8

Thomas63R2
06-12-2009, 03:43 PM
In a little more time than it takes to bemoan the lack of new Avanti wiper arms, I can have a new set done via my creative way. If you want to do your own restoration these are the kinds of things you will do - which is exactly what is done at any quality restoration shop http://www.whitepost.com/

Unobtainable parts are recreated all the time. Some like the Avanti wiper arms are easy, others require more effort and funding. I know that Ed Reynolds is re-tooling the "Pirate buckle" chrome trim on the Avanti sail panel. The new die cast part will finally be an exact duplicate of the original. Ed probably spent $10,000 on re-tooling. It will take several years of selling the new version of this part to make the payoff - God bless Ed for taking the business gamble that enough of us will buy the new version of this part.

For the money I've spent fixing up other vintage cars I could have a flotilla of Studebakers. Studes, even the Avantis, are a bargain. The typical caveat that Avantis don't generally attract much money in the resale market may change as the caso's die off. Few of the new owners even think about a time when chrome valve covers were $9.95 surplus stock.

What will probably continue to happen with Avantis is that some people will get starry eyed and start a restoration on an Avanti that should more rightly be parted out. Unfortunately those people, if they finish the restoration, will have spent money foolishly - there is no reason to get emotional about fixing up a specific car unless you truely have a personal connection with that car. For odd resons Avanti project cars seem to attract people with little auto restoration experience. Not every car can, or should be, "saved."

Thomas

Long time hot rodder
Packrat junk collector
'63 Avanti R2 4 speed

bige
06-12-2009, 04:58 PM
Thomas, I don't disagree that the hobby necessitates the ability to make something when the catalog doesn't list it, you should have seen the bracketry I built to install a Camaro shifter in the Avanti. However, the Avanti arm is not easily found on brand X's of the era. The dogleg goes opposite of most everything I've looked at ( I may have missed something, of course ).

Back to the original theme of the thread...I think physical changes that cannot be reversed, economically, will impact values greatly. I haven't seen too many modified Stude Avantis on ebay to draw a comparison but I have been watching 58-60 Thunderbirds and there have been a couple of modified cars that looked to be in better overall condition than some untouched cars listed and they were not doing anywhere near what a stock car was bringing. I'm open to a modified car so I have been paying close attention to those auctions and the numbers are 50-60% less than comparable stock T Birds.

My R2 has mechanical mods that many would consider improvements, 200 4r, four wheel disc brakes, modern carb etc. but next to a bone stock car in similar condition I firmly believe it will be worth less.

Even in the day to day business of new car sales, a bone stock trade is worth more than one with wheels, exhaust, engine mods etc. When customers would ask me how much I added for the wheels I would tell them I deducted but would gladly give them their wheels to sell if the would put back the originals and then I might pay a little more for the car if the tires are good.

If you plan to resell your Stude within a few years of your purchase don't change it, besides the mods themselves probably won't give you back what you spent and chances are they will also lower the overall value.

I'm with JDP on the Avanti II for modifying, easier and faster if it's done right.

That being said I've modified almost every old car I've owned ( I'm leaving the NYer alone )and decided that I'm better off buying cars that are modified already because I pay less and I can pick ones that might have changes made that I would make. It costs me less and I don't feel guilty afterwards.


ErnieR



http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/AvantiR2/track.jpg
On its way to a 15.097 Spring 2006.

JBOYLE
06-12-2009, 05:43 PM
quote:Originally posted by Thomas63R2
What will probably continue to happen with Avantis is that some people will get starry eyed and start a restoration on an Avanti that should more rightly be parted out. For odd resons Avanti project cars seem to attract people with little auto restoration experience. Not every car can, or should be, "saved."


Agree.
Avantis seem to have a very high survival rate. By looking at the SDC and AOAI rosters, it looks like well over half survive...(if anyone has more exact figures, I'd love to see them).
I hate to see any car euthanized, but there are enough Avantis to go around even if some marginal projects are parted out.

63 Avanti R1 2788
1914 Stutz Bearcat
(George Barris replica)

Washington State

edpjr
06-12-2009, 06:02 PM
I just don't have the time or the mechanical/electrical skills (I'm a professional engineer who can't fix anything)to do the repair work myself. I spend 40+ hrs a week doing engineering work and on weekends I help run my two retail businesses. Fortunately, I do have a younger brother that went to school to learn auto mechanics and body work. While he can't paint a car, he is a wizard at fixing about anything else on them. I also have a friend that runs a NAPA store and I've been surprised at some of the Studebaker parts he's still been able to come up with for me. However, the 63-64 Avanti is a rare animal by any measure. With only 4500 made, I'd be curious just to know about how many survive to this day? And, from my limited experience, there are some Avanti parts like original chrome wiper arms, NOS prestolite dual point distributors and nice rear bumpers that are darn hard to find. So I still say that anyone planning to buy an Avanti that needs work, let alone restoration, better be ready to spend some real $$$ and do a lot of searching for key parts. BTW, I am not new to the Studebaker world, I'm a returnee. I bought my 1st Stude in 1973. It was a rough 1953 coupe with a flathead 6 cyl and auto trans. I was also a member of SDC from '73-75.