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Terri Smith
10-01-2008, 08:10 PM
Hi,

What criteria would you follow when deciding if a car is worth restoring or if it should make the ultimate and generous sacrifice to become a donor car?

Looking forward to hearing your opinions.

Thanks,
Terri

JDP
10-01-2008, 08:31 PM
Simple. Take the resale value for the car at the level you intend to restore it. Add how much money, if any you are willing to lose to that figure. If you can't restore it for that figure, part it out or sell it to someone with deep pockets and a big heart.:)

JDP/Maryland
"I'm a great believer in luck and I find the harder I work, the more I have of it."
Thomas Jefferson

bams50
10-01-2008, 08:45 PM
Too many variables to give an answer to that. Not only are year, model, body style, equipment, starting condition, scarcity, and price all factors, there are things like personal preference, sentimentality, and just whether a given car gives you a kick. That all is topped off by resto cost... most restorations end up costing more than their market value; some more than others. To me personally, knowing I've saved a car for future enjoyment is worth quite a lot; your mileage may vary.

I'd think the best way is to bring the particulars to this forum, along with pictures, and get some input from the members. Factor that in, but it would only be a small part of the decision. At some point you have to custom-tailor the decision to yourself only.

Keep in mind two things: Most anything you need for most all Studes is available; and, they ain't makin' 'em anymore!;)

Robert (Bob) Andrews Owner- Studebakeracres- on the IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131

"Some people live for the rules, I live for exceptions"- 311

"Do they all not, by mere virtue of having survived as relics of a bygone era, amass a level of respect perhaps not accorded to them when they were new?"

clarkwd
10-01-2008, 09:29 PM
Everyone is different. I have just started on my third car that should have been put in a crusher and actually ended my retirement and went back to work to pick up some spending cash to pay for the job. (I am opposed to spending the kids orthodontia money on fixing up old cars) For what I'm going to spend on it I could have had a nice vacation to the west and gotten a car shipped back here. But thats not what I wanted. I enjoy the challenge of saving something. I think the most important question is what do you want to do and what will you enjoy. If you want to tinker and have some time and some money, save it.
Bill

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z293/clarkwd/DriverSideCutoutSmall.jpg

Terri Smith
10-01-2008, 09:30 PM
Hi again,

The car in question is a 1963 GT Hawk. It's not in terrible condition but has lots of bondo, poorly done rust repair & a seized 289 engine. The interior is decent, it has front disc brakes and is mostly complete. Other Studebaker folks have looked at it and recommended a frame up restoration. I am a beginner and this project is more than I can handle for a first time restorer.

I have dismantled other cars, so I already know how to do that. The decision to part out those cars was much easier as the frames and bodies were very rusty and not safe.

I just don't want to feel guilty later for pronouncing her dead before she has truly passed.

thanks, Terri

showbizkid
10-01-2008, 09:40 PM
Late GTs are pretty awesome cars. I vote to save when possible... but it's also important to know your limits!

Maybe instead of parting you could sell it complete to one of those guys who think it should be restored?


[img=left]http://members.cox.net/clarknovak/lark.gif[/img=left]

Clark in San Diego
'63 F2/Lark Standard
http://studeblogger.blogspot.com
www.studebakersandiego.com

JDP
10-01-2008, 09:47 PM
I bought 3 GT's in at least that good of condition for around 2-3K and sold them all, but at least one maybe two were later parted out.

JDP/Maryland
"I'm a great believer in luck and I find the harder I work, the more I have of it."
Thomas Jefferson

rockne10
10-01-2008, 10:29 PM
Without knowing what you've invested so far:

I've parted out several vehicles that were beyond my wherewithal, only to find out later that other folks would have jumped at the chance to do the restorations: 1950 Land Cruiser, 1960 Convertible & 1963 Cruiser.

If you think the task is more than you want, better candidates await. Explore the market for what you have and look for a project more to your liking. Worse projects than yours have been lovingly resurrected by the person who's ready for the task. You admirably admit you're not ready for this one. Offer it to someone who is and find yourself a project you will truly enjoy.


Brad Johnson
Pine Grove Mills, Pa.
http://s57.photobucket.com/albums/g233/rockne10/Rockne/th_Rocknegauges.jpg'33 Rockne 10, '51 Commander Starlight, '53 Commander Starlight

bams50
10-01-2008, 10:38 PM
Terri- My reply was like a general outline. Now that you've given a specific scenario, I'll add this: If you start from nothing, buy the nicest one you can afford. If your skill or ambition level is low, save up for one that matches. Keep in mind, the hardest to sell are the ones that have been taken apart and given up on.

Robert (Bob) Andrews Owner- Studebakeracres- on the IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131

"Some people live for the rules, I live for exceptions"- 311

"Do they all not, by mere virtue of having survived as relics of a bygone era, amass a level of respect perhaps not accorded to them when they were new?"

A1956GoldenHawk
10-01-2008, 10:39 PM
quote:Originally posted by Terri Smith

Hi,

What criteria would you follow when deciding if a car is worth restoring or if it should make the ultimate and generous sacrifice to become a donor car?

Oh that's too easy!:)

IF ...you have money, restore it ...IF you need money, part it out! :D

The older I get ...the better I was!

rockne10
10-01-2008, 10:50 PM
quote:the hardest to sell are the ones that have been taken apart and given up on.
What he said!

54-61-62
10-02-2008, 09:02 AM
quote:Originally posted by Terri Smith

Hi,

What criteria would you follow when deciding if a car is worth restoring or if it should make the ultimate and generous sacrifice to become a donor car?

Looking forward to hearing your opinions.

Thanks,
Terri



Here is my criteria:

A) Rust
b) Rust
C) Rust
D) Rust
E) Rust
F) Rust

Well, you get the idea. However, even if you have a solid car, there are other factors if you don't own your own parts pile of usable mechanical parts. I've seen cars with perfect bodies from out west, but had about 800,000 miles on them and there was just no serviceable life left in the drivetrain or suspension and with a ton of stress cracks in the frame. I remember how shocked I was the first time I saw a studebaker engine out west that had been bored .030 and worn out again. Since I live in the salt-belt, I just assumed that on all Studebakers the bodies fell off before the engines ever wore out!

55s
10-02-2008, 04:39 PM
Yes, rust can be one of the biggest factors. However, I agree that many cars from the "salt belt" are often better in other ways. In addition, many cars in the salt belt were not actually driven in the salt, or have been imported into the salt belt.

For example, almost all of my steering wheels are intact. These alone can cost $800 to replace. Motors are available with only 50K, instead of 300K. Interiors, including leather interiors, are not rotted out. In fact, I have some cars with original, never sat upon, upholstery. (Covered since new). Even tires can be expensive to replace.

In other words, Rust bucket belt cars can be cheaper to have fun with than burned out Texas or California cars with hundreds of thousands of miles and severe sunburn.

I also advocate that perfect is not required to enjoy yourself. Its all about the satisfaction you derieve from the eclectic bunch of car nuts you meet, and the thrill of getting something to go.

Some people that must have cars judged have spent fortunes restoring cars to perfect, but perfection does not last. Even the best restored car will start to show its age in a few years of driving. Some people have spent 10s of thousands on cars worth much less.

You can buy new metal fenders for some models and fibreglass fenders for hawks. Fibreglass fenders are OK with me. Some people and judges are quick to frown on fibreglass parts, but they look good and they don't rust and you can drive them in the rain. This is, after all a Studebaker Drivers' Club.

I applaud CASOs that paint their cars with Tremclad and rollers, do their own upholstery, use some Bondo (actually the aluminized metal filler is much better), struggle with innovative parts and minor modifications. By the way, about 20 years ago, when I was a judge at an event, the Best Paint award was won by a Tremclad-sprayed car. (Unknown until after he accepted the award)

One time, I took 2 weeks of my holidays and completely restored a car, excluding chrome and paint - the car was sent to Maaco in primer after I did any bodywork. 1955 Commander Coupe came out fine - see picture in in car pictures on this site.

In the end, you don't need to spend more a lot to have fun driving it. Just be sure to put a budget together first.

Paul

Scott
10-02-2008, 04:57 PM
Resale value has NOTHING to do with it. What matters is if you WANT to restore it. Why can't people get this through their heads? This is a HOBBY for most of us. It is not rational and it is not a business.

Why do we have a hobby? To make money at the end of the day? Some hobby if you always have to look at the exit strategy.

If it's a rust bucket, but you love the car, restore it! If it's pristine and just needs a little work - restore it! But only if you WANT to. Asking what other people think is a little like asking somebody whether they think you should put your old dog down. Look to your own feelings.

Man, I just want to spit. Do it for the learning experience, do it for the fun of it, do it for the challenge of it. If there's nothing like that calling to you, then part it out. Someone will use the parts and fix up a car that someone DOES love.

JBOYLE
10-02-2008, 05:12 PM
quote:Originally posted by Scott

Resale value has NOTHING to do with it. What matters is if you WANT to restore it. Why can't people get this through their heads? This is a HOBBY for most of us. It is not rational and it is not a business.



Exactly!
When a golfer dies does his estate expect the fairway fairey to
reimburse all the green fees spent over the years?

For most of us, it's the DOING that provides recreation. It costs money to kill time in any hobby.
Anything not made up in the [u]ultimate</u> sale of the car should be chalked up to "recreation".

We're lucky in that at the end of the day, our hobby means there is [u]something</u> tangible that can be sold to recoup some expenses.
Try that with tennis, NFL season tickets, fishing, bird watching, etc, etc.

Sometimes, it seems everyone just looks at the bottom line. Thanks
B-J!



63 Avanti R1 2788
1914 Stutz Bearcat
(George Barris replica)

Washington State

bams50
10-02-2008, 05:20 PM
quote:Originally posted by 55s

Yes, rust can be one of the biggest factors. However, I agree that many cars from the "salt belt" are often better in other ways. In addition, many cars in the salt belt were not actually driven in the salt, or have been imported into the salt belt.

For example, almost all of my steering wheels are intact. These alone can cost $800 to replace. Motors are available with only 50K, instead of 300K. Interiors, including leather interiors, are not rotted out. In other words, Rust bucket belt cars can be cheaper to have fun with than burned out Texas or California cars with hundreds of thousands of miles and severe sunburn.



EXACTLY right, Paul. I agree with the rest of your post- it's all right on. But the above portion is the dirty little secret about Western/Southern cars. I wrote this recently in another thread:

Another point is the myth that West Coast cars always mean rust-free. To us Northeasters, we think of rust-free as solid floors, frame, fenders, etc. and they mostly are. But we don't realize that these cars still rust, but in areas that are sometimes more difficult to fix! Roof edges, upper edges of doors and quarters, etc. If you're buying a WC car that needs complete resto, chances are you'll have some rust anyway! Look at Bob Peterson's Daytona (in CA)- definitely very solid, but it still needs a floor on the driver's side; maybe not to the extent of a native NE car, but a serious repair just the same. My Lark wagon came from Bob's place in CA; but it had rusted floors requiring a piece on each side measuring about 12"x18". Had I bought a WC car for $500 thinking it would be rust-free, and paying all that shipping, that would have been a real bummer...

Another thing I didn't grasp was how completely the interiors are destroyed out there! Frequently I see old cars here with at least serviceable interiors needing floor repair and carpet to make a decent driver; most cars from there have everything completely baked to a crisp. Sometimes it might be worth it to weld floors than have to figure out where to get- and R&R- and pay for- every single part of an interior[xx(]

Yes, WC cars are good starting points, no doubt about it; I have some, and I have one coming now from CA. But they're not always the only answer;)


Robert (Bob) Andrews Owner- Studebakeracres- on the IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131

"Some people live for the rules, I live for exceptions"- 311

"Do they all not, by mere virtue of having survived as relics of a bygone era, amass a level of respect perhaps not accorded to them when they were new?"

bams50
10-02-2008, 08:08 PM
quote:Originally posted by JBOYLE



We're lucky in that at the end of the day, our hobby means there is [u]something</u> tangible that can be sold to recoup some expenses.
Try that with tennis, NFL season tickets, fishing, bird watching, etc, etc.



Try the racing I used to do- $40K race car, $35K engine, $700 per race for tires, $200 fuel, avg. for damage repair for season $5K. At the end of the season the engine needs a $4K refresh, car needs $3K body replacement, etc. An that's if it doesn't get destroyed in a crash- which happens[xx(]

So when I buy a Stude and spend money on it, Linda loves it... the girl's got real perspective;)

Robert (Bob) Andrews Owner- Studebakeracres- on the IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131

"Some people live for the rules, I live for exceptions"- 311

"Do they all not, by mere virtue of having survived as relics of a bygone era, amass a level of respect perhaps not accorded to them when they were new?"

bob40
10-03-2008, 02:03 PM
Man, I just want to spit. Do it for the learning experience, do it for the fun of it, do it for the challenge of it

Let us know how how the learning experience is going when your $15K in a 7K car.

StudeDave57
10-03-2008, 02:16 PM
quote:Originally posted by Scott

Resale value has NOTHING to do with it. What matters is if you WANT to restore it. Why can't people get this through their heads? This is a HOBBY for most of us. It is not rational and it is not a business.

Why do we have a hobby? To make money at the end of the day?
Some hobby if you always have to look at the exit strategy.

If it's a rust bucket, but you love the car, restore it! If it's pristine and just needs a little work - restore it!
But only if you WANT to. Asking what other people think is a little like asking somebody whether they think you should put your old dog down. Look to your own feelings.
Thank you thank you thank you!!!

I could not have said it better myself!!! If this Forum was like a few others I belong to- I would have added you to my 'respected users' list by now... ;) :)

StudeDave '57 [8D]
San Diego, Ca. (for now...)
San Diego County SDC
www.studebakersandiego.com

'54 Commander Regal 4dr 'Ruby'
'57 Parkview 'Betsy' (she's a 2dr wagon...)
'57 Commander DeLuxe 2dr 'Baby'
'57 Champion Custom 2dr 'Jewel'
'58 Packard sedan 'Cleo'
'65 Cruiser 'Sweet Pea'

Part owner of the one and only
'55 PROTOTYPE panel van

bams50
10-03-2008, 03:50 PM
Scott, I don't get what spitting has to do with it- do it if you want, I guess[:o)]

I do agree about saving the cars. I occasionally get a little teasing about saving some old derelict; no doubt there will always be those dollar-and-cent types. If one only sees the hobby from that angle, it's them that are missing out on the real heart of the hobby.

But that doesn't mean they're out of line if that's what they're about. They have a right to look at the cars through that prism; I like it, because that leaves more room for the rest of us!

Robert (Bob) Andrews Owner- Studebakeracres- on the IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys!)
Parish, central NY 13131

"Some people live for the rules, I live for exceptions"- 311

"Do they all not, by mere virtue of having survived as relics of a bygone era, amass a level of respect perhaps not accorded to them when they were new?"

mbstude
10-03-2008, 04:07 PM
What Scott said.

Yep, I've sunk a lot of money in a '63 Daytona hardtop. If the car hadn't have been my Mom's first car, I doubt I'd have given it a second look. If her first car was a '58 Champion 4 door instead of the Daytona, well, I'd be sinking money into a '58 Champion 4 door. For some, it has nothing to do with resale value. My Daytona, that car won't ever be sold. It may sit in the shop apart for a while, but it's not going anywhere. I've not added up any receipts, and I'm not going to. It doesn't really matter what it costs to bring that one back to life. I gotta do it.

And rusty metal can be replaced. OK, don't go buy a $50 rust bucket that falls apart on the trailer, but don't think you have to start with a pristine California car either. Sure, that would be easier, but some people find the repairs fun and challenging. Even after the horror stories, I've enjoyed replacing the trunk floor in the Daytona, and figuring things out as I go.

BTW, don't tell anyone, but my daily driver is an ugly Lark 4 door, 6 cylinder with 3 speed. I love the thing, and I wouldn't think twice about restoring it to like-new condition. (But I won't. It's way too much fun as it is. :D)

The windows stay down, the white walls stay clean, and it stays on the road. That's it. [^]

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk179/1959S2D/quadraportle002a.jpg

Matthew Burnette
Hazlehurst, GA

studelover
10-03-2008, 04:36 PM
I like what you are doing with that car. Mine looked just like that when I started and it turned out ok. Do it for youdon't worry about what others think.anything worth having is worth working for.
quote:Originally posted by clarkwd

Everyone is different. I have just started on my third car that should have been put in a crusher and actually ended my retirement and went back to work to pick up some spending cash to pay for the job. (I am opposed to spending the kids orthodontia money on fixing up old cars) For what I'm going to spend on it I could have had a nice vacation to the west and gotten a car shipped back here. But thats not what I wanted. I enjoy the challenge of saving something. I think the most important question is what do you want to do and what will you enjoy. If you want to tinker and have some time and some money, save it.
Bill

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z293/clarkwd/DriverSideCutoutSmall.jpg


Studebakers forever!

fiftystarlightcoupe
10-03-2008, 08:28 PM
I must not be playing with a full deck because I think the "build" is the best part. It's nice to find a car that has never been touched before, regardless of condition. There's something about going over an unrestored car once you get it home and appreciate the fact that it somehow survived for decades - and it's gonna make a comeback. I'm not made of money, but I don't keep track of how much I spend on it - or care about how long it takes to get it on the road.

tomnoller
10-04-2008, 08:40 AM
50SLC, my sentiments eggzackly! I keep all the receipts...but don't want to know the tally. I hear those sage words of Walt Thompson "It's cheaper than therapy" which, thankfully, my bride understands.
Restoring tired iron to me is more fun than a 'round-the-world cruise. Especially when it's a Studebaker.

Western Washington, USA

rusty65
10-04-2008, 07:40 PM
I like what a lot of you guys are saying.If you want to restore/tinker/cobble together your Studebaker, than do it!!(The only exception would be if the frame is trashed,and you could part it out to another Stude fan IMHO.)All of us aren't blessed with big bank accounts,a garage with the ultimate tool collection,or Chip Foose design skills.This is what makes Studebaker people different.We don't need a numbers-matching red and black big block powered SoopSoop to be cool.We run what we brung!!If I would add up all the receipts for my 65 (monument to double work)Daytona,I'd probably (word that rhymes with spit).It's all about enjoyment.AND the cars.......is it just me,or when I see a car advertised as a California,Arizona or New Mexico car, the owner resides in Minnesota, PA or upstate New York??Enjoy your Studebaker!!!

JBOYLE
10-04-2008, 09:55 PM
quote:Originally posted by tomnoller
I hear those sage words of Walt Thompson "It's cheaper than therapy"...

A few years ago in Texas, I was doing a TV story on the CAF's WWII Curtiss Helldiver (the only airworthy one in the world), and an old guy was in the next hangar changing the plugs on a friends T-6/SNJ which he races at Reno.

I asked the old guy why he was still working on planes...
"It beats going to titty bars", he said with a straight face.

Now whenever I want to spend money on something, my wife and I say the same thing.

63 Avanti R1 2788
1914 Stutz Bearcat
(George Barris replica)

Washington State

madmike
10-04-2008, 10:02 PM
quote:Originally posted by bob40

Man, I just want to spit. Do it for the learning experience, do it for the fun of it, do it for the challenge of it

Let us know how how the learning experience is going when your $15K in a 7K car.
Oh c'mon bob! There has NEVER been a car that I have spent time and money on modifying/fixing/restoring where the total invested did not go WAAAYY past what I could ever hope to recoup in a fire sale.
The experience gained in doing what was required to get 'em that way has turned out to be worth way more than some hourly rate I would've put on my time spent to do it.
The hobby can't be leveraged by what you spend vs what it is worth UNLESS you intend to sell it from the get-go.

Don't talk about what you are going to do,... talk about what you have DONE.

Terri Smith
10-05-2008, 12:14 PM
Hello everyone,

This has been a most interesting conversation! I would like to thank everyone for their thoughtful responses. I have learned that Studebaker owners are a diverse and passionate lot. My eyes have been opened to many different perspectives when evaluating classic cars and I appreciate the insight.

Thanks again,
Terri