tin versus glas and never the twain shall meet

[PackardV8]

Greetings, SDCrs,

Just reading Russ' post today about two bargain Avanti in Phoenix got me to thinking about how opinions go on this site. Here's an observation and the expectation of more wide-ranging discussion.

Our own JDP is our #1 on-line Stude trader, but he has forever insured his place in SDC forum history with the quip, "Nothing's more expensive than a cheap Avanti."

While this would really apply to any old car, the Avanti has always polarized opinion. A few loved it, most hated it, but no one could be indifferent to the styling. That the mechanics and vehicle dynamics didn't live up to the excitement of the styling reduced its supporters still further.

Here's my observation: Many SDCrs will pay the same or more to buy and even drive a tin car, especially a C/K, in far worse cosmetic condition than the maligned "cheap Avanti" and then feel no compunction about piling on with JDP's truism whenever an Avanti obviously needing work comes up for sale. True or false?

thnx, jack vines

PackardV8

[N8N]

eh, in my case, false. I've seen very few Avantis for sale that I could afford that weren't either major projects or parts cars.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight

http://members.cox.net/njnagel

[DEEPNHOCK]

I think you are a troublemaker
That's like asking if you want to go out with the fat sister, or the skinny sister.[:0]
You can't win here with whatever choice you make, so ignore the audience and go do what makes you happy[]
Jeff[8D]

quote:Originally posted by PackardV8

<snip>
Here's my observation: Many SDCrs will pay the same or more to buy and even drive a tin car, especially a C/K, in far worse cosmetic condition than the maligned "cheap Avanti" and then feel no compunction about piling on with JDP's truism whenever an Avanti obviously needing work comes up for sale. True or false?

http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock

[JBOYLE]

Two points (from an admitted Avanti owner):

Yes, it's true that:
Avantis are expensive to restore. They have higher performance engines than most Studes plus disk brakes and many have systems (AC, etc) not found on many other cars of the period. Complexity and modern features come at a price...(Model Ts ..or most trucks...don't have PS, PB, AC..so guess what, you don't have to restore those expensive systems Not having anything saved me a fortune on my Bearcat).

Many Avantis have been neglected over the past 45 years.(Their relatively low value hasn't made it financially worthwhile to restore them). So a lot out there are projects. Even great restored cars are cheap compared to other muscle/personal luxury coupes.

BUT:
Many of their systems aren't THAT much more expensive than their more basic Stude brothers...after all they share many of the same systems.
Restoring a ratty 57 GH to show condition wouldn't be cheap either.

And you don't see people spending stupid money on body rust repairs. I'm not sure if their frames are any worse than any post 53 Stude. How many times do we see people on this forum griping about rusty floors, trunks, front fenders?

So IMHO, JDP's advice is fairly sound...but I don't think he meant it as a cheap shot against Avantis.
The same can be said for restoring ANY car.

PS: If he did mean it as a cheap shot...I'll note he promptly cashed the check I sent him for my new interior kit...

63 Avanti R1 2788
1914 Stutz Bearcat
(George Barris replica)

Washington State

[warrlaw1]

I'm on my second 55 Coupe. The first was a C code and it was put together with fiberglass matting and pop riveted coke cans (30 years ago). Now I'm doing a K-code and thanks to Classic Enterprises my doors will stay closed and my seat won't be rockin'. If you love your car, and Avantis need love too, you'll do the right thing.

[Swifster]

I like both. An early Avanti II that I saw in '69 while visiting Houston with my family (I was 5) was the first car to really grab my attention and stoke my automotive fires. At some point I'd love to get an Avanti. Make that an Avanti II. I'd probably look at Chevy power and be seduced by a wayward LS2 [}].

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom - Mulberry, FL

1964 Studebaker Daytona - 289 4V, 4-Speed (Cost To Date: $2125.60)

[JDP]

You are correct, the quip was not meant as a cheap shot, just a warning. Again, if you buy a cheap Avanti, needing paint, interior and maybe hog troughs or frame and more, you'll find out for yourself. With decent cars trading in the 10-15K range, the 5K car will end up seeming less a bargain then you thought based on my hard learned lessons. Take the 6K Avanti II as a example and add 3-5K for hog troughs and maybe frame before you even get warm.
I won't even buy a Avanti with a rough interior with all it's warped cardboard panels. There must be dozens of little vinyl bits that are hard to install.

JDP/Maryland

[PackardV8]

Thanks for the replies.
As Jeff alluded and as I always say: "Your car, your money, your decision," but on this forum we are continually asked for advice. My point was and is to ask if my perception is correct - of those on the forum, many will leap to advocate for investing in saving the rustiest and rattiest of the C/K/GT cars while warning against a similar or less-trashed Avanti.

In the process of finishing a custom C-body and bringing along an Avanti, I would say, other than the AC, which no C/K-body had OEM, an average Avanti can be brought to presentable, drivable condition for the same or less money than an average east-of-the-Mississippi C/K/GT. JMHO, but an R2 Avanti usually costs less to restore than the typical eastern '57-58 GH/'58 PH or '64 Super Hawk.

In the end, as Bob Dylan says, "Nothing was revealed," but I did thing it worth thinking about.

thnx, jack vines




PackardV8

[studegary]

quote:Originally posted by PackardV8

Thanks for the replies.

In the process of finishing a custom C-body and bringing along an Avanti, I would say, other than the AC, which no C/K-body had OEM, an average Avanti can be brought to presentable, drivable condition for the same or less money than an average east-of-the-Mississippi C/K/GT. JMHO, but an R2 Avanti usually costs less to restore than the typical eastern '57-58 GH/'58 PH or '64 Super Hawk.

thnx, jack vines




PackardV8

C/K models did come with factory installed air conditioning. True, it still looks like an add-on/dealer installed unit, but A/C was a factory option on some C/Ks. Even in an Avanti, the A/C is not an integrated unit, but is just like an add-on unit except that the unit is built into the center stack.

Gary L.
Wappinger, NY

SDC member since 1968
Studebaker enthusiast much longer

[PackardV8]

Hi, Gary,

You are, of course, correct. Packard was the first manufacturer to offer OEM AC, around 1939 and Studebaker was the last. What was it in C/K, around 1959? I've never actually seen AC on a factory build sheet for a C/K, but it did exist on the option sheet. By the time the '62 GTs came along, it was not as unknown. Anyone venture a guess as to the percentage of C/K cars with AC?

Next, someone will take me to task for differentiating GT Hawks from the earlier K-bodies, but to me, they are completely different animals.

thnx, jack vines.

PackardV8

[JDP]

I think 1956-57 was the first year for C-K's with factory air.

JDP/Maryland

[mbstude]

Not a great pic, but here's a '58 Golden Hawk with factory (dealer?) air. Yes, it has the power steering pump driven off of the generator.



Matthew Burnette
Hazlehurst, GA

[PackardV8]

IIRC, the '56 President could theoretically be had with AC, but I've never seen any C/K earlier than '58 with factory AC. Can anyone document a '56 or '57 build sheet with AC?

thnx, jack vines

PackardV8

[JDP]

A quick search found one 56 Golden Hawk with AC was built.
http://www.1956goldenhawk.com/, and I've seen a few 57's.

JDP/Maryland

[PackardV8]

Hi, JDP,

I will defer to your experience with '57 GH with AC.

I've seen Frank's list showing one '56J with AC built, but as Frank Ambrogio himself says,

quote:While researching those production orders, it became increasingly obvious that they do contain many errors. There were also many items listed which raised some questions.

It might have been built just that way, but I'm still waiting for more documentation and confirmation. FWIW, there are a couple of '56J owners with the Packard Caribbean 2x4bbl intakes who will swear the original owner bought it that way.

We've all seen many Studes advertised with "Factory Air" and a quick look makes a dealer-installed or aftermarket unit.

thnx, jack vines.



PackardV8