Flanged rear axle R3 Avanti's

[JDP]

Given that you are using a B serial engine in a Avanti that is not one of the nine R3's why the obsession with the correct parts ? You can't see them, and the Fairborn kit is if anything stronger then the factory R3 unit. Not picking on you, but unless you are doing one of the nine, I don't get the concept. To be honest, I don't think the Fairborn axles would make any value difference on any of the nine either.
You are unlikely to find a R3 Avanti rear end, and converting a 65-66 to the Avanti style would be less original then the Fairborn conversion on a Avanti rear with the unique traction bar mounts.

JDP/Maryland
63 R2 SuperHawk (Caesar)
spent to date $54664,75
64 R2 GT (Sid)
spent to date $62,839.60
63 Lark 2 door
57 wagon
51 Commander
39 Coupe express
39 Coupe express (rod)

[HNCadet]

Flanged rear axle R3 Avanti's

I've searched everywhere I can find........can the group here point me to the documentation/pictures of actual and correct flanged rear axles used on the original R3 Avanti's, along with the correct rear brakes! were they the same as the 65-66 V8 Larks? 10" or 11" rear brakes? rear brake plates? If no documentation exists, are there pictures of examples available? I've gotten conflicting info and don't want to have to redo things later.

In case you're wondering, I'm placing the B92 R3 in one of my Avanti's and wish to bring the rest of the car up to the proper R3 standards. Realize I may have to re-manufacture certain components, that is not the issue, also I already understand that Phil Harris sells a flanged conversion, kit, but that it is not a correct replacement for the original design.

[Mike]

The Dec. '63 Avanti parts book, (black cover), shows all the special R3 parts, including the rear.
Mike M.

[HNCadet]

John, I guess I'm coming into this with a different mindset than with most everyone else here. Just because it's NOT a Factory built R3, doesn't mean that it can't be built into a "Factory Spec" R3 car. I am the proud owner of an extremely rare "0" miles R3 engine, not too many of those around anymore are there........well, I'm determined to see that engine placed into a surrounding chassis that's equivalent to what it should have been put in way back in 1963-64. I'm not going to race it, drive it daily, or put it up on a pedestal. I will take it to both Studebaker & Avanti meets so interested parties like myself will be able to see/hear what Studebaker/Granatelli Engineering was capable of 44 years ago! What I'm asking for here is assistance from those that KNOW to help those that DON"T(me) put together the car I really want, so please, if you have the information can you share it? It's not that I'm saying your wrong, it's that I'm building a "Factory Spec R3", no different than all the other muscle car builders are doing to L-88 Corvettes, LS6 Chevelles etc. Although it's nice that it is a Studebaker.


Mike, I see the rear axle data, but can't seem to find any "descriptions/pictures" of the R3 rear brakes anywhere and that's where I'm stuck. What were they? what drums did they use? etc. Don't see callouts on Plate 11-1.

Am I on the right track using a 65-66 flanged axle from a V8 car, cutting & welding the traction bar brackets is minor, getting the rest(brakes) is confusing without seeing what was actually done. I'm assuming 11" dia brakes, but how did they fit on the different hubs? There is no separate R3 callouts on Plate 14-1.

[nels]

Chuck, the backing plates and brakes are the same with the exception being that the diameter in the backing plate is larger in order to fit the bearing from the axle. The axle retainer is on the axle before the bearing is pressed on. The early/prototype R3/R4 and maybe some production cars had larger axle tubes. I think these rear ends where made from narrowed truck 44 units. I believe the regular production units used a larger diameter bearing than a tapered so the end of the tube would measure larger than a stock tapered unit. I'm pretty certain of this but would have to measure to be sure. Phil's axle conversion would be very very close to the original. A 65 and 66 unit would have 27 spline axles in place of the early 18(?) spline Avanti axle. The 27 spline axle is probably as strong or probably stronger than any of the early units or conversions. Phil's do have some advantage with modern metallergy but the 65 66 units have more splines to carry the load. Unless the unit you have is R3 you will probably have to go one of these ways I mentioned. If your rear is R3 you will have to have axles manufactured to fit.
With this info, you will have to decide which way you want to go.

[wally]

If I were fortunate enough to have a "crate" R3, and was ambitious enough to "clone" an Avanti as meticulously as yourself, I would opt to equip the original Avanti assembly with Fairborn axles. New axles have seen zero stress, which is definitely something to consider. I have had an old, high-mileage axle break under the power of a srong motor and high speed use, and it could've cost me my life. Another thing that I absolutely try to avoid is welding brackets onto a used housing. Tubing will move(warp), and unless you pay a top-notch expert to weld your housing and then straighten it, it will not be straight enough down the centerline--regardless of what some old time racers may tell you. Been through all of that. Besides, You've got your work cut out for you, so you may as well take the expedient--the specialty axles, and have peace of mind. Can't wait to see your project when it is finished...

"You Can't Have Everything--Where Would You Put It?" ---comedian Steven Wright

[Chicken Hawk]

I'm just guessing here but I think the closest you could come to an R 3 rear would be to find one out of a late '71 and up ('83?) Avanti. I think the standard 44 that most Studes come with had 2 1/2" axle tubes and the later Avanti and the R 3 are 2 3/4" and both have beefy flanged axles.

I'm going from memory here so I'll try to do some measuring tomorrow and if the tube sizes are different than what I remember, I'll post it tomorrow.

Ted

quote:Originally posted by nels

Chuck, the backing plates and brakes are the same with the exception being that the diameter in the backing plate is larger in order to fit the bearing from the axle. The axle retainer is on the axle before the bearing is pressed on. The early/prototype R3/R4 and maybe some production cars had larger axle tubes. I think these rear ends where made from narrowed truck 44 units. I believe the regular production units used a larger diameter bearing than a tapered so the end of the tube would measure larger than a stock tapered unit. I'm pretty certain of this but would have to measure to be sure. Phil's axle conversion would be very very close to the original. A 65 and 66 unit would have 27 spline axles in place of the early 18(?) spline Avanti axle. The 27 spline axle is probably as strong or probably stronger than any of the early units or conversions. Phil's do have some advantage with modern metallergy but the 65 66 units have more splines to carry the load. Unless the unit you have is R3 you will probably have to go one of these ways I mentioned. If your rear is R3 you will have to have axles manufactured to fit.
With this info, you will have to decide which way you want to go.

[JDP]

If Ted is correct, and I suspect he is,(it is Ted after all) I have a friend that's shot a few Avanti II's in the head. Even if he does not, it should not be hard to find a parts car.

JDP/Maryland
63 R2 SuperHawk (Caesar)
spent to date $54664,75
64 R2 GT (Sid)
spent to date $62,839.60
63 Lark 2 door
57 wagon
51 Commander
39 Coupe express
39 Coupe express (rod)

[leyrret]

Bob Johnstone's Avanti page has some information. Look under axle, dana corp letter

[Mike]

There's an indication of a flanged Avanti axle, other than the R3/4, in the Dec. '63 parts book. A third type of backing plates is listed for R1/2 with flanged axles. They use the small, 3/8" bolts; compared with the 1/2" R3/4.
I wonder if the part # for these is the same as the one for '65/'66 Studes with front disc brakes. The #'s are: 1562806, (right); and 1562807, (left). Can someone check?
If they are the same, it indicates the later flanged axle is different from the R3/4.
Mike M.

[StudeRich]

Yep Mike; you are right on! The '65-'66 Chassis Parts Catalog has the same part number and says: with Disc. Frt. brake-with flanged axle ALL models ('65-'66).

These are the only backing plates shown for this application, no serial number change or anything to indicate there was more than one "ON '65-'66's" anyway.

StudeRich
Studebakers Northwest
Ferndale, WA

[HNCadet]

Thanks to everyone for all the data posted here and in the PM's. As a final confirmation, I'll contact Andy Beckman and start an archives search for the prints of all the components. I've used Andy's services once already and he's been able track down all the correct air filter prints, so.....once more into the archives!

[sbca96]

Chuck, one other herdle you will have to overcome is what was posted a
while back on Racing Studebakers about the R3 upper control arm being
"sunk" into the frame for improved handling. There was a notch cut in
the frame and a special upper mount apparently. I think it was Alan
that served up this diddy. I would be interested in the info you find
on this, as I would like to improve what I can also.

Tom

'63 Avanti, zinc plated drilled & slotted 03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, soon: TKO 5-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves, 'R3' 276 cam, Edelbrock AFB Carb, GM HEI distributor, 8.8mm plug wires

[nels]

Tom,
The factory cars did not lower the ctrl arms. Probably was supposed to happen but it never did. The Bonneville cars had this modification and I believe Egbert's Avanti also.

[Chicken Hawk]

You're funny JP. I did check the R 3 axle housing tubes and the later Avanti ('71 or '72 and later) and both are 2 3/4" and the standard 44 is 2 1/2".

Also if there is any question, the '65 and '66 cars with flanged axles are not like the R 3 axles. The R 3 and later Avanti is 19 spline and the '65-'66 are 27 and not nearly as beefy.

Ted

quote:Originally posted by JDP

If Ted is correct, and I suspect he is,(it is Ted after all) I have a friend that's shot a few Avanti II's in the head. Even if he does not, it should not be hard to find a parts car.

JDP/Maryland
63 R2 SuperHawk (Caesar)
spent to date $54664,75
64 R2 GT (Sid)
spent to date $62,839.60
63 Lark 2 door
57 wagon
51 Commander
39 Coupe express
39 Coupe express (rod)