Tranny experts?

[epssax]

Drove my '55 coupe hardtop today after getting an exhaust system installed. Tranny first of all doesn't have a park. It doen't engage. Also the tranny is a three speed. When slowing down it won't downshift. It shudders and would kill the engine except I put it neutral and it goes into 1st gear. Next light, it does the same thing. Its not downshifting? Car has not been driven in 20 years. Car dealer(great mechanic)friend says to change fluid and drive 100 or so miles then do it again. Everything needs to be cleaned and freed up after sitting for so long. Anyone have an opinion? I doubt there are any Stude transmission repairmen in Louisville!

[mapman]

I will have to look it up again but the DG 250 has a valve in it that can stick and cause that problem. There was an earlier thread on this problem but I couldn't find it. There Is a good chance that following your friends advice will do the trick. When it is in third gear it is in direct drive with the power coming through a clutch and around the torque converter which is why it will stall if it doesn't downshift.
Rob

[mapman]

I will have to look it up again but the DG 250 has a valve in it that can stick and cause that problem. There was an earlier thread on this problem but I couldn't find it. There Is a good chance that following your friends advice will do the trick. When it is in third gear it is in direct drive with the power coming through a clutch and around the torque converter which is why it will stall if it doesn't downshift.
Rob

[55studeman]

Please clarify a little? Did you feel any downshift?

In the 3 speed there are two downsifts (A)from 3rd to 2nd and then (B)from 2nd to 1st. As you can see there are 3 possibilities, you can have a problem with ONLY A or ONLY B or have BOTH A&B. It's gets trickier if you have a problem with BOTH, because the absence of downsift in A will hide problems with B -but lets not worry about that for now.

Get up to speed to at least 40+ to ensure you are in 3rd -count the upsifts as you go, should be 2 of them. Then take your time slowing down, and listen/feel for any downsifts, especially around 10-20 MPH you should have one and then again below 5 mph. Then do it again (count the upsifts as you speed up) but this time slow down faster (not pannick stop but just faster), and see if you feel downsifts, sometimes they're sharper when slowing down faster. Do this a couple times and let us know. It sounds like a simple thing, but you really need to be sure of the symptoms when diagnosing trannies, it's the same thing you'd pay a guy at a shop to do, so why not do it yourself.

Typical problems with 3rd to 2nd is due to lack of disengagement of direct drive clutch -usual suspects are governor valve issues, converter shuttle valve sticking, and in the case of prolonged sitting, you can have a clutch plate that is sticking, there are also minor ones such as plugged or restricted clutch pressure bypass drains. (FYI cool fact: its not a problem due to a lack of 2nd engaging, because in the DG tranny 2nd does not disengage once the 3rd direct drive clutch engages: hence when you are in 3rd, 2nd is also engaged -yes both are engaged at the same time...you just don't use it or feel it because 3rd drives the output shaft faster and uses a freewheeling sprag to bypass 2nd. Then when 3rd disengages, the freewheeling sprag locks up and 2nd immediately takes over -pretty cool huh!)

Failure to shift from 2nd to 1st is due to lack or inefficient engagement of the low band -usual suspects are badly adjusted low band, worn low band, plugged or restricted pressure to the low band, and etc.

Please, drive the car some more and tell use how it "feels," any downsifts at all -at slow or fast deceleration?



Best Regards,
Eric West
"The Speedster Kid"
Sunny Northern California
Where the roads don't freeze over and the heat doesn't kill you.
And an open road is yours to have -only during non-commute rush hours 9am-4pm and 7pm to 7am (Ha, ha, ha)
55 Speedster "Lemon/Lime" (Beautiful)
55 President State Sedan (Rusty original, but runs great and reliable)

[55studeman]

Please clarify a little? Did you feel any downshift?

In the 3 speed there are two downsifts (A)from 3rd to 2nd and then (B)from 2nd to 1st. As you can see there are 3 possibilities, you can have a problem with ONLY A or ONLY B or have BOTH A&B. It's gets trickier if you have a problem with BOTH, because the absence of downsift in A will hide problems with B -but lets not worry about that for now.

Get up to speed to at least 40+ to ensure you are in 3rd -count the upsifts as you go, should be 2 of them. Then take your time slowing down, and listen/feel for any downsifts, especially around 10-20 MPH you should have one and then again below 5 mph. Then do it again (count the upsifts as you speed up) but this time slow down faster (not pannick stop but just faster), and see if you feel downsifts, sometimes they're sharper when slowing down faster. Do this a couple times and let us know. It sounds like a simple thing, but you really need to be sure of the symptoms when diagnosing trannies, it's the same thing you'd pay a guy at a shop to do, so why not do it yourself.

Typical problems with 3rd to 2nd is due to lack of disengagement of direct drive clutch -usual suspects are governor valve issues, converter shuttle valve sticking, and in the case of prolonged sitting, you can have a clutch plate that is sticking, there are also minor ones such as plugged or restricted clutch pressure bypass drains. (FYI cool fact: its not a problem due to a lack of 2nd engaging, because in the DG tranny 2nd does not disengage once the 3rd direct drive clutch engages: hence when you are in 3rd, 2nd is also engaged -yes both are engaged at the same time...you just don't use it or feel it because 3rd drives the output shaft faster and uses a freewheeling sprag to bypass 2nd. Then when 3rd disengages, the freewheeling sprag locks up and 2nd immediately takes over -pretty cool huh!)

Failure to shift from 2nd to 1st is due to lack or inefficient engagement of the low band -usual suspects are badly adjusted low band, worn low band, plugged or restricted pressure to the low band, and etc.

Please, drive the car some more and tell use how it "feels," any downsifts at all -at slow or fast deceleration?



Best Regards,
Eric West
"The Speedster Kid"
Sunny Northern California
Where the roads don't freeze over and the heat doesn't kill you.
And an open road is yours to have -only during non-commute rush hours 9am-4pm and 7pm to 7am (Ha, ha, ha)
55 Speedster "Lemon/Lime" (Beautiful)
55 President State Sedan (Rusty original, but runs great and reliable)

[55studeman]

Oh, and as to the lack of park -that's common on these old trannies. Many times the parking pawl gets broken off due to mis-use or it is not adjusted right (there's a little nut/screw accessed when the pan is removed that adjusts this). Either way it's not a big deal (except for the broken metal tab that sinks to the bottom of the governer extension case).

Youself, and everyone, should be using the parking brake anyway to hold a car in a parking spot -"park" in a tranny is only a backup, a failsafe -many many times weaker than the solid and powerful brakes on the tires. Always use the parking brake in old and NEW cars as well. I get really annoyed with fellow family members when I see them park without engaging the parking brake. I ask them, do you really want to park on this hill trusting the tranny to hold, or that do you realize that when the parking pawl breaks, you'll have an expensive tranny bill to fix it. They tend to get my point, but often they are quick to forget and go back to old habits.

Best Regards,
Eric West
"The Speedster Kid"
Sunny Northern California
Where the roads don't freeze over and the heat doesn't kill you.
And an open road is yours to have -only during non-commute rush hours 9am-4pm and 7pm to 7am (Ha, ha, ha)
55 Speedster "Lemon/Lime" (Beautiful)
55 President State Sedan (Rusty original, but runs great and reliable)

[55studeman]

Oh, and as to the lack of park -that's common on these old trannies. Many times the parking pawl gets broken off due to mis-use or it is not adjusted right (there's a little nut/screw accessed when the pan is removed that adjusts this). Either way it's not a big deal (except for the broken metal tab that sinks to the bottom of the governer extension case).

Youself, and everyone, should be using the parking brake anyway to hold a car in a parking spot -"park" in a tranny is only a backup, a failsafe -many many times weaker than the solid and powerful brakes on the tires. Always use the parking brake in old and NEW cars as well. I get really annoyed with fellow family members when I see them park without engaging the parking brake. I ask them, do you really want to park on this hill trusting the tranny to hold, or that do you realize that when the parking pawl breaks, you'll have an expensive tranny bill to fix it. They tend to get my point, but often they are quick to forget and go back to old habits.

Best Regards,
Eric West
"The Speedster Kid"
Sunny Northern California
Where the roads don't freeze over and the heat doesn't kill you.
And an open road is yours to have -only during non-commute rush hours 9am-4pm and 7pm to 7am (Ha, ha, ha)
55 Speedster "Lemon/Lime" (Beautiful)
55 President State Sedan (Rusty original, but runs great and reliable)

[studegary]

I think that the lockup torque convertor is not releasing properly. I would try changing the fluid, driving it some and then changing the fluid again. This may or may not cure your problem, but it is not much to invest before going into the transmission. When you change the fluid, be sure to drain BOTH the transmission pan and the torque convertor. A small minority of the fluid is in the transmission section and you won't do much good by only relacing that fluid. When I have had DG250s, I always changed the transmission fluid every year, no matter how much I drove the car. I think that most are used to modern cars and don't do this now. Like engine oil is cheaper than engines, transmission fluid is cheaper than transmissions.

Gary L.
Wappinger, NY

SDC member since 1968
Studebaker enthusiast much longer

[studegary]

I think that the lockup torque convertor is not releasing properly. I would try changing the fluid, driving it some and then changing the fluid again. This may or may not cure your problem, but it is not much to invest before going into the transmission. When you change the fluid, be sure to drain BOTH the transmission pan and the torque convertor. A small minority of the fluid is in the transmission section and you won't do much good by only relacing that fluid. When I have had DG250s, I always changed the transmission fluid every year, no matter how much I drove the car. I think that most are used to modern cars and don't do this now. Like engine oil is cheaper than engines, transmission fluid is cheaper than transmissions.

Gary L.
Wappinger, NY

SDC member since 1968
Studebaker enthusiast much longer

[epssax]

Studegary: My Mercedes diesel has a plug on the torque converter that allows for a total fluid change. Does Studebaker DG250 have this? Thanks

[epssax]

Studegary: My Mercedes diesel has a plug on the torque converter that allows for a total fluid change. Does Studebaker DG250 have this? Thanks

[55studeman]

Yes, it sure does have a T/C drain plug. Something I wish all modern trans would have.

Best Regards,
Eric West
"The Speedster Kid"
Sunny Northern California
Where the roads don't freeze over and the heat doesn't kill you.
And an open road is yours to have -only during non-commute rush hours 9am-4pm and 7pm to 7am (Ha, ha, ha)
55 Speedster "Lemon/Lime" (Beautiful)
55 President State Sedan (Rusty original, but runs great and reliable)

[55studeman]

Yes, it sure does have a T/C drain plug. Something I wish all modern trans would have.

Best Regards,
Eric West
"The Speedster Kid"
Sunny Northern California
Where the roads don't freeze over and the heat doesn't kill you.
And an open road is yours to have -only during non-commute rush hours 9am-4pm and 7pm to 7am (Ha, ha, ha)
55 Speedster "Lemon/Lime" (Beautiful)
55 President State Sedan (Rusty original, but runs great and reliable)

[epssax]

Guys, you are a multitude of valuable info.! I am going to change fluid (all of it), and will need two pan gaskets. My local NAPA has gaskets for a 2 speed, 15 hole gasket. My tranny is a 3 speed and probably different. Any ideas? I'm still blown away by the fact the torque converter has a drain and a lock-up. These cars were too good for the American public--they deserved the sh*t they were offered after Studebaker went down.

[epssax]

Guys, you are a multitude of valuable info.! I am going to change fluid (all of it), and will need two pan gaskets. My local NAPA has gaskets for a 2 speed, 15 hole gasket. My tranny is a 3 speed and probably different. Any ideas? I'm still blown away by the fact the torque converter has a drain and a lock-up. These cars were too good for the American public--they deserved the sh*t they were offered after Studebaker went down.